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Wait a minute... you don't think it's manipulative to be "teaching people the Dharma" without them knowing it, or without being upfront as to where this 'teaching' comes from? And, you criticize some of us, in this forum, for being 'rude' and don't want to expose your friends from a business forum to our antics? Hmmph. Interesting.
So you'll coddle them like sensitive children on one hand, (not exposing them to us) and yet deceive them on the other hand (not being upfront about what you are 'teaching' them)...
I think that's very manipulative, and frankly, odd.
If you take medicine, do you need to know where it was made, by whom it was made, the science behind the medicine etc. etc. or do you just want the benefits of the medicine? If someone asked what influenced my thoughts, where certain concepts originated, what motivated me to explore them, then I would share, otherwise would I not be doing the proselytising that some here had accused me of?
I'm not criticising anyone for being rude. My genuine feeling is - and I include your above response - that there can be a lack of patience, a quickness to judge, an inclination to distort or misrepresent what has been said, none of which is helpful. I don't think - and this is only my personal view - that what you've written above and the tone of what you've written above is a positive reflection of Buddhism. I'm not saying i'm right, and, of course, many here may say the same about me, such is personal perspective, but that is just what my experience here has been. I don't think it is too unreasonable. If you read through some of the posts here do you think they reflect the vast and rich qualities of Buddhism? I don't, but that is just me, and, to be clear, it is just a few posts in one thread. I'm sure that if I spent more time here my view would change, but in answering the point previously made, right now I wouldn't direct anyone here as an introduction to Buddhism.
I'm not sure in what way I am not upfront about what i'm teaching them. In that thread I was teaching them about anger in a very explicit and open manner... how am I deceiving them? And I certainly don't think that I was coddling anyone in that discussion. Alas, I am confused. On one hand I was being berated for pushing Buddhism (which I wasn't) and now you are upset because I won't direct them to a Buddhist forum...?
^^ I'm not upset, at all. Why do so many people think a disagreement means someone is "upset"? But I do believe you're not being honest - with yourself - or anyone else. This seems to be some sort of covert ego trip for you.... And I'll say no more.
Yes, people can be rude and uncompassionate here. Like anywhere else. People are people. That's the point. It's regular people who practice Buddhism. If someone is put off by that, they should find some new age, feel good approach where everyone smiles sweetly and never gets angry or hurt.
I spend a lot of time at a Buddhist centre and i've never experienced any of the Buddhists being rude there, not at all. But that's not the point. I don't mind that people might be rude in moments here, that is fine, but within the context of me introducing people here for their first exposure to Buddhism then, if I felt they were going to encounter rudeness, I wouldn't bother, because it could be hugely counter-productive. I don't think that is an unreasonable thing to say, especially as you've recognised that that rudeness does exist here. If you were going to introduce someone to Buddhism, would you introduce them to someone who you knew would be a shining example of all the virtues of Buddhism, or someone who knew might be rude, lacking compassion, patience, judgemental etc.? I don't want to upset anyone here, but I don't think i'm being that unreasonable.
^^ I'm not upset, at all. Why do so many people think a disagreement means someone is "upset"? But I do believe you're not being honest - with yourself - or anyone else. This seems to be some sort of covert ego trip for you.... And I'll say no more.
My apologies, the tone of your reply seemed somewhat agitated, but that really is not something I can know, so sorry if I mistook that.
As for my motives... Who knows? It is between me and my heart. If I am on some covert ego trip then I guess the karma will sort me out sooner or later. I understand some concerns some people have, and I understand the questions that arise, but I truly believe your conclusion is faulty... alas, my life will prove me right or wrong. We shall see! I've really appreciated your thoughts here though. I'm always open to questions and criticism, but I do think that on a forum like this people need to be given the benefit of the doubt. It is very difficult to judge someone based upon some words on a screen. If you met me in person, looked in my eyes, observed my behaviour, and then concluded that I was dishonest, egotistical etc. then maybe that is a bit fairer, but coming to those conclusions on here like this kind of just reinforces the comments i've just made about these forums.
To me, evangelical zeal always smells likes orgasmic emotionalism, the very antithesis of egolessness. Like fame, it is one of the most seductive delusions to try to address. I do not know if this is your particular koan or not, but your postings here certainly sound like it. Leaving the possibilities of it for "karma" to sort out doesn't take into consideration all the potential suffering that this particular tract may be bringing to others, right now. The compassionate approach would be to examine it now as a serious possible cause of suffering rather than relying on some future "wait & see" result.
dharma isnt meicine. its not a cure. its not an answer. its just another way of asking a question. "loving" the dharma is, pardon the pun, romanticising something that is otherwise neutral in its inherent properties. there's 84,000 roads to the truth for a reason: tha reason is because there is not one central bit of it that can be blanketed over all of humanity. it is a tailor made structure that cant be simplified into bullet points. the best way to presnt dharma to people is to LIVE it, and thereby you will be teaching by example. so, if dharma has taught you something, SHOW it. dont waste time trying to create an intelectual platform for your life choices. its in the do. not in the say. and if you are already helping people with your work, which is the very experience you can actually touch and feel, why fragment tha effort by worrying about something that is purely conceptual?; ie- the masses.
maybe your work doesnt fulfill you enough, so you need to create a bigger and beter use for the dharma you have learned? my suggestion: focus on your work, an yourself. in that way you are present within what you can acually control and experience and will therefore be more effective at your daily tasks. bring it back home. the world isnt goig anywhere. there is no pot of dharma gold at the end of the rainbow. there's usually just more rain.
I practice Buddhism. Insofar as it has had a significant impact on my daily life, people I engage with in the course of the day may or may not notice. If they do notice, and they genuinely inquire about my attitudes, I will say only briefly that I practice Buddhism. If they genuinely inquire further about it, I will tell them more. But I always try to gauge that person's interest and stop at a certain point. I may see this person again and the topic may or may not come up again.
The best way to share the Dharma is through one's own interactions with others, not sharing ideas. Doctrines, no matter in what terms they are couched, are just ideas when lifted out of the context of daily practice and experience.
The New Testament says to not put your lamp under a bowl, but let it shine for all to see. But the lamp Jesus was speaking of was not disseminating [Christian] doctrine, but sharing love and compassion. I think the same is true of the Dharma.
dharma isnt meicine. its not a cure. its not an answer. its just another way of asking a question. "loving" the dharma is, pardon the pun, romanticising something that is otherwise neutral in its inherent properties. there's 84,000 roads to the truth for a reason: tha reason is because there is not one central bit of it that can be blanketed over all of humanity. it is a tailor made structure that cant be simplified into bullet points. the best way to presnt dharma to people is to LIVE it, and thereby you will be teaching by example. so, if dharma has taught you something, SHOW it. dont waste time trying to create an intelectual platform for your life choices. its in the do. not in the say. and if you are already helping people with your work, which is the very experience you can actually touch and feel, why fragment tha effort by worrying about something that is purely conceptual?; ie- the masses.
maybe your work doesnt fulfill you enough, so you need to create a bigger and beter use for the dharma you have learned? my suggestion: focus on your work, an yourself. in that way you are present within what you can acually control and experience and will therefore be more effective at your daily tasks. bring it back home. the world isnt goig anywhere. there is no pot of dharma gold at the end of the rainbow. there's usually just more rain.
I practice Buddhism. Insofar as it has had a significant impact on my daily life, people I engage with in the course of the day may or may not notice. If they do notice, and they genuinely inquire about my attitudes, I will say only briefly that I practice Buddhism. If they genuinely inquire further about it, I will tell them more. But I always try to gauge that person's interest and stop at a certain point. I may see this person again and the topic may or may not come up again.
The best way to share the Dharma is through one's own interactions with others, not sharing ideas. Doctrines, no matter in what terms they are couched, are just ideas when lifted out of the context of daily practice and experience.
The New Testament says to not put your lamp under a bowl, but let it shine for all to see. But the lamp Jesus was speaking of was not disseminating [Christian] doctrine, but sharing love and compassion. I think the same is true of the Dharma.
I did not start reading Buddhist books because a salesman gave it to me. I found it myself-- in the usual route-- it took me twenty years of spiritual wandering before I discovered it. I imagine that is how it was for most people who have discovered Buddhist practice. Books are handy, especially for beginners not even knowing where to start or who to turn to. If someone I meet has a genuine interest in learning some aspect of other of Buddhist practice, I will gladly share it with them. But they have to express an interest in it first.
I believe it was the Buddha's practice that when someone had a question for him, he would not answer straightaway, but would put him off and wait for a second occasion for the questioner to ask again. He would put him off again-- and it was only after the third time he asked the Buddha that the Buddha responded with an answer-- satisfied that the questioner was truly interested.
The surest way I have discovered to touch the seed of awakening in another person is through acts of compassion, not through more ideas. Don't we have enough of those floating around?
I did not start reading Buddhist books because a salesman gave it to me. I found it myself-- in the usual route-- it took me twenty years of spiritual wandering before I discovered it. I imagine that is how it was for most people who have discovered Buddhist practice. Books are handy, especially for beginners not even knowing where to start or who to turn to. If someone I meet has a genuine interest in learning some aspect of other of Buddhist practice, I will gladly share it with them. But they have to express an interest in it first.
I believe it was the Buddha's practice that when someone had a question for him, he would not answer straightaway, but would put him off and wait for a second occasion for the questioner to ask again. He would put him off again-- and it was only after the third time he asked the Buddha that the Buddha responded with an answer-- satisfied that the questioner was truly interested.
The surest way I have discovered to touch the seed of awakening in another person is through acts of compassion, not through more ideas. Don't we have enough of those floating around?
You are sharing ideas. You are sharing ideas uninvited. Why? Because you care and you wish to see another human being be happy, and you have understanding that you feel will help. What is the difference between how you are engaging with me and how I wish to engage with others? Why do you not just 'set an example'?
Are my experiences uninvited here? I thought that's what this thread (and forum) was for. You practice Buddhism, as do I. We have common ground in this context to speak of that a stranger to Buddhism would not have. That's the difference.
I won't offer unsolicited advice to someone who has expressed no interest in such advice. You may do as you please, certainly-- but in my experience (with myself and with others), people don't like to be given unsolicited advice on a forum or thread unrelated to Buddhism. It tends to be counter-productive. Perhaps your experience is different. Such is life.
Have you read the thread I started at the UK Business Forums? No-one was coerced, manipulated or even encouraged to engage in the discussion. I haven't forced anything upon anyone. They saw the title of the thread and chose freely whether it was something of interest to them or not. Upon finding interest in the title they then freely chose to read the content of the opening post, having decided whether it was of interest to them or not they then decided to share their thoughts or not. Furthermore, I am not talking about Buddhism with anyone. I started a thread about anger - a subject most are familiar with. What specific issue do you have with any of this? What is the difference between me providing the option of a discussion there to, say, a Buddhist book being in Waterstone's where poor, unsuspecting, vulnerable folk may stumble across?
Maybe what you are doing will prove beneficial for individuals. Maybe it will not. Who knows? Based on my own experience, I would not do it. So we differ.
No, you invited his comments by posting in a public forum.
I was the first to post, pretty much positively, to your original post. Your argumentativeness about the topic and unwillingness to seriously consider opposing views now leads me to retract my initial support.
It is not always easy to tell when ones ego is being solidified as opposed to being dissolved especially around issues of Buddha/ Dharma. We only need to look back at all the times that we thought we were right, that look moronic to us now. We learn the words/ imitate the walk/ find focus/apply multiple layers of spiritual make up and are ready to do just about anything rather than take one more next step towards really letting go of any more identity.
The best hint that one is presently living a future joke in the making, is an inability to sincerely laugh at ourselves now!
Jeffrey, in all fairness to MAR, he is advocating keeping actual religion out of his postings. Technically, this can be done. When I was a principal, we subscribed to a daily message type of program which tackled universal concepts of peace and harmony and how to deal with people. Occasionally I had to edit them a bit, but mostly they were well-constructed and would appeal to people of any faith. Of course, MAR admits he is trying to "stealthly" spread the Dhamma. And it bothers me that he is doing that because their is no room in Buddhism for sneakiness.
Jeffrey, in all fairness to MAR, he is advocating keeping actual religion out of his postings. Technically, this can be done. When I was a principal, we subscribed to a daily message type of program which tackled universal concepts of peace and harmony and how to deal with people. Occasionally I had to edit them a bit, but mostly they were well-constructed and would appeal to people of any faith. Of course, MAR admits he is trying to "stealthly" spread the Dhamma. And it bothers me that he is doing that because their is no room in Buddhism for sneakiness.
But all I mean by 'stealth' is that I am removing any overt religious references so that the baby doesn't get thrown out with the bath water, so to speak. To me this is just being skilful. I know that many in those forums would ignore any discussion on anger if it was presented in a Buddhist context - that or they would attack Buddhism rather than focus on the subject, so why not just forget the Buddhist aspect, forget the spiritual aspect, and just focus on the message? It's not sneaky, it's not manipulative, it's wisdom, and it's what countless Dharma teachers have done for generation previous, i.e. finding new, appropriate ways to present the Dharma for the benefit of others.
No, you invited his comments by posting in a public forum.
I was the first to post, pretty much positively, to your original post. Your argumentativeness about the topic and unwillingness to seriously consider opposing views now leads me to retract my initial support.
It's a discussion! We have different views. I will always consider any view that I consider worthy of considering, and there have been a couple of moments within this thread that I have acknowledged some very good points, but - and this is just my view - there have been a lot of irrelevant, judgemental points, as well as some distortions and misrepresentations of what i've said, as well as some outright (and open) ignorance. If you want me to respect and acknowledge different views then share views that are worth respecting and acknowledging. I am completely fair, and I am completely open to counter views, but i'm not going to pander to anything. I am certainly argumentative, because, for me, these things matter, and in discussing these issues in an open and blunt manner we can all get to the crux of the matter and learn and grow from it. These things matter to me. Whether you believe me or not, and whether you support me or not. I want to help those who are suffering, and I want to find the very best ways and means of doing so. These discussions - as unpleasant as they can be - are very helpful in doing so, and I will reflect upon them, and I will give all feedback due thought given it is valid.
Maybe what you are doing will prove beneficial for individuals. Maybe it will not. Who knows? Based on my own experience, I would not do it. So we differ.
We do differ, and that is okay. In fact, it is beautiful. I am not asking anyone to be like me, and i'm not even asking anyone to validate me. Maybe with time and experience i'll see the error of my ways, or maybe i'll carve a path that helps many more people. Who knows? But I love people, and there is simply too much suffering on this planet to not make every effort that I can make to try and make a difference.
I encountered Christian missionaries many years ago in Africa. In their own eyes they were selfless and pious, buying their ticket into heaven by slumming in often inhospitable conditions. All I could see was their self-righteousness and vanity.
I'm not suggesting you are the same, but whenever we think we know best, and we need to tell the rest of humanity the "right" way, you can be sure there is a bit of superiority creeping in, whatever we might tell ourselves.
Calling not understanding or not agreeing DISTORTION is wrong. It is pure simple lack of agreement or not getting the implications of what is chosen to be said.
I encountered Christian missionaries many years ago in Africa. In their own eyes they were selfless and pious, buying their ticket into heaven by slumming in often inhospitable conditions. All I could see was their self-righteousness and vanity.
I'm not suggesting you are the same, but whenever we think we know best, and we need to tell the rest of humanity the "right" way, you can be sure there is a bit of superiority creeping in, whatever we might tell ourselves.
I'm certainly not telling anyone what is the 'right' way, i'm simply sharing a way in which we can give more people the option of having Dharma in their lives, i.e. to at least give them the option. If people reject it that is fine, but I don't feel that anyone should do without the option simply because others are unwilling to present it to them.
You know, the Buddha travelled town to town sharing his teachings in public parks. He didn't wait for anyone to come to him, he shared his teachings openly and gave everyone the option to hear the teachings and to take them or leave them. All I am suggesting - and all I am doing - is suggesting that we put the teachings out there and give people the choice. In doing so we might find that there is another 10% of humanity absolutely open to practicing the Dharma in their lives, but who previously had simply not been aware of its existence.
It baffles me that anyone sees any problem in this at all. Compassion drives us to reach out to people, and wisdom guides us to reach out appropriately. If someone were to take issue with how I am reaching out, then fine. But the fact that people are against me reaching out is ludicrous to me. If the Dharma was not to be shared then why didn't the Buddha just stay under his tree? Why walk town to town? Why share 84,000 teachings? Why were the teachings written down to be preserved?
Calling not understanding or not agreeing DISTORTION is wrong. It is pure simple lack of agreement or not getting the implications of what is chosen to be said.
I'm not calling not understanding or not agreeing distortion - i'm calling distortion distortion.
Jeffrey, in all fairness to MAR, he is advocating keeping actual religion out of his postings. Technically, this can be done. When I was a principal, we subscribed to a daily message type of program which tackled universal concepts of peace and harmony and how to deal with people. Occasionally I had to edit them a bit, but mostly they were well-constructed and would appeal to people of any faith. Of course, MAR admits he is trying to "stealthly" spread the Dhamma. And it bothers me that he is doing that because their is no room in Buddhism for sneakiness.
But all I mean by 'stealth' is that I am removing any overt religious references so that the baby doesn't get thrown out with the bath water, so to speak. To me this is just being skilful. I know that many in those forums would ignore any discussion on anger if it was presented in a Buddhist context - that or they would attack Buddhism rather than focus on the subject, so why not just forget the Buddhist aspect, forget the spiritual aspect, and just focus on the message? It's not sneaky, it's not manipulative, it's wisdom, and it's what countless Dharma teachers have done for generation previous, i.e. finding new, appropriate ways to present the Dharma for the benefit of others.
The people on the business forum may have a hard time separating out the religious aspect of your message. They will be well aware of your interest in Buddhism from some of your other postings there. I have no doubt about your sincerity for this work, but believe there is unmistakable ego invovled. the proof is in the fact that you are looking for validation here, and there also, btw. Why not work quietly, unannounced, below the radar.
why are there books on any topic? its just how some people prefer to process information: by writing. if, by chance, someone else connects with that writing, then we can infer that someone relates to the information based on experience. but experience is the necessary catalyst. the writing is certainly secondary to experience, but they can compliment each other quite well. people gravitate to things when they are ready. the reading comes when there first is realized a need for it. Dont get water. seek thirst.
I hear no real openness to any idea beyond what you now hold. You are not transmitting the teaching that you say you want to. Time to re evaluate why.
That's okay! I'm not asking for anyone to be open to what I say here. It has been difficult to reply to you because you want to teach me based upon some words on a screen, and given I know my whole life intimately, and you know absolutely none of it, it's difficult for me to accept teachings from them. You have no idea what I transmit, nor what motivates me, nor can you from this context. As I said, in these forums we must give each other the benefit of the doubt. I've come here for strong, direct discussion to sort out some ideas, not to be personally criticised because no-one here can do that. Yet so many of you have decided that you can say something about me based upon this discussion, but the statements some here have made about me say much more about your own minds than they do mine.
why are there books on any topic? its just how some people prefer to process information: by writing. if, by chance, someone else connects with that writing, then we can infer that someone relates to the information based on experience. but experience is the necessary catalyst. the writing is certainly secondary to experience, but they can compliment each other quite well. people gravitate to things when they are ready. the reading comes when there first is realized a need for it. Dont get water. seek thirst.
Just think that the only way that the only reason you have had the chance to practice the Dharma is because others have reached out to you. The Dharma didn't get from under a tree 2500 years ago into your life here and now by a miracle. Many people have made great efforts to allow you the opportunity to heal your mind and find happiness. They made those efforts because of their compassion. They saw that we suffered and they shared their remedy. You didn't have to go to India, or Tibet, you didn't have to hunt down a Buddha - the Buddha has come to you, and continues to, and will continue to come to you, because compassion doesn't sit on its hands, nor does it withhold information to 'protect' others, nor does it judge who is or isn't appropriate for it.
The people on the business forum may have a hard time separating out the religious aspect of your message. They will be well aware of your interest in Buddhism from some of your other postings there. I have no doubt about your sincerity for this work, but believe there is unmistakable ego invovled. the proof is in the fact that you are looking for validation here, and there also, btw. Why not work quietly, unannounced, below the radar.
Maybe there is ego involved! In fact, of course there is! I'm not enlightened. I probably am looking for some approval. I probably am looking for some acknowledgement. I am a tangled knot the size of multiverses, as we all are, but does that mean that I cannot help people in my current state? Does that mean I must wait until I am enlightened to be of service to others? No, of course not. No teacher can transmit perfect, pure teachings from their mind to their student. There will always be confusion, there will always be misinterpretation, there will always be mistakes made that lead to suffering not peace.
This is okay! Did everyone listen to the Buddha and practice the Dharma? NO! Some people simply didn't have the eyes to see. Some people rejected his teachings. Some people got his teachings wrong. This is NOT a simple path! Even Jesus upset enough people severely enough to get nailed to a cross. I'm not expecting the business people to be enlightened or to even have their lives transformed, but I am hoping that they can be helped at least a little bit, and in their being helped that maybe a seed will be planted that inspires them to dig deeper and explore further.
There is so much potential benefit from my work there. Read through the posts and look out for 'Trebor8'... Do you see what I see? Is it not beautiful? He is right there... that beautiful place where suddenly we see something more. This is not just about teaching, it is about planting a possibility and creating a catalyst. Some might read my posts, not reply, but go and pick up a book. There is sooooo much potential good. It will be beautiful, and I hope some here stay tuned in so that they too can see the power they hold within them to make a difference.
I'm tired of this passive 'they must come to me' nonsense. It is we who must go to them, but we just need to learn how to. As I said before, the Buddha's teachings didn't not come from under a tree into your life by accident or miracle. A lot of people for a long, long time have reached out to you, and brought the teachings to you. Don't forget that!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited October 2013
Actions speak louder than words. As you have yourself witnessed, words can be misunderstood, misconstrued and misinterpreted when simply seen 'black-on-white' on a screen. The WAY you LIVE your life; the way you DEMONSTRATE how you incorporate what you have absorbed, in your every-day actions, movements and interactions, will teach others more about what you give credence to, than any amount of words on a screen. If you want to 'change the world', start with a smaller garden. Tend your own beds and plants; others will admire your efforts much more.
why are there books on any topic? its just how some people prefer to process information: by writing. if, by chance, someone else connects with that writing, then we can infer that someone relates to the information based on experience. but experience is the necessary catalyst. the writing is certainly secondary to experience, but they can compliment each other quite well. people gravitate to things when they are ready. the reading comes when there first is realized a need for it. Dont get water. seek thirst.
Just think that the only way that the only reason you have had the chance to practice the Dharma is because others have reached out to you. The Dharma didn't get from under a tree 2500 years ago into your life here and now by a miracle. Many people have made great efforts to allow you the opportunity to heal your mind and find happiness. They made those efforts because of their compassion. They saw that we suffered and they shared their remedy. You didn't have to go to India, or Tibet, you didn't have to hunt down a Buddha - the Buddha has come to you, and continues to, and will continue to come to you, because compassion doesn't sit on its hands, nor does it withhold information to 'protect' others, nor does it judge who is or isn't appropriate for it.
i agree. but there wasn't any condensed, dumbed down, bullet point prensentation that made me want to study dharma. it was my experience that drew me to it. writing helps to organize experience. if it is dictacting experience, then the writing has become propaganda or dogmatic and it can only cause more road blocks.
and if it has miraculously made it 2500 years to get into my hands, why do you think it needs to be adjusted? seems like its working quite well as it has been for two and a half millenia, right?
I think it [this discussion/situation] can all come down to one, simple quote by Gandhi:
"Be the change you wish to see in the world..."
No religion has had a more pervasive, invasive, extensive mode and history of hard-core proselytizing (and indoctrination) than Christianity. And yet it is not the 'one World Religion' it has always hoped to be. Why is that, you suppose?
@mindatrisk; you believe that waiting for the student to seek out the teacher is "nonsense". Well apparently many here disagree with that. Now, that certainly doesn't mean you must change your mind/views, just because they aren't popular or whatever... But any critically thinking, rational human might at least seriously consider all that is being said, instead of summarily dismissing it all with excuses of being misunderstood, or misread. There is often much to be learned in disagreements between well intended people... and everyone here (yes, you included) seem to be well intended, no?
Actions speak louder than words. As you have yourself witnessed, words can be misunderstood, misconstrued and misinterpreted when simply seen 'black-on-white' on a screen. The WAY you LIVE your life; the way you DEMONSTRATE how you incorporate what you have absorbed, in your every-day actions, movements and interactions, will teach others more about what you give credence to, than any amount of words on a screen. If you want to 'change the world', start with a smaller garden. Tend your own beds and plants; others will admire your efforts much more.
You are 100% right. I find gardening difficult though. Too destructive for my liking.
i agree. but there wasn't any condensed, dumbed down, bullet point prensentation that made me want to study dharma. it was my experience that drew me to it. writing helps to organize experience. if it is dictacting experience, then the writing has become propaganda or dogmatic and it can only cause more road blocks.
and if it has miraculously made it 2500 years to get into my hands, why do you think it needs to be adjusted? seems like its working quite well as it has been for two and a half millenia, right?
It has been adjusted. Do you read Dharma books in Sanskrit? Why else would it be translated into English except to benefit you? Does every Dharma book you read contain all 84,000 teachings? No, most Dharma books we read in the west have been adjusted to the western mind and western experience... even 'dumbed down' if you wish to see it like that. And why are their so many different traditions and branches within Buddhism? Because the Buddha's teachings have been adjusted to meet various requirements. The Buddha himself taught us not to follow him blindly but to question his teachings, experiment with them, and find what works for us. Well, 2500 years after he shared his insights, we live in a very different world with very different needs, very different problems, and very different opportunities to share the Dharma. We have the good fortune to have incredible teachings only a Google search away, and we embrace it fully. Things change. We must change with them. Impermanence. Do not cling on to the ways things were. It won't work. Buddha taught exactly that. And if this forum is a fair reflection of modern Buddhism, then it is in a very limp and uninspired phase.
I think it [this discussion/situation] can all come down to one, simple quote by Gandhi:
"Be the change you wish to see in the world..."
No religion has had a more pervasive, invasive, extensive mode and history of hard-core proselytizing (and indoctrination) than Christianity. And yet it is not the 'one World Religion' it has always hoped to be. Why is that, you suppose?
@mindatrisk; you believe that waiting for the student to seek out the teacher is "nonsense". Well apparently many here disagree with that. Now, that certainly doesn't mean you must change your mind/views, just because they aren't popular or whatever... But any critically thinking, rational human might at least seriously consider all that is being said, instead of summarily dismissing it all with excuses of being misunderstood, or misread. There is often much to be learned in disagreements between well intended people... and everyone here (yes, you included) seem to be well intended, no?
Do you think that I could say all of this and not live as an example? Do I sound that naive? The posts in the Business forum serve numerous purposes. On one level they are an opportunity to share ideas, but there is a much, much more powerful element and that is how I engage with an audience that is hostile. Read back through the posts and observe how I engage with certain people at certain times. You will see clearly that I am being the change, that I am being an example, that I am walking the talk. I am not blind to this. My example is EVERYTHING, and if anything, the content of the posts are simply an opportunity to create a setting to demonstrate my example. This is a given. I cannot talk about how dangerous anger is and then get angry when someone ridicules or attacks me. Those are the moments I am truly there for. Those are the moments that leave an impression. Not the words. So, please, read back, and you will see my example.
Where are the teachers? Did the Buddha stay under the tree and wait for everyone to come here? How did Buddhism reach the western world? It is a nonsense to say 'wait for the student' because the teachers are going to the students! Your meditation classes, your centres, your books, your teachers, are coming to you - not to you personally because that is impossible - but they are coming to your countries, your towns, your bookstores, your community centres, and positioning themselves for you to see. So it is nonsense, because it's not what is happening. Your teachers are coming to you! Over and over and over, in every beautifully creative and inspired way that they can think of, because they LOVE YOU! If they weren't coming to you then you would never know they existed. If the Buddha had stayed under his tree then there would be no Buddhism.
I have only dismissed what should have been dismissed.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with offering Dhamma (as in teachings and practices) or the insights one may have gained on the path. The Buddha himself sent out monks to teach others:
Bhikkhus, I am freed from all snares, both celestial and human. You too, bhikkhus, are freed from all snares, both celestial and human. Wander forth, O bhikkhus, for the welfare of the multitude, for the happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans. Let not two go the same way. Teach, O bhikkhus, the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing. Reveal the perfectly complete and purified holy life. There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma. I too, bhikkhus, will go to Senanigama in Uruvela in order to teach the Dhamma. (SN 4.5)
The fruitfulness of one's efforts will depend on their individual level of insight and skill, of course, and I don't think one should be overly pushy in their attempts; but I don't think the Dhamma is something to be hoarded away, either.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with offering Dhamma (as in teachings and practices) or the insights one may have gained on the path. The Buddha himself sent out monks to teach others:
Bhikkhus, I am freed from all snares, both celestial and human. You too, bhikkhus, are freed from all snares, both celestial and human. Wander forth, O bhikkhus, for the welfare of the multitude, for the happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans. Let not two go the same way. Teach, O bhikkhus, the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing. Reveal the perfectly complete and purified holy life. There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma. I too, bhikkhus, will go to Senanigama in Uruvela in order to teach the Dhamma. (SN 4.5)
The fruitfulness of one's efforts will depend on their individual level of insight and skill, of course, and I don't think one should be overly pushy in their attempts; but I don't think the Dhamma is something to be hoarded away, either.
Wonderful post, thank you. There is nothing more beautiful and meaningful than using our lives to take the Dharma to others. That this is in question here is, to me, absurd, and i'm totally bemused at how such an attitude has prevailed and become predominant. The question that is important is not whether we should be spreading the Dharma, but how we should be spreading the Dharma. This is the question i've posed here, this is what I seek support with, and this is what I encourage everyone here to begin to ask. No-one here has anything better to do with their lives. There is no other game in town. If you have the Dharma in your life then share it. Share it with your example first and foremost, but also seek moments to share an idea, seek environments to begin a discussion, seek people open to be taught. Above all, position yourself to shine, and do not limit yourself. Everyone here has the power to benefit many, many people in many incredible ways through many inspired means. Embrace that! You are all angels, Buddhas and Bodhisattva's. You have no idea how powerful you all are. Get your wings out. Show the world the truth of love.
There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma.
THIS is the key point. There are many, many human beings in this world who are ready for the Dharma. It is true, also, that there will be many who aren't. But if we aren't willing to share the Dharma and put it in the line of vision for others to see then they may never find it. We have incredible technology now that we can utilise to reach so many people... so many new people. When have we ever in human history had the chance to reach out to a group as traditionally opposed as business people are, en masse, and share message after message after message? This is fantasy stuff! This is the wet dreams of Buddha's! How can it not be seen how incredible it is that we can take the Dharma to so many people, in such an efficient manner, and have real results? You are crazy here to not see the blessings we are being immersed in. There has never been a better time in history to have the Dharma proliferated. Open your eyes!
We have exactly these kinds of discussions in A.A..
In A.A. our literature says "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion" (Tradition 11); which some folk interpret as not 'evangelising'. But Step 12 says, "We try to carry this message to other alcoholics.." which kinda sounds like it is 'evangelising', as in we 'carry', we don't wait to be asked for it.
I think the 'middle way' is the right way. We shouldn't force anything down people's throats; we shouldn't 'evangelise' Buddhism. But neither should we remain so silent about it that no-one knows about it.
Many Buddhist centres seem to advertise drop in mediation centres and courses in Buddhism; a quick google shows this. These are the seeds; the bait if you like.
My A.A. sponsor says it's my job to plant seeds, not rip up young shoots.
And there's not much attractive about a foaming-at-the-mouth AAer or Buddhist (insert any other religion/spiritual philosophy).
We have exactly these kinds of discussions in A.A..
In A.A. our literature says "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion" (Tradition 11); which some folk interpret as not 'evangelising'. But Step 12 says, "We try to carry this message to other alcoholics.." which kinda sounds like it is 'evangelising', as in we 'carry', we don't wait to be asked for it.
I think the 'middle way' is the right way. We shouldn't force anything down people's throats; we shouldn't 'evangelise' Buddhism. But neither should we remain so silent about it that no-one knows about it.
Many Buddhist centres seem to advertise drop in mediation centres and courses in Buddhism; a quick google shows this. These are the seeds; the bait if you like.
My A.A. sponsor says it's my job to plant seeds, not rip up young shoots.
And there's not much attractive about a foaming-at-the-mouth AAer or Buddhist (insert any other religion/spiritual philosophy).
Exactly, how can anyone be helped if they don't know that help is available? Our role as Dharma practitioners is to give people the option, that is all. Our example is very powerful for those we spend significant time with, but how about those we don't meet? I don't know if people are misunderstanding certain things or whether they are using certain ideas to justify laziness, but this whole 'let the student come to the teacher' thing is not based in reality, and it's leading to idleness, which means that everyday we are losing precious opportunities to share the Dharma with individuals who may actually be very receptive and very ready, but who aren't being given the chance.
Just out of interest, I know the Buddha story; he started with four disciples who were his spiritual mates in the forest. But how did he increase the size of his sangha?
Since I started meditating and being interested in Buddhism (and Christianity, Islam, etc.), people sometimes say things to me like, "why don't you ever get angry?" and "why are you being so nice to me?" and "he's a jerk, why would you do that for him?"
When asked, sometimes, if it feels right, I'll explain why I live the way that I do. I never, never try to convert anyone; if they find the topic interesting, they are free to research it themselves.
Do you, @mindatrisk, feel that you are doing the same thing, but virtually? I haven't had a chance to look at your links, and I wouldn't want to judge your intentions, anyway.
Since I started meditating and being interested in Buddhism (and Christianity, Islam, etc.), people sometimes say things to me like, "why don't you ever get angry?" and "why are you being so nice to me?" and "he's a jerk, why would you do that for him?"
When asked, sometimes, if it feels right, I'll explain why I live the way that I do. I never, never try to convert anyone; if they find the topic interesting, they are free to research it themselves.
...
Yes, exactly, and that it was Buddhist monks in Thailand recommended to me. I have never on my own volition talked about Buddhism, but never made it a secret, either. I will discuss with anyone who asks, and I have agreed to take people to the local temple...even if it is just out of well-intentioned curiosity.
Comments
I'm not criticising anyone for being rude. My genuine feeling is - and I include your above response - that there can be a lack of patience, a quickness to judge, an inclination to distort or misrepresent what has been said, none of which is helpful. I don't think - and this is only my personal view - that what you've written above and the tone of what you've written above is a positive reflection of Buddhism. I'm not saying i'm right, and, of course, many here may say the same about me, such is personal perspective, but that is just what my experience here has been. I don't think it is too unreasonable. If you read through some of the posts here do you think they reflect the vast and rich qualities of Buddhism? I don't, but that is just me, and, to be clear, it is just a few posts in one thread. I'm sure that if I spent more time here my view would change, but in answering the point previously made, right now I wouldn't direct anyone here as an introduction to Buddhism.
I'm not sure in what way I am not upfront about what i'm teaching them. In that thread I was teaching them about anger in a very explicit and open manner... how am I deceiving them? And I certainly don't think that I was coddling anyone in that discussion. Alas, I am confused. On one hand I was being berated for pushing Buddhism (which I wasn't) and now you are upset because I won't direct them to a Buddhist forum...?
^^ I'm not upset, at all.
Why do so many people think a disagreement means someone is "upset"?
But I do believe you're not being honest - with yourself - or anyone else. This seems to be some sort of covert ego trip for you....
And I'll say no more.
As for my motives... Who knows? It is between me and my heart. If I am on some covert ego trip then I guess the karma will sort me out sooner or later. I understand some concerns some people have, and I understand the questions that arise, but I truly believe your conclusion is faulty... alas, my life will prove me right or wrong. We shall see! I've really appreciated your thoughts here though. I'm always open to questions and criticism, but I do think that on a forum like this people need to be given the benefit of the doubt. It is very difficult to judge someone based upon some words on a screen. If you met me in person, looked in my eyes, observed my behaviour, and then concluded that I was dishonest, egotistical etc. then maybe that is a bit fairer, but coming to those conclusions on here like this kind of just reinforces the comments i've just made about these forums.
Like fame, it is one of the most seductive delusions to try to address.
I do not know if this is your particular koan or not, but your postings here certainly sound like it.
Leaving the possibilities of it for "karma" to sort out doesn't take into consideration all the potential suffering that this particular tract may be bringing to others, right now.
The compassionate approach would be to examine it now as a serious possible cause of suffering rather than relying on some future "wait & see" result.
maybe your work doesnt fulfill you enough, so you need to create a bigger and beter use for the dharma you have learned? my suggestion: focus on your work, an yourself. in that way you are present within what you can acually control and experience and will therefore be more effective at your daily tasks. bring it back home. the world isnt goig anywhere. there is no pot of dharma gold at the end of the rainbow. there's usually just more rain.
The best way to share the Dharma is through one's own interactions with others, not sharing ideas. Doctrines, no matter in what terms they are couched, are just ideas when lifted out of the context of daily practice and experience.
The New Testament says to not put your lamp under a bowl, but let it shine for all to see. But the lamp Jesus was speaking of was not disseminating [Christian] doctrine, but sharing love and compassion. I think the same is true of the Dharma.
I believe it was the Buddha's practice that when someone had a question for him, he would not answer straightaway, but would put him off and wait for a second occasion for the questioner to ask again. He would put him off again-- and it was only after the third time he asked the Buddha that the Buddha responded with an answer-- satisfied that the questioner was truly interested.
The surest way I have discovered to touch the seed of awakening in another person is through acts of compassion, not through more ideas. Don't we have enough of those floating around?
I won't offer unsolicited advice to someone who has expressed no interest in such advice. You may do as you please, certainly-- but in my experience (with myself and with others), people don't like to be given unsolicited advice on a forum or thread unrelated to Buddhism. It tends to be counter-productive. Perhaps your experience is different. Such is life.
I was the first to post, pretty much positively, to your original post. Your argumentativeness about the topic and unwillingness to seriously consider opposing views now leads me to retract my initial support.
We only need to look back at all the times that we thought we were right, that look moronic to us now.
We learn the words/ imitate the walk/ find focus/apply multiple layers of spiritual make up and are ready to do just about anything rather than take one more next step towards really letting go of any more identity.
The best hint that one is presently living a future joke in the making, is an inability to sincerely laugh at ourselves now!
I encountered Christian missionaries many years ago in Africa. In their own eyes they were selfless and pious, buying their ticket into heaven by slumming in often inhospitable conditions. All I could see was their self-righteousness and vanity.
I'm not suggesting you are the same, but whenever we think we know best, and we need to tell the rest of humanity the "right" way, you can be sure there is a bit of superiority creeping in, whatever we might tell ourselves.
You know, the Buddha travelled town to town sharing his teachings in public parks. He didn't wait for anyone to come to him, he shared his teachings openly and gave everyone the option to hear the teachings and to take them or leave them. All I am suggesting - and all I am doing - is suggesting that we put the teachings out there and give people the choice. In doing so we might find that there is another 10% of humanity absolutely open to practicing the Dharma in their lives, but who previously had simply not been aware of its existence.
It baffles me that anyone sees any problem in this at all. Compassion drives us to reach out to people, and wisdom guides us to reach out appropriately. If someone were to take issue with how I am reaching out, then fine. But the fact that people are against me reaching out is ludicrous to me. If the Dharma was not to be shared then why didn't the Buddha just stay under his tree? Why walk town to town? Why share 84,000 teachings? Why were the teachings written down to be preserved?
The people on the business forum may have a hard time separating out the religious aspect of your message. They will be well aware of your interest in Buddhism from some of your other postings there.
I have no doubt about your sincerity for this work, but believe there is unmistakable ego invovled. the proof is in the fact that you are looking for validation here, and there also, btw.
Why not work quietly, unannounced, below the radar.
I hear no real openness to any idea beyond what you now hold.
You are not transmitting the teaching that you say you want to.
Time to re evaluate why.
This is okay! Did everyone listen to the Buddha and practice the Dharma? NO! Some people simply didn't have the eyes to see. Some people rejected his teachings. Some people got his teachings wrong. This is NOT a simple path! Even Jesus upset enough people severely enough to get nailed to a cross. I'm not expecting the business people to be enlightened or to even have their lives transformed, but I am hoping that they can be helped at least a little bit, and in their being helped that maybe a seed will be planted that inspires them to dig deeper and explore further.
There is so much potential benefit from my work there. Read through the posts and look out for 'Trebor8'... Do you see what I see? Is it not beautiful? He is right there... that beautiful place where suddenly we see something more. This is not just about teaching, it is about planting a possibility and creating a catalyst. Some might read my posts, not reply, but go and pick up a book. There is sooooo much potential good. It will be beautiful, and I hope some here stay tuned in so that they too can see the power they hold within them to make a difference.
I'm tired of this passive 'they must come to me' nonsense. It is we who must go to them, but we just need to learn how to. As I said before, the Buddha's teachings didn't not come from under a tree into your life by accident or miracle. A lot of people for a long, long time have reached out to you, and brought the teachings to you. Don't forget that!
As you have yourself witnessed, words can be misunderstood, misconstrued and misinterpreted when simply seen 'black-on-white' on a screen.
The WAY you LIVE your life; the way you DEMONSTRATE how you incorporate what you have absorbed, in your every-day actions, movements and interactions, will teach others more about what you give credence to, than any amount of words on a screen.
If you want to 'change the world', start with a smaller garden.
Tend your own beds and plants; others will admire your efforts much more.
and if it has miraculously made it 2500 years to get into my hands, why do you think it needs to be adjusted? seems like its working quite well as it has been for two and a half millenia, right?
"Be the change you wish to see in the world..."
No religion has had a more pervasive, invasive, extensive mode and history of hard-core proselytizing (and indoctrination) than Christianity. And yet it is not the 'one World Religion' it has always hoped to be. Why is that, you suppose?
@mindatrisk; you believe that waiting for the student to seek out the teacher is "nonsense".
Well apparently many here disagree with that.
Now, that certainly doesn't mean you must change your mind/views, just because they aren't popular or whatever...
But any critically thinking, rational human might at least seriously consider all that is being said, instead of summarily dismissing it all with excuses of being misunderstood, or misread. There is often much to be learned in disagreements between well intended people... and everyone here (yes, you included) seem to be well intended, no?
Where are the teachers? Did the Buddha stay under the tree and wait for everyone to come here? How did Buddhism reach the western world? It is a nonsense to say 'wait for the student' because the teachers are going to the students! Your meditation classes, your centres, your books, your teachers, are coming to you - not to you personally because that is impossible - but they are coming to your countries, your towns, your bookstores, your community centres, and positioning themselves for you to see. So it is nonsense, because it's not what is happening. Your teachers are coming to you! Over and over and over, in every beautifully creative and inspired way that they can think of, because they LOVE YOU! If they weren't coming to you then you would never know they existed. If the Buddha had stayed under his tree then there would be no Buddhism.
I have only dismissed what should have been dismissed.
Wonderful post, thank you. There is nothing more beautiful and meaningful than using our lives to take the Dharma to others. That this is in question here is, to me, absurd, and i'm totally bemused at how such an attitude has prevailed and become predominant. The question that is important is not whether we should be spreading the Dharma, but how we should be spreading the Dharma. This is the question i've posed here, this is what I seek support with, and this is what I encourage everyone here to begin to ask. No-one here has anything better to do with their lives. There is no other game in town. If you have the Dharma in your life then share it. Share it with your example first and foremost, but also seek moments to share an idea, seek environments to begin a discussion, seek people open to be taught. Above all, position yourself to shine, and do not limit yourself. Everyone here has the power to benefit many, many people in many incredible ways through many inspired means. Embrace that! You are all angels, Buddhas and Bodhisattva's. You have no idea how powerful you all are. Get your wings out. Show the world the truth of love.
THIS is the key point. There are many, many human beings in this world who are ready for the Dharma. It is true, also, that there will be many who aren't. But if we aren't willing to share the Dharma and put it in the line of vision for others to see then they may never find it. We have incredible technology now that we can utilise to reach so many people... so many new people. When have we ever in human history had the chance to reach out to a group as traditionally opposed as business people are, en masse, and share message after message after message? This is fantasy stuff! This is the wet dreams of Buddha's! How can it not be seen how incredible it is that we can take the Dharma to so many people, in such an efficient manner, and have real results? You are crazy here to not see the blessings we are being immersed in. There has never been a better time in history to have the Dharma proliferated. Open your eyes!
In A.A. our literature says "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion" (Tradition 11); which some folk interpret as not 'evangelising'. But Step 12 says, "We try to carry this message to other alcoholics.." which kinda sounds like it is 'evangelising', as in we 'carry', we don't wait to be asked for it.
I think the 'middle way' is the right way. We shouldn't force anything down people's throats; we shouldn't 'evangelise' Buddhism. But neither should we remain so silent about it that no-one knows about it.
Many Buddhist centres seem to advertise drop in mediation centres and courses in Buddhism; a quick google shows this. These are the seeds; the bait if you like.
My A.A. sponsor says it's my job to plant seeds, not rip up young shoots.
And there's not much attractive about a foaming-at-the-mouth AAer or Buddhist (insert any other religion/spiritual philosophy).
When asked, sometimes, if it feels right, I'll explain why I live the way that I do. I never, never try to convert anyone; if they find the topic interesting, they are free to research it themselves.
Do you, @mindatrisk, feel that you are doing the same thing, but virtually? I haven't had a chance to look at your links, and I wouldn't want to judge your intentions, anyway.