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How important is sitting meditation as a part of Buddhist practice?
Sitting meditation is fundamental but it is practice for living mindfully and should never take it over.
I don't think that's a risk for most of us.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited February 2014
I'm glad because I think that would be a waste and even self indulging. If the ego gets bigger with the length of the session there could be problems and often times are. Too much isolation puts one out of touch.
Just a general comment and not aimed at anybody here. Just saying there is such a thing as too much of anything.
Sitting meditation is fundamental but it is practice for living mindfully and should never take it over.
@ourself I am cautious of claiming sitting meditation as a fundamental (even though I'm zen) because it defames those who are better suited to and have chosen different avenues of Buddhist practice.
I find that what is important to me is to have my sitting practice and my living mindfully, not be limited by whether my butt is in motion or not.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
There was once a Zen master. That morning he said, "So, my monks, what shall we do today?" One said, "Let's meditate!" The second said, "We should study the sutras." But the third, however, rose from his Zafu and Zabuton and walked out of the door. The master said, "Do you not see? He has transcended both ideas. He got out and DID." So I think you should do both Sutra study and meditation, but you must be the third monk. Practice what you have learned
I think i said this in another thread, but I think we get wound up in time and this lifetime when we talk about practice. I think it is still fair to say sitting practice is fundamental, @how, but with an understanding that perhaps someone who is beyond that did it at another point in time that we cannot reference. Progression on the path is mostly linear as far as our understanding, but that doesn't mean it is limited to our lifetime. So while I think it's fundamental I don't think it in any way defames those who practice otherwise because perhaps they already built that foundation long, long ago and have already gone beyond it.
@Karasti Really? Present scriptural students and the faith /devotional oriented are only advanced enough to walk the path if they practice our form of Buddhism... ..oh and wait. .If they say they don't share the truth , the light and the way of our practice then there is a "get out of dukka free" card offered, courtesy of what they must have already practiced in a past life to justify the argument of what a foundation practice must include..
No, not at all. I didn't mean to apply it in such a broad and sweeping way. I only meant it as a possibility. For all the times I've seen on here where someone has said "You know, I did meditate but I don't really feel a need to, I carry it with me in other ways. I don't find it necessary now." For the time people have said "If you don't do it THIS WAY you are doing it wrong, end of story, there is only one path from A to B" I disagree with that line of thinking. I think *one possibility* is that people have already done the foundational work, whatever it might mean for them, either at a time before we knew them or perhaps in another lifetime. Not as a get out of jail free card, just as another way to look at something when someone else's practice doesn't seem to gel with all we think we know about practicing in general.
In my experience, there are just people, across any traditions, who are just farther along on the same path. They don't have the same needs as people at other places on the same (or even different) paths yet they are judged by others along the same path as skipping steps or not doing things correctly. When really they are just 2 people at different places of understanding and practice.
Nothing to do with practicing the way I do, not at all. Just because someone says their practice is different or other than what I do doesn't mean their practice is wrong in any way. I had in mind a conversation that had happened here many months ago where MaryAnne stated she no longer felt a need to practice sitting meditation and was jumped all over by those who insisted she had to do it, because that was the way to do it. Or when someone else insisted you HAD to start at one spot to arrive at the next. I don't believe either of those is the case and was only offering a thought on one possibility of why someone might seem to surpass something others find so foundational or important. Not the only possibility by any means, not the only path.
Oh, I get it. @karasti It is not surprising that our sense of identity, which so tenaciously expresses itself at every opportunity, does not also use our beloved progressions on the path, to sing it's own praises. That is at least what I think when righteous certainty rears its head here. I think we are all just loosely held hodge podges floating in a fluidic chaos and my myopic view of my own compass does not lend itself well to checking out if anybody elses compass mimics my own. But I have been correctly criticized here for spouting off about where ever I presently am, without giving due respect for whatever the previous steps were that brought me here.
I am cautious of claiming sitting meditation as a fundamental (even though I'm zen) because it defames those who are better suited to and have chosen different avenues of Buddhist practice.
Yes, I take your point. It depends on which traditions we're talking about.
Just saying there is such a thing as too much of anything.
I still think the problem is usually too little.
I think the problem is too much judgement.....
But like I said in another thread, we make judgements all the time. The question is whether our judgements are correct, and what experience those judgements are based on.
Judgement is a problematic word, here. Discernment might still convey what Spiny means, without the moral connotations.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
That seems like a non sequitur. Can you expand on why "no one size fits all" implies reclusiveness (as opposed to, say, sensitivity to the current situation)?
How important is sitting meditation as a part of Buddhist practice?
It is especially important when you do not have a sangha nearby or do not have contact with people, because it would be difficult to practice generosity and moral conduct. In this case meditation would be most helpful in making merit and practicing the Eightfold Path.
So when one is sitting meditation it means they are being moral and generous? That doesn't make much sense. Sitting meditation is a solitary endeavor. Interaction with family, friends, coworkers, neighbors, kids in everyday life is the time to practice generosity, kindness and moral conduct. there is much judgment here on this forum as to what others should do.
No, it means when you meditate it helps to clear your mind of the crap that contributes to your acting inappropriately in the rest of your life. It may not be the only way to do it, but it is certainly one very valid and proven way to do that. When we learn via meditation to quiet our minds and put on egos in the corner, it's much easier to do that in the rest of your life, to be able to more easily see reality for what it is rather than reality tainted by our incorrect perceptions. It is very hard (from what I have seen) for most people in the US to be able to live the lives they actually would rather be living because they have not learned to quiet and tame their minds.
It is just like physical exercise. It tames and trains your body to act in the manner you want it to. Your mind is simply no different.
So when one is sitting meditation it means they are being moral and generous? That doesn't make much sense. Sitting meditation is a solitary endeavor. Interaction with family, friends, coworkers, neighbors, kids in everyday life is the time to practice generosity, kindness and moral conduct. there is much judgment here on this forum as to what others should do.
That link above goes to a complete "study guide" encompassing what seems to be about 30 pages of text regarding merit. Care to summarize and post in a few brief sentences how sitting meditation compares or equates to live action of generosity and moral behavior?
I understand what @karasti is saying. I'm not trying to say sitting meditation has no merit or purpose or does not lead to better mind/behavior off the mat. I just didn't understand @wangchuey's post. But upon rereading it, I think I get what they meant now. however I tend to see a line between "making merit" via meditation, and making a (real) difference via interaction with others. not trying to argue, just explain.
Most browsers come with a search function which you can use to pick out relevant material. It's worth learning to use, very effective. Here is the relevant section on making merit with meditation, and how it compares to the alternatives.
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "All the grounds for making merit leading to spontaneously arising (in heaven) do not equal one-sixteenth of awareness-release through good will. Good will — surpassing them — shines, blazes, & dazzles.
"Just as the radiance of all the stars does not equal one-sixteenth of the radiance of the moon, as the moon — surpassing them — shines, blazes, & dazzles, even so, all the grounds for making merit leading to spontaneously arising in heaven do not equal one-sixteenth of awareness-release through good will. Good will — surpassing them — shines, blazes, & dazzles.
"Just as in the last month of the rains, in autumn, when the sky is clear & cloudless, the sun, on ascending the sky, overpowers the space immersed in darkness, shines, blazes, & dazzles, even so, all the grounds for making merit leading to spontaneously arising in heaven do not equal one-sixteenth of awareness-release through good will. Good will — surpassing them — shines, blazes, & dazzles.
"Just as in the pre-dawn darkness the morning star shines, blazes, & dazzles, even so, all the grounds for making merit leading to spontaneously arising in heaven do not equal one-sixteenth of awareness-release through good will. Good will — surpassing them — shines, blazes, & dazzles."
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
That seems like a non sequitur. Can you expand on why "no one size fits all" implies reclusiveness (as opposed to, say, sensitivity to the current situation)?
Not the brightest question and it shows a lack of comprehension but ok... instead of worrying about what works for others and projecting ones own bias it is far better practice to extend ones own sitting if one is not happy with the results.
Most browsers come with a search function which you can use to pick out relevant material. It's worth learning to use, very effective. Here is the relevant section on making merit with meditation, and how it compares to the alternatives.
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "All the grounds for making merit leading to spontaneously arising (in heaven) do not equal one-sixteenth of awareness-release through good will. Good will — surpassing them — shines, blazes, & dazzles.
"Just as the radiance of all the stars does not equal one-sixteenth of the radiance of the moon, as the moon — surpassing them — shines, blazes, & dazzles, even so, all the grounds for making merit leading to spontaneously arising in heaven do not equal one-sixteenth of awareness-release through good will. Good will — surpassing them — shines, blazes, & dazzles.
"Just as in the last month of the rains, in autumn, when the sky is clear & cloudless, the sun, on ascending the sky, overpowers the space immersed in darkness, shines, blazes, & dazzles, even so, all the grounds for making merit leading to spontaneously arising in heaven do not equal one-sixteenth of awareness-release through good will. Good will — surpassing them — shines, blazes, & dazzles.
"Just as in the pre-dawn darkness the morning star shines, blazes, & dazzles, even so, all the grounds for making merit leading to spontaneously arising in heaven do not equal one-sixteenth of awareness-release through good will. Good will — surpassing them — shines, blazes, & dazzles."
Sorry. those passages don't clarify anything for me. Perhaps that is because I'm viewing 'making merit' as some sort of spiritual score card toward reward - for one's own self. Sort of like saying a Catholic earns points for saying the rosary every day without fail for a set length of time- it's a spiritual point/reward system. I don't adhere to that specific concept. Not claiming right or wrong, no judgement. Just not my way.
Again, I have just reread @wangchuey's post. I think I understand what he is saying now. This is what I think he's saying: In the absence of the opportunity to interact with others/people and practicing the Buddhist concepts of generosity and morality, one may 'make merit' by way of sitting meditation instead. Would this be correct, @wangchuey?
Hope so, because I really didn't intend to get all caught up in a long tedious debate over this. If I do have this interpretation correct, (regarding wangchuey's post), then fine, it stands alone as a response. But, as to its pertinence to the OP's question... that's a bit fuzzier. because after all, how many of us here really have no daily access or interaction with people? I would guess none.
Not the brightest question and it shows a lack of comprehension but ok... instead of worrying about what works for others and projecting ones own bias it is far better practice to extend ones own sitting if one is not happy with the results.
Was that easier to grasp?
That's a completely different argument (actually, just an assertion). It has nothing to do with "no one size fits all."
Perhaps that is because I'm viewing 'making merit' as some sort of spiritual score card toward reward - for one's own self.
From the perspective of obtaining release, making merit is mostly useful because it provides a basis for settling one's own mind down.
"Excellent, Mahanama, excellent! It is fitting for clansmen like you to approach the Tathagata and ask, 'For those of us living by means of various dwelling places [for the mind], by means of which dwelling place should we live?'
...
"Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect your own virtues: '[They are] untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, conducive to concentration.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting virtue, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on virtue. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.
"Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect your own generosity: 'It is a gain, a great gain for me, that — among people overcome with the stain of possessiveness — I live at home, my awareness cleansed of the stain of possessiveness, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting generosity, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on generosity. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Again, I have just reread @wangchuey's post. I think I understand what he is saying now. This is what I think he's saying: In the absence of the opportunity to interact with others/people and practicing the Buddhist concepts of generosity and morality, one may 'make merit' by way of sitting meditation instead. Would this be correct, @wangchuey?
Correct. This is about Right Mindfulness, one of the Noble Eightfold Paths.
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Judgement is a problematic word, here. Discernment might still convey what Spiny means, without the moral connotations.
Could be but there is no one size fits all so discernment is best spent on ones own practice and not others.
I agree about "no one size fits all", but I think the OP question is a valid one....though it was me what asked it, so I suppose I would say that...:p
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Judgement is a problematic word, here. Discernment might still convey what Spiny means, without the moral connotations.
Could be but there is no one size fits all so discernment is best spent on ones own practice and not others.
I agree about "no one size fits all", but I think the OP question is a valid one....though it was me what asked it, so I suppose I would say that...:p
lol... I hear you. To me, any question is valid but sometimes any answer is also valid. The last thing I personally would want is for sitting meditation to become a chore. I've been meditating semi regularly for about 5 years and to be honest, my average time is about 15 minutes. Every now and then I have a particularly engaging (or non-engaging) session and it lasts for much longer but that happens maybe once a month.
Maybe one day I will have a strict routine of sitting meditation as well as the others but maybe I won't. As long as I follow the precepts as best I can with compassion and whatever wisdom I have at the time, I am happy. Just kicking and passing a ball with no net in sight.
I believe an analogous question might be, “How important is reading good literature in order to become a proficient writer?” It is certainly more important in the beginning. Is it possible that someone could write a fantastic literary piece without ever having cracked open a fantastic literary piece? Perhaps. It is unlikely though and if someone was serious about skillfully writing a piece of literature that others will want to read, then they would be well advised to follow in the steps of those who can and have.
Whether or not sitting meditation is imperative is really a moot point for me. It is a better use of time than many things that I find time to do during the day and so, I find time to do it. If I have time to watch a half hour of television for instance, than I have time to sit for a half hour. One, whether it is necessary or not, is a more skillful use of my time.
As someone else alluded to above, if I had to choose between sitting in meditation or being kind, well...being kind wins. However, not only is my life not so well defined, I am not yet at the point where I can be kind continuously without some maintenance that I accomplish in meditation.
@SpinyNorman said:
This question came up in another thread, and I thought it would be interesting to address it directly. How important is sitting meditation as a part of Buddhist practice?
Is it essential? Desirable? Not important? Not necessary?
My initial view is that it's important as a foundation for other aspects of practice like mindfulness.
I would say it is pretty importance and by far more efficient to sit, that is until one is never distracted and then it shouldn't matter. Just don't like a duality form between sitting sessions and "life" to emerge, where one sits an hour and then does 23 hours of anti-meditation.
Comments
Just a general comment and not aimed at anybody here. Just saying there is such a thing as too much of anything.
I am cautious of claiming sitting meditation as a fundamental (even though I'm zen) because it defames those who are better suited to and have chosen different avenues of Buddhist practice.
I find that what is important to me is to have my sitting practice and my living mindfully, not be limited by whether my butt is in motion or not.
Right you are. I should have said "for me".
Sitting meditation took a while to feel right to me. Years, in fact.
Really?
Present scriptural students and the faith /devotional oriented are only advanced enough to walk the path if they practice our form of Buddhism...
..oh and wait.
.If they say they don't share the truth , the light and the way of our practice then there is a "get out of dukka free" card offered, courtesy of what they must have already practiced in a past life to justify the argument of what a foundation practice must include..
Tell me this is not your argument..please.
In my experience, there are just people, across any traditions, who are just farther along on the same path. They don't have the same needs as people at other places on the same (or even different) paths yet they are judged by others along the same path as skipping steps or not doing things correctly. When really they are just 2 people at different places of understanding and practice.
Nothing to do with practicing the way I do, not at all. Just because someone says their practice is different or other than what I do doesn't mean their practice is wrong in any way. I had in mind a conversation that had happened here many months ago where MaryAnne stated she no longer felt a need to practice sitting meditation and was jumped all over by those who insisted she had to do it, because that was the way to do it. Or when someone else insisted you HAD to start at one spot to arrive at the next. I don't believe either of those is the case and was only offering a thought on one possibility of why someone might seem to surpass something others find so foundational or important. Not the only possibility by any means, not the only path.
It is not surprising that our sense of identity, which so tenaciously expresses itself at every opportunity, does not also use our beloved progressions on the path, to sing it's own praises. That is at least what I think when righteous certainty rears its head here.
I think we are all just loosely held hodge podges floating in a fluidic chaos and my myopic view of my own compass does not lend itself well to checking out if anybody elses compass mimics my own.
But
I have been correctly criticized here for spouting off about where ever I presently am, without giving due respect for whatever the previous steps were that brought me here.
It is especially important when you do not have a sangha nearby or do not have contact with people, because it would be difficult to practice generosity and moral conduct. In this case meditation would be most helpful in making merit and practicing the Eightfold Path.
It is just like physical exercise. It tames and trains your body to act in the manner you want it to. Your mind is simply no different.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/merit.html
I understand what @karasti is saying. I'm not trying to say sitting meditation has no merit or purpose or does not lead to better mind/behavior off the mat. I just didn't understand @wangchuey's post.
But upon rereading it, I think I get what they meant now. however I tend to see a line between "making merit" via meditation, and making a (real) difference via interaction with others. not trying to argue, just explain.
Was that easier to grasp?
Sorry. those passages don't clarify anything for me. Perhaps that is because I'm viewing 'making merit' as some sort of spiritual score card toward reward - for one's own self.
Sort of like saying a Catholic earns points for saying the rosary every day without fail for a set length of time- it's a spiritual point/reward system. I don't adhere to that specific concept. Not claiming right or wrong, no judgement. Just not my way.
Again, I have just reread @wangchuey's post. I think I understand what he is saying now.
This is what I think he's saying: In the absence of the opportunity to interact with others/people and practicing the Buddhist concepts of generosity and morality, one may 'make merit' by way of sitting meditation instead. Would this be correct, @wangchuey?
Hope so, because I really didn't intend to get all caught up in a long tedious debate over this. If I do have this interpretation correct, (regarding wangchuey's post), then fine, it stands alone as a response.
But, as to its pertinence to the OP's question... that's a bit fuzzier. because after all, how many of us here really have no daily access or interaction with people? I would guess none.
Each person will have different needs.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/rightmindfulness.pdf
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/
However, I may be being a bit off lately so I apologize for being grumpy about it.
Maybe one day I will have a strict routine of sitting meditation as well as the others but maybe I won't. As long as I follow the precepts as best I can with compassion and whatever wisdom I have at the time, I am happy. Just kicking and passing a ball with no net in sight.
Whether or not sitting meditation is imperative is really a moot point for me. It is a better use of time than many things that I find time to do during the day and so, I find time to do it. If I have time to watch a half hour of television for instance, than I have time to sit for a half hour. One, whether it is necessary or not, is a more skillful use of my time.
As someone else alluded to above, if I had to choose between sitting in meditation or being kind, well...being kind wins. However, not only is my life not so well defined, I am not yet at the point where I can be kind continuously without some maintenance that I accomplish in meditation.
I would say it is pretty importance and by far more efficient to sit, that is until one is never distracted and then it shouldn't matter. Just don't like a duality form between sitting sessions and "life" to emerge, where one sits an hour and then does 23 hours of anti-meditation.