Dog training

betaboy

Is it true that our minds are not unlike a dog - you train it to do this or that? For instance, let's say you have a habit of reacting violently to a certain situation. Each time such a situation arises, you have to train it to do otherwise - so that you get into a new habit, the habit of not reacting.

So, in a way, it's all about dog training, isn't it?

robot

Is that what you think?

how

Sit betaboy, sit!

Theswingisyellow

Being animals your analogy is probably not far off. Reminds me of a zen idea to mind the ox, maybe it's really about ox training.

jae

@betaboy ....ha ...you could have a point, as a mother and dog adopter a firm, kind and praise filled training full of distractions has been the most productive way for positive results. (I've done my fair share of shouting and know it just leaves everyone feeling frazled)..are you still feeling upbeat today? (Hope so)

federica

It would be far more accurate to say that humans have a pack mentality.
As a seasoned dog behaviourist, I know that genetically, no matter what the breed, dogs are essentially 97% wolf.

The history of a connection between man and dog goes back nigh on 250,000 years. And as mammals, we tend to respond to similar stimulii....

betaboy

how said:

Sit betaboy, sit!

WOOF!

robot

federica said:

It would be far more accurate to say that humans have a pack mentality.
As a seasoned dog behaviourist, I know that genetically, no matter what the breed, dogs are essentially 97% wolf.

The history of a connection between man and dog goes back nigh on 250,000 years. And as mammals, we tend to respond to similar stimulii....

It is my understanding also that dogs were all bred from wolves. What would the other 3% be? Some other type of dog like thing, maybe a fox? Foxes came from wolves too though, I think.

Cinorjer

Well, we're not dogs. But as a life-long member of the man-dog relationship, I see pack behavior and stimulus-reward learning in them that echo our behavior. Like us, they're territorial, loyal to their own group and willing to defend their family from threats.

Probably why you never hear stories of a cat that waited the rest of its life at the gravesite of its dead owner.

Zero

betaboy said:

Is it true that our minds are not unlike a dog - you train it to do this or that?

In the sense that a dog's behaviour is a reflection of the owner, then I suppose shouting after yourself to behave seems like chasing a misbehaving dog.

ThailandTom

Ajahn Brahm once said 'a dog that barks too much is considered a bad dog, similarly a man who talks too much is considered a bad man'

Going back to the whole dog breeding conversation, I saw a documentary a couple of years ago about it and my memory is a little shady, but they were bred from wolves and I forget how, but essentially the modern day dog has a younger mental age of a wolf, it is as if it has the brain of a baby wolf but the body of a fully devolved dog, hence why they are playful for the most part.

Cinorjer

ThailandTom said:

Ajahn Brahm once said 'a dog that barks too much is considered a bad dog, similarly a man who talks too much is considered a bad man'

Going back to the whole dog breeding conversation, I saw a documentary a couple of years ago about it and my memory is a little shady, but they were bred from wolves and I forget how, but essentially the modern day dog has a younger mental age of a wolf, it is as if it has the brain of a baby wolf but the body of a fully devolved dog, hence why they are playful for the most part.

Yes, the experiment was to compare adult dog behavior to wolf puppy behavior when it comes to taking cues from the perceived adults, and a dogs mental maturity seems to be stuck in the puppy wolf stage, looking to us for their cues even after they grow up. I also read recently that genetic testing proved no dogs can trace their ancestry from existing wolf populations, but instead both dogs and modern wolfs trace back to a now extinct species of wolf.

federica

ThailandTom said:

Ajahn Brahm once said 'a dog that barks too much is considered a bad dog, similarly a man who talks too much is considered a bad man'

Going back to the whole dog breeding conversation, I saw a documentary a couple of years ago about it and my memory is a little shady, but they were bred from wolves and I forget how, but essentially the modern day dog has a younger mental age of a wolf, it is as if it has the brain of a baby wolf but the body of a fully devolved dog, hence why they are playful for the most part.

This is true to a point: The more like a wolf a dog looks, the more like a wolf he behaves. So huskies, malamutes and akitas have very strong wolverine traits and tendencies, and are strong-willed, fiercely loyal and need an extremely adept hand when it comes to Pack leadership and control.

To answer your question on the remaining 3%, @robot, it's whatever, frankly, we have shoved in there through cross breeding, trait-adaptation and genetic engineering, if you like.

We have bred different types of dogs to answer certain human requirements, but we have attempted to retain a juvenile behaviour pattern to make it easier to train the dog, encourage it to comply, be dependent and affectionate. Of course, this hasn't always worked in our favour.

These requirements are now relatively rare, socially speaking; the percentage of dogs owned by people, who use them for their original intention and breed purpose, is now extremely small. By far and away the greatest reason people own dogs, is to have a canine companion.
The dogs, however, still carry these inherent, in-bred traits. Our canine companions therefore have three options:

To adapt to their new environment, and abdicate their specified duty;

To become bored, stressed and nervous, because we require to be something they have not been bred to be, and we want them to stop being what they're meant to be;

Or to become more aggressive and unmanageable, because they insist on being who they are, against what we would prefer them to be.

My job as a Dog behaviourist more often than not, required me to deal with the second option.
Sadly, there were a few occasions (four, to be precise) when option three was the problem.

And you'll never guess which breed was demonstrating clear and evident signs of aggression, dominance and quasi-uncontrollable Alpha traits?

In every case - the Labrador.

anataman

betaboy said:

Is it true that our minds are not unlike a dog - you train it to do this or that? For instance, let's say you have a habit of reacting violently to a certain situation. Each time such a situation arises, you have to train it to do otherwise - so that you get into a new habit, the habit of not reacting.

So, in a way, it's all about dog training, isn't it?

No I believe that our minds are not dogs that need to be trained, rather they are animals that need exercise; we should give them a bone to gnaw on, stroke them, pick up their crap when we take them for a walk to safeguard the health of others, feed and water them, take them to the vets when they are lame, and as they get older and we become more familiar with their nature accept their bad habits of chewing the furniture and the kids toys, chasing the next door neighbours cats, the foxes and squirrels, let them in when they are barking incessantly and then when they become infirm and old and diseased be there to comfort them and when necessary, put them down.

Hamsaka

betaboy said:

Is it true that our minds are not unlike a dog - you train it to do this or that? For instance, let's say you have a habit of reacting violently to a certain situation. Each time such a situation arises, you have to train it to do otherwise - so that you get into a new habit, the habit of not reacting.

So, in a way, it's all about dog training, isn't it?

You lack a sense of subtlety, Betaboy, but this is a pretty good question imo.

Perhaps your mind is not unlike a dog's, that you can train to do this or that. My own mind has primitive elements that appear to respond to 'training' exactly the way a dog's behavior is modified by reward and punishment. My 'whole' mind is a lot more complex than a dog's mind, and a lot more dangerous, so it's not ALL about dog training when it comes to my practice. My human mind contains a 'dog' mind, so to speak, but it's a subset of a greater whole.

Is it ironic to point out that dogs are considered impure in Middle East culture? Kind of like goats (esp billy goats) get that 'evil' attribution over here in the West. I know calling someone a dog is a low insult in Islam. Are you perhaps experiencing some humiliation at the idea of submitting yourself to a Buddhist discipline? You wouldn't be alone there.

Gassho

Hamsaka

P.S. I'm very clear you are not a Muslim. I'm speaking to the cultural understructure you absorbed helplessly from your family who helplessly absorbed it and so forth backward into the generations.