Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Here's one to test your Buddhist devotion
Xrayman
Veteran
Dear all,
You may have heard that Saddam Hussein will hang.
Question: How do you feel about this?:eek2:
regards,
xray
You may have heard that Saddam Hussein will hang.
Question: How do you feel about this?:eek2:
regards,
xray
0
Comments
Let him go, I guess, and perhaps more bloodshed may be saved among the people of Iraq. May Saddam find his peace in the world in this life soon and the next.
On a Buddhist level, I am completely, unequivocally against it.
nobody should be able to wield the power of who lives or dies.. its bemusing that ppl are given that power..
A thought or ideal doesn't breath, but a human does.. the worth of 1 man is kinda unlimited in comparison of our simple thoughts and morals.
I admit he would cause trouble if let out, but in confinement theres really nothing he can do, so really whats the point of killing him off?
"I don't support the death penalty because I believe people can change."
Now, I think just about anyone who commits mass murder deserves what they get, but that does not make the death penalty just or worthwhile. Then again, is the death penalty worse than the torture he would likely face if sent to an Iraqi prison? Lot's of food for thought here, but I think that he should be given a fair trial, no matter what.
_/\_
metta
1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
That explains everything to me that I need to know.
yep. What will they reap who sow death penalties?
The good thing of kamma is, it does not support fatalism. Kamma is formed by us, it is voltition. Accepting the 5 percepts and walking the eightfold path does good.
'Refrain' from taking life. Don't mean to nitpick...but does that really mean don't ever kill?
Certainly, wanting anyone to die is negative kamma. A mind of goodwill must be developed in all situations towards all beings. The only time an execution is even possibly acceptible in buddhism, is when not doing so would definitely cause more people to die. There is a story about this in the Jatakas, I believe. However, it is incredibly rare that killing is the only way to keep an individual from doing greater harm. I really don't see that being the case with Mr. Hussein's.
_/\_
metta
Neither am I. But there's nothing to stop you & I from trying to be consummate in virtue.
_/\_
metta
Exactly. You reap what you sow. Are we to be so presumptuous as to decide what karmic consequences someone deserves? It's karma, yes, so I think that karma can carry out its own functions without any "help" from us.
Excellent point! I loved that quote when first I read it, but I'd forgotten it up until now. Thanks for the reminder!
I can see where you are coming from, Harlan. I do think, however, that to try Hussein "by his own rules" would be a validation of exactly the rules that the invasion was supposed to change.
This is not about being a monk/nun, it is about how we are to understand and apply the teachings of the Noble Eighfold Path and the Precepts. These are not the sole prerogative of the Sangha but are the way for all humans to escape from samsara.
What good would it do, even if it were possible, were you to take all the karma on yourself? You would only condemn all those around you as well to the outcome.
If, after study of the sutras, reflection and meditation, you are convinced that the death penalty is consistent with the Dharma, and - I presume - would be prepared to weigh the victim, calculate the drop and then pull the lever yourself, nobody, however well-intentioned, has the right to tell you "No".
And you will never convince me that the death penalty is anything other than barbaric.
Me neither.
Can anyone tell me...what is the right action?
I just have one comment on the situation-He was tried by his "own" people (who he terrorised, tortured, raped, mutilated etc.) and THEY (not me or us,) decided (perhaps karmically for him), that he is to receive the death penalty.
I am against it (i.e. doing it myself etc.), but I am not responsible if a nation who had their families ruined by him and his associates, makes their decision. I believe that (seeing we all love to quote,) that someone said "live by the sword-you die by the sword".
In other words, it's their decision.
Cheers!
Xrayman
Personally, I can understand that many who suffered under him want him dead. I further believe that a reaction to a crime (that is any form of revenge) is less harmful than the crime itself, however, i can`t say if this is supported by any suttas concerning kamma.
finally, I`d be glad that one of you reminds me of my standards, in case I some day become a victim of such a crime (which I hopefully don`t), because I might be full of hate and delusion then. That said, I feel that the non-affected can judge clearer than the victim, which presumaly is the reason why the victim always is the one who sues and not the one who judges
Most certainly! I hope I didn't come across as condemning or blaming those who made this decision -- I understand that they themselves have suffered and are still suffering, and I look at them with the same compassion with which I look at Hussein (who is himself suffering, don't you doubt). But I believe -- and I could be wrong -- that they (those who wish him dead, among his own people and among others) seek his death not because it is the right thing to do or because it is carrying out justice but because they are suffering from anger and hatred, from narrowness, because they have not yet learned to see clearly with the eyes of compassion (not that I'm so much less blind than anyone else -- far from it!). To be sure, it is so much easier to say this standing as I am far removed from these distant events. To have suffered at Hussein's hands and forgive him would demand a considerable level of...compassion? Understanding? I'm not sure, but something noble, at any rate. Indeed, even to forgive him having never felt the effects of his actions would require great effort. But we must try, I think. For the sake of all who share this world, we must try.
Thank you for bringing up this criticism, though. It's given me a lot to think about and has revealed yet another one of my blind spots.
One more thing, I believe his death will prevent many others.
The arguments for "victims' justice" worry me deeply. The reason that we have codes of laws, ever since Hammurabi, is to separate justice from revenge. This is why judges are expected to resuse themselves in cases where they are personally involved. That is the sort of judge that I would want were I in the dock.
Why does the taking of other's lives seem to be the ultimate evil/sin/bad karma? Do I think that we as humans have the right to terminate another's existence? no, certainly not 'the right'. However, have we ever thought about the opposite being true? Do we have the right to bring someone else into this world and raise them the way we see fit? I certainly won't say no. That may sound like an unreasonable question, but it just came across my mind. In the one case a mother is using her body as a sort of 'portal' for her child to come through (please excuse the crude terms) and in the other case someone uses whatever means to send that person to the next life or to terminate their existence on this earth.
I believe, however unfortunate, it may be necessary at times to take one's life if it seems there are no other options. Take a hostage situation for example: Let's say all the negiotiations have been exhausted and the perpetrator is about to kill several people and it ends up being, at that second, that the only way to stop him and save those people is to have a sniper 'take him out'. What then? Saving several 'innocent' people's lives seems like a better option than delaying the death of one 'guilty' person. We will all die eventually. I may die in a few minutes, literally. That obviously doesn't mean I want someone else to make the decision wether or not I live or die. Yet, I have not ever been a mass murder, rapist, or any such person participating in such atrocious acts.
Recently I read a Batman graphic novel entitled, "The Ultimate Evil" which was referring to sex trafficking/tourism. I think I would have to agree with the purpose of the novel. I can't see anything being worse than physically, emotionally, sexually, spiritually abusing a child and then just 'throwing them out'. Since I have experienced only a taste of abuse I can't imagine what these kids are going through. It is a horrific thought. Unfortunately even the organizations that try to expose those who do the child sex touring don't usually suceed in helping out any of the children. So, the children wait and suffer and die. At the end of the graphic novel were some facts about sex tourism and what has been done to try and stop it. I don't even want to repeat a quote that was included in the back of the graphic novel that was taken from one of those sex tourist pamphelets. It was incredibly nauseating to read. The point of me bringing this up is to say... what about those kids? How can we put a some-what immediate stop to all of those horrible, awful things without a few deaths of those incharge? Any ideas? I really would like to know.
And concerning those poor children, I cannot express my disgust enough with the situation -- along with a long list of other grievances I have with this "modern world," as it were (see my Invisible Children thread, for example). However, I don't believe that this has -- or should have -- much to do with the taking of a life. At least not yet. I am by no means knowledgeable -- or even intelligent enough -- to come up with a solution to these and other problems, but I remain firm in my faith that there has to be a better way to put an end to atrocities such as these without spilling any blood. It would call for greater...creativity, I suppose, but we are Homo sapiens, aren't we? We are reasoning beings, right? We've devised all manner of improvements or supposed improvements to life, so why can't we exert a bit of effort to find a way out of this dilemma? Is it that it's too hard? Is it that we can't, or that we don't care enough to try?
I believe in a better way, and I believe in our human race, disappointments to my hopes all aside.
We have tended to be in a minority, those of us who believe that there is a better way to live, with ourselves, with each other and in community. The old definition of madness is doing the same thing over and again but expecting different results. By that definition, we are living in a mad time. Old formulae are still being tried: we try to bring peace by waging war and to say that killing is wroing by executing people. Even the truncated history syllabus of the early 21st century schools serves to show that these methods just do not work. Much as I loathe much of Adam Smith, he is right to speak for "enlightened self-interest". If we really want to install world-wide and lasting peace, surely we should look at what we have done in the past and do something different.
I think I would have to agree with you, Simon, and rambling on my way. However, like I said earlier, how do we fix the situation? (Like the child abuse) It bothers me to the very core of my being and yet I have no answer.
I have no definite answer. I have some ideas about what goes wrong. The notion of "nation state", the vast profits of the armaments companies, the selfish hoarding of food 'surpluses' by cartels of 'nations', the refusal to honour agreements (including the Declaration on the Rights of the Child), the disempowering of the poor and weak, the inequity of global wealth..... but then I am just a hoary old socialist who believes in the equal value of each human being, and the duty of the rich and powerful to devote themselves more than others to the weak.
To me it's more of the effects to have him to live. I am sure that if Osama is to be caught today, it is clear that many will agree that having him to live will only accelerate terrorist efforts throughout the world rather than halt them. I feel that although it's alot more on a smaller scale for Saddam, it might still be the same.
That's my point. It's not the world that needs changing, it's the individual.
Are you implying that if I had a better attitude toward the situation (as far as the Child Sex Tourism is concerned) that things would be ok? I guess I'm a little confused as to what you mean.
Beyond that, attitude is not just about sitting around, making ourselves feel better. Our attitude directly affects the course of our thoughts, speech & actions. So, if we were to develop the proper attitude, we might just get out there and come up with some helpful ways to allay the more harmful aspects of our society.
_/\_
metta
That is one of Eight. Without the other Seven, it is not the Noble Eighfold Path.
I've always looked at the entire Eightfold Path being about effort, rather than action.
I'm afraid I'm not quite sure where either of you are trying to go with this.
All eight parts of the Eightfold Path are equally important. I hope that I didn't give the impression that one is more important than the other.
My personal feeling is that Saddam has created horrible causes in his life, and he will suffer the results of those causes whether or not we help him along or not. There is no need to kill him. Whether he dies or lives, he will be in the hell realms for a long, long time, I think. He already is. Thinking that doesn't make me feel good. Rather it arouses compassion in me both for him and for his victims. It's also important to remember that in Buddhism there are no "victims" - only sentient beings reaping the results of their own karma. That doesn't make what Saddam did to them OK, but it does undercut the judgmentalness in our own minds, eh?
Palzang
If there is no self, no soul, then what is it that would be killed? Just a biological mass? And if karma results from intention, and say the death penalty is forbidden, would the intention to kill still not be there?
The purification of intention is lifelong but the purification of action can precede it with great benefit.