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Morality x mind with no preferences

RodrigoRodrigo São Paulo, Brazil Veteran
I've read a lot about zen lately. Many texts and stories talk about the mind with no preferences, or the mind that doesn't discriminate. If that is a goal, what about all the moral principles we see in Buddhism? Isn't the foundation of any moral conduct to be able to discern between good and bad and act accordingly?

Comments

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    There is a subtle difference between discrimination and discernment. Discrimination is where we make egoic and partial choices. Discernment is where we operate from the higher imperative or clearer insight that allows us on occasion to break the very precepts that others cling to.

    Are you already on?
    http://www.zenforuminternational.org/

    They have a 'ask a teacher' section with smart zeniths who can provide details and hopefully a better answer.

    :wave:
    RodrigojaecvalueDakini
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    Rodrigo said:

    I've read a lot about zen lately. Many texts and stories talk about the mind with no preferences, or the mind that doesn't discriminate. If that is a goal, what about all the moral principles we see in Buddhism? Isn't the foundation of any moral conduct to be able to discern between good and bad and act accordingly?

    I'm not entirely sure since I'm not as familiar with Zen, but it may be talking about the awakened mind that one's trying to cultivate or realize. In the Pali Canon, the scriptural basis of Theravada, nibbana is defined as the extinction of craving (AN 10.60); the extinguishing of greed, hatred and delusion (SN 38.1); and is understood to be synonymous with the cessation of dukkha in the four noble truths (SN 56.11) and the cessation of kamma mentioned in SN 35.145.

    According to the Suttas, to gain release from samsara (literally 'wandering on') — referring to the continual cycle of death and rebirth of beings and the continual cycle of death and rebirth of the conceit 'I am,' the self-identification that designates a being (satta) — one must put an end to all types of kamma, not just the negative since kamma is a mental component inherently tied to, and influenced by, greed, hatred, and delusion (AN 3.33).

    That's why the noble eightfold path is called "the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma" (SN 35.145). They're skillful actions that, when used appropriately, have the potential to ultimately lead to the elimination of the skillful/unskillful dichotomy altogether, leaving only happiness (Dhp XV), contentment (Thag 9), peace (Snp 2.1), freedom (SN 36.31), and moral perfection behind (AN 9.7). As St. Maximus writes in Opuscula theologica et polemica (albeit from a Christian perspective), "A perfect nature has no need of choice, for it knows naturally what is good. Its freedom is based on this knowledge."

    So when talking about the mind with no preferences, or the mind that doesn't discriminate, it may be talking about the mind free from defilements, the 'luminous mind' of AN 1.49-52 which Thanissaro Bhikkhu equates with the stage that MN 24 calls "purity in terms of mind." And this 'luminous mind,' 'purified mind,' or 'mind that doesn't discriminate' no longer has the need to discriminate between good and bad, skillful and unskillful, right and wrong. What arises in naturally inline with the Dhamma. It's a mind characterized by knowledge and vision of things as they are.
    fivebellssova
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    @Rodrigo
    I think Lobster is spot on but just to add...

    It is natural to think of moral conduct as being essential to what keeps us from being immoral but that is just part of an egocentric view.
    There is a transition in a Buddhist meditation practice where the source of ones moral compass transcends the limits of ones conditioned mentality and instead manifests as the fruition of relative selflessness.
    Empathy, sympathy, tenderness, compassion, benevolence and love unfold simply in the absence of our "us verses them" conditioning. This is what is meant by "a mind that doesn't discriminate or a mind with no preferences". It is only speaking of a mind/heart that is free from being leashed to it's own identity.
    As a goal, impossible! As a practice though, it is the goal of goalessness.
    lobsterHamsakaRodrigosova
  • matthewmartinmatthewmartin Amateur Bodhisattva Suburbs of Mt Meru Veteran
    edited January 2014
    I'm a zen skeptic (with respect to nondualism). Nondualism makes the most sense in psychological and social situations, not so much with abstractions. The difference between being rich and poor, happy and sad, African American or white, my goals vs the goals of everyone else-- they're artificial distinctions, maybe damaging ones.

    On the otherhand, there is a distinction between left and right, true and false, morally skillful and morally unskillful, 2 still doesn't equal 1 in ordinary arithmetic. I'm skeptical of attempt to apply nondualism to in intangible. Maybe zen talk about the nondualism of the intangible is rhetorical hyperbole.

    The other way I see nondualism is a kick in the head to get you to look at life differently-- try looking at the universe as if it is all one thing, indistinguishable conceptual goop. It's not the kick in the head that is the profound thing, it's what you see or realize afterwards the kick in the head.

    Can't say I've experienced for myself yet. So in zen style, you'll have to try and see.
  • Well this is basically impossible to understand if you're coming from a dualistic perspective. And all understanding and perspective is dualistic as you stated. Everything is divided between Good or Bad.

    A mind free from all reference points is the awakened heart. It is the non conceptual, visceral experience of the center of the chest expanded infinitely outwards as a nothingness, yet filled with warmth and caring.

    From there one acts spontaneously in a form of compassion for the other.

    The mind will always want to know if you actually helped someone. Well you can't know that. That's the humility of being a bodhisattva. You must act with love without any traces of acting, actor, love, or anything. Its just giving without knowing you're giving. Without making a project or story or collecting karmic points.

    There is no reward because fundamentally its all emptiness. This is very joyful for a bodhisattva because that means you can give infinite things without ever losing anything. This means you can simultaneously hold the pain of the individual in front of you and that gives rise to compassion and at the same time be totally liberated from seeing the individual as a being that is suffering. Because you are so well, you can actually help.

    But whether or not they are being helped is impossible to know for sure. But we do it anyways. There are infinite sentient beings, I vow to liberate them all!
    JeffreyRodrigosova
  • The idea that there is greater morality than that which results from social conditioning is difficult to grasp if we insist on using that same social conditioning as the criterion
    Those people I have met who dwell in non dual states have a natural ease and openness and kindness which does not depend on ticking off items on their how to behave list.
    JeffreytaiyakiRodrigosova
  • RodrigoRodrigo São Paulo, Brazil Veteran
    Thank you for the great answers. They were all very enlightening.
    sova
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    i must also offer my sincere thanks. thanks for illuminating a tiny firefly like me <3
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