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This forum has its share of hypocrisy, including some -- from time to time -- from me.
Naturally. It's very easy to slip into these self-serving attitudes. I do it too.
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matthewmartinAmateur BodhisattvaSuburbs of Mt MeruVeteran
edited January 2014
Hypocrisy is where you say you observe a rule when you do not in fact do so. I don't say I observe all rules, (In fact I even admit which ones I do and don't follow, isn't that rather different that hypocrisy?) I don't say you should follow all rules. Some of these rules were made long ago for strange contexts-- some rules still work quite well. And the rules about monks not carrying weapons and defending themselves? Those rules were written when it was a crazy dangerous time to follow such a rule.
I do say that you should not eat animals, you should not own guns (except for the police and military). I ain't your boss and you can you shoot the criminal that is going to kill your family and feast on his flesh, too. That's between you and the law, which in most red states, the law will side with you. A good question though, is this Buddhism?
And from reading internet forums, there is nothing more repugnant than anyone someone trying to do good, so obviously I ain't winning any status points here, do you all think I'm so delude to think I am?
re: Jakata tale about killing bandits This story is about a ship captain, some one in a place of authority using sanctioned force. This is different from universally arming everyone, and assuming civilians can execute potential criminals at will, without trial.
This thread will change no ones mind on gun control in the US. Someone in economics said the general opinion on some issues advances with funerals (i.e. no one changes, their mind, people with old opinions die and are replace with people who hold new opinions.) Maybe the widespread ownership of guns will help hasten the process.
I think that a meditation practice is the attempt to allow phenomena to arise, live and fade away without feeding the conditioned impulses trying to control them.
I hope that my meditation practice and time spent here is more of an exploration of this moment's data, that an opinion of what that data should be. Opinions as just identity meals to keep us satiated within our Ego dream, and Buddhism, a 2600 year old diet plan for waking up from that dream.
The only change I'd like to see on anyone's gun control opinions, is a willingness to question whatever it is.
I do find it interesting that the anti-gun groups in America claim that it's reasonable that only military and police should have guns. In other words, the two organizations most likely to use organized violence on its own citizenry in human history are the only ones trustworthy enough to be empowered with weapons. A strong econclision.
Don't get me wrong-- I don't follow all the precepts-- I have kids, drink booze in moderation with food, tell white lies if it smooth out social interactions-- but I try to do that stuff conscious that I'm breaking a Buddhist rule and I have good reasons for it.
I don't particularly like guns, and I don't own any at the present. I did in the past, however. After someone tried to break through my old apartment's front door with obviously violent intentions, I realized that I was inadequately prepared to defend my loved ones. So I bought a gun. I was totally willing to use to it to take the health or life of a predatory aggressor in order to preserve the health and lives of my family members.
Out of curiosity, why did the assailant not get through the door to your family? What stopped him? If you had a gun, he would be dead now. Could be that would be better for everyone. Hard to say without knowing what became of him.
Where are all the people who say Buddhists only response is pacifism?
Ghandi always said non-violence is not pacifism(he called it active resistance) , but also that non-violence requires friendliness for all as a way of life and a willingness to die(in fact dieing is how non-violence gains its power).
Similarly bhante Seelananda, one of my teachers at bhavana also talks about the practice of dhamma and non violence to the point you are willing to die before commiting violence.
Im probably creating so much cognitive dissonance in some people lately, they think well how can someone who owns guns practice non violence.. Well surprise! Life isnt black and white.. Its good to have assumptions challanged.
You don't understand cognitive dissonance @jayantha, the inconsistency is in you, not in those that learn about you. A Buddhist who owns an AK47 probably should experience CD, for the simplistic reason that good people don't own bad things. Indeed, because good people don't own bad things, something must be wrong with those who think that a Buddhist who owns an AK47 is an inconsistency. That's how cognitive dissonance is commonly expressed anyway. :-/
You don't understand cognitive dissonance @jayantha, the inconsistency is in you, not in those that learn about you. A Buddhist who owns an AK47 probably should experience CD, for the simplistic reason that good people don't own bad things. Indeed, because good people don't own bad things, something must be wrong with those who think that a Buddhist who owns an AK47 is an inconsistency. That's how cognitive dissonance is commonly expressed anyway. :-/
Ah, a "bad" thing.. That is the disconnect. I was unaware material items had kamma and made decisions.
I have no cd because ive never harmed anyone or anything with my guns, why should i? Lets think critically here, not emotionally. To someone who puts judgments on an inanimate object, then i can see how they dont see the conflict..
I do have a question though, do police officers carry bad things on their hip?
I have really let myself go regarding these threads, but i wanted to make people think instead of falling back on emotions. When you are in a group where most people share the same political views there is no chance to question your beliefs and why you have them. so of all the times in the past year when i could of engaged in debate on non dhamma things but didnt, i guess i can allow me this one indiscretion.. Im not a fan of disputation.
There is precept in our zen school, one of the minor precepts that laypersons can take. One that all the monks must take of course. It says "do not possess implements of killing". [emphasis added] Of course that includes any kind of gun.
@seeker242 -- Would you care to cite the source of this admonition? I've never heard it ... which certainly doesn't prove it's not true.
I admit to thinking that the precept as stated, if true, is ludicrous. If true, I guess I would have to have my hands removed, since I might conceivably strangle someone with them. And get my arm muscles removed, since they bring force to the hands. And feet removed since I might need to walk to the place where I strangled my victim. And brain removed since plotting the crime might be necessary.
Precepts, as far as I can see, are offered as reminders of responsibility, not as anything someone might actually get a gold star for accomplishing. Everyone has the capacity to lie, cheat, steal, kill, etc. Whether and how they choose to exercise the capacity and to what degree ... that strikes me as being the point.
The source is the 10 minor precept of the Brama Net Sutra
10. On Storing Deadly Weapons
A disciple of the Buddha should not store weapons such as knives, clubs, bows, arrows, spears, axes or any other weapons, nor may he keep nets, traps or any such devices used in destroying life. (53)
53. Not looking after the sick (Minor precept No. 9) is to fail to save lives, while storing weapons is to create the conditions for actually destroying life. Both go against the Mind of Compassion of a Bodhisattva.
It's not ludicrous because hands are not deliberately designed to take life. Meanwhile, that is the purpose of such deadly weapons. You won't get arrested for carrying a concealed weapon just by putting your hands in your pocket. Same can't be said of a gun. Of course that does not apply to kitchen knives because the purpose of kitchen knives is to cut food, not to destroy life.
Comments
I do say that you should not eat animals, you should not own guns (except for the police and military). I ain't your boss and you can you shoot the criminal that is going to kill your family and feast on his flesh, too. That's between you and the law, which in most red states, the law will side with you. A good question though, is this Buddhism?
And from reading internet forums, there is nothing more repugnant than anyone someone trying to do good, so obviously I ain't winning any status points here, do you all think I'm so delude to think I am?
re: Jakata tale about killing bandits
This story is about a ship captain, some one in a place of authority using sanctioned force. This is different from universally arming everyone, and assuming civilians can execute potential criminals at will, without trial.
This thread will change no ones mind on gun control in the US. Someone in economics said the general opinion on some issues advances with funerals (i.e. no one changes, their mind, people with old opinions die and are replace with people who hold new opinions.) Maybe the widespread ownership of guns will help hasten the process.
@ matthewmartin
I think that a meditation practice is the attempt to allow phenomena to arise, live and fade away without feeding the conditioned impulses trying to control them.
I hope that my meditation practice and time spent here is more of an exploration of this moment's data, that an opinion of what that data should be.
Opinions as just identity meals to keep us satiated within our Ego dream, and Buddhism, a 2600 year old diet plan for waking up from that dream.
The only change I'd like to see on anyone's gun control opinions, is a willingness to question whatever it is.
What stopped him?
If you had a gun, he would be dead now. Could be that would be better for everyone.
Hard to say without knowing what became of him.
That way we can have all the NB endless discussions at once.
First one to mention Hitler wins the prize.
For those who concern themselves with Buddhism, I think dishonesty is an equally poor idea.
Similarly bhante Seelananda, one of my teachers at bhavana also talks about the practice of dhamma and non violence to the point you are willing to die before commiting violence.
Im probably creating so much cognitive dissonance in some people lately, they think well how can someone who owns guns practice non violence.. Well surprise! Life isnt black and white.. Its good to have assumptions challanged.
I have no cd because ive never harmed anyone or anything with my guns, why should i? Lets think critically here, not emotionally. To someone who puts judgments on an inanimate object, then i can see how they dont see the conflict..
I do have a question though, do police officers carry bad things on their hip?
I have really let myself go regarding these threads, but i wanted to make people think instead of falling back on emotions. When you are in a group where most people share the same political views there is no chance to question your beliefs and why you have them. so of all the times in the past year when i could of engaged in debate on non dhamma things but didnt, i guess i can allow me this one indiscretion.. Im not a fan of disputation.
I admit to thinking that the precept as stated, if true, is ludicrous. If true, I guess I would have to have my hands removed, since I might conceivably strangle someone with them. And get my arm muscles removed, since they bring force to the hands. And feet removed since I might need to walk to the place where I strangled my victim. And brain removed since plotting the crime might be necessary.
Precepts, as far as I can see, are offered as reminders of responsibility, not as anything someone might actually get a gold star for accomplishing. Everyone has the capacity to lie, cheat, steal, kill, etc. Whether and how they choose to exercise the capacity and to what degree ... that strikes me as being the point.
The source is the 10 minor precept of the Brama Net Sutra
10. On Storing Deadly Weapons
A disciple of the Buddha should not store weapons such as knives, clubs, bows, arrows, spears, axes or any other weapons, nor may he keep nets, traps or any such devices used in destroying life. (53)
53. Not looking after the sick (Minor precept No. 9) is to fail to save lives, while storing weapons is to create the conditions for actually destroying life. Both go against the Mind of Compassion of a Bodhisattva.
http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/bns/bnsframe.htm
It's not ludicrous because hands are not deliberately designed to take life. Meanwhile, that is the purpose of such deadly weapons. You won't get arrested for carrying a concealed weapon just by putting your hands in your pocket. Same can't be said of a gun. Of course that does not apply to kitchen knives because the purpose of kitchen knives is to cut food, not to destroy life.