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"The Deathless" (Pali: Amata) in Buddhism
EvenThird
NYC Veteran
Hi all,
How do you understand it? Do you have any relevant experiences to share?
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OR
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From the same talk, he presented the idea that the heedfulness/attention/mindfulness is something we all have, and in the nature of attention is the deathless. It is not something external. Our buddha nature is deathlessness.
How do you understand it? Do you have any relevant experiences to share?
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At Savatthi. "Monks, remain with your minds well-established in the four establishings of mindfulness. Don't let the deathless be lost to you.SN 47
"In which four? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world.
"Monks, remain with your minds well-established in these four establishings of mindfulness. Don't let the deathless be lost to you."
"...But what is the noble liberation?"MN 106
"There is the case, Ananda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: that is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.'"
"Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already."DHP II (21-32)
OR
"Attention is the path to the deathless. Inattention is the path to death. Those who are attentive never die, those who are inattentive are as if already dead."(from Gil Fronsdal's dharma talk on the subject, don't know who's translation it is)
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From the same talk, he presented the idea that the heedfulness/attention/mindfulness is something we all have, and in the nature of attention is the deathless. It is not something external. Our buddha nature is deathlessness.
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Comments
When people talk about 'finding themselves', they are in for a touch of dharma surprise. Self is dependent on arising factors - 'dependent origination'. The unborn does not have an arising or dependence.
In one sense it is the cessation of the struggle for emancipation, liberation, the deathless, that allows its 'nature' or 'eternal presence' to become apparent.
The pool is muddy, with us threshing about for 'peace of mind'. Let it settle and the pool is clear. That is why we practice stillness of being aka meditation.
all I know is to practice, I'll get there one of these aeons.
I'm in the same boat. Any understanding I might currently have seems to be purely conceptual. Although I admit to having learned a thing or two thanks to people's responses. Even so, practice is the only way I see for my own understanding.
'Open are the doors to the
Deathless
to those with ears.
Let them show their conviction.
Perceiving trouble, O Brahma,
I did not tell people
the refined,
sublime Dhamma.'
Ariyapariyesana Sutta MN26
I wrote elsewhere:
Amata is not immortality, which implies the presence of an eternal Self or Soul. There is no such Self or Soul to be immortal be it in samsara [experience afflicted by passions, aggression and delusion] or in nirvana [nirvana = the cessation of all afflictions]. Amata means death-free. What is the meaning of death-free in Buddha’s context?
Buddha: "And what, monks, is the death-free (amata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the death-free."
As a moderator of the dhammawheel forum tiltbillings puts it: There is no "deathless." That is a bad translation leading to an objectification/reification of the idea of awakening. With awakening, there is no more rebirth, one is free from death. (31 words.)
Jnana/Geoff says it very well: “Firstly, while the translation of asaṃskṛta as “the unconditioned” is fairly common, it’s a rather poor translation that all too easily leads to reification. The term asaṃskṛta refers to a negation of conditioned factors, and the meaning is better conveyed by “not-conditioned.” Secondly, for Sautrāntika commentators, and many mahāyānika commentators as well, an analytical cessation (pratisaṃkhyānirodha) is a non-implicative negation (prasajyapratiṣedha), i.e. a negation that doesn’t imply the presence of some other entity, and therefore nirvāṇa simply refers to a cessation that terminates the defilements and fetters that are abandoned by the correct practice of the noble path. It doesn’t refer to an entity or state that is substantially existent (dravyasat).”
(The same applies to “Deathless” – there is no “Deathless” but “death-free” that is the absence of afflictions that lead to samsaric rebirth and death)
Geoff also wrote, “One has to be careful with such descriptions which may seem to be pointing to some sort of truly existent "unconditioned ground." Nibbāna is the extinguishment of the mental outflows (āsavā). The liberated mind is measureless (appamāṇa). This is not a "state of oneness with all of existence." It's an absence of identification (anattatā). It's non-indicative (anidassana), unestablished (appatiṭṭha), and not-dependent (anissita). None of these adjectives entail any sort of metaphysical "ground of being" or "unconditioned absolute." They are all negations. An arahant has simply "gone out."”
And as Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm Smith said, “When you have eradicated all afflictions which cause rebirth, this is all the deathlessness you need. No more birth, BAM! no more death.”
And it is not just Loppon Namdrol who is saying this, it is very obvious in the Suttas that when the Buddha talked about not-born he is not referring to a metaphysical deathless Self but rather, is referring to the absence of afflictions (primarily the conceit that ‘I Am’), and that in the absence of karmic conditions for rebirth, there is no birth and therefore no ageing, sickness and death.
31. “Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and is not agitated. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he be agitated? ~ Dhātuvibhanga Sutta
Lastly, before Mr. Richard makes a mess of misinterpreting Nirvana, I will like to quote from the scriptures:
SN 43 Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta (1-44 combined & abridged):
And what, monks, is the not-fabricated (asaṅkhata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-fabricated.
And what, monks, is the not-inclined (anata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the not-inclined.
And what, monks, is the outflowless (anāsava)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the outflowless.
And what, monks, is the truth (sacca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the truth.
And what, monks, is the farther shore (pāra)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the farther shore.
And what, monks, is the subtle (nipuṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the subtle.
And what, monks, is the very hard to see (sududdasa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the very hard to see.
And what, monks, is the unaging (ajajjara)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unaging.
And what, monks, is the stable (dhuva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the stable.
And what, monks, is the undisintegrating (apalokita)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the undisintegrating.
And what, monks, is the non-indicative (anidassana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the non-indicative.
And what, monks, is the unproliferated (nippapañca)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unproliferated.
And what, monks, is the peaceful (santa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the peaceful.
And what, monks, is the death-free (amata)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the death-free.
And what, monks, is the sublime (paṇīta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the sublime.
And what, monks, is the auspicious (siva)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the auspicious.
And what, monks, is the secure (khema)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the secure.
And what, monks, is the elimination of craving (taṇhākkhaya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the elimination of craving.
And what, monks, is the wonderful (acchariya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the wonderful.
And what, monks, is the amazing (abbhuta)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the amazing.
And what, monks, is the calamity-free (anītika)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the calamity-free.
And what, monks, is the dhamma free of calamity (anītikadhamma)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the dhamma free of calamity.
And what, monks, is extinguishment (nibbāna)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called extinguishment.
And what, monks, is the unafflicted (abyāpajjha)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unafflicted.
And what, monks, is dispassion (virāga)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called dispassion.
And what, monks, is purity (suddhi)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called purity.
And what, monks, is freedom (mutti)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called freedom.
And what, monks, is the unadhesive (anālaya)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the unadhesive.
And what, monks, is the island (dīpa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the island.
And what, monks, is the cave (leṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the cave.
And what, monks, is the shelter (tāṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the shelter.
And what, monks, is the refuge (saraṇa)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the refuge.
And what, monks, is the destination (parāyana)? The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this is called the destination.
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As Geoff said:
"Nibbāna is a negation. It means extinguishment.
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Firstly, nibbāna isn't a "state." Secondly, nibbāna is the cessation of passion, aggression, and delusion. For a learner it is the cessation of the fetters extinguished on each path. The waking states where "suddenly all sensations and six senses stop functioning" are (1) mundane perceptionless samādhis, and (2) cessation of apperception and feeling. Neither of these are supramundane and neither of these are synonymous with experiencing nibbāna."
give
away?
. . . to be
continued?
. . . and now back to the death of words and the wordless . . . :wave:
In this, it listed three stages: 1) body-mind benefits, 2) from small I to Large I, 3) Large I to No I
This means it goes beyond 'true self' of stage 2.
Of course not many teachers, even in Buddhism (and it is non-existent outside Buddhism), is able to reach realization of Anatta.
Any form of metaphysical essence is reification. All notions of self/Self causes bondage/samsara.
Even if they say things like "true self is void" it often implies a Self that is attributeless and formless, which is no different from Hinduism's Nirguna Brahman. It is still a substantial entity.