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Pure Land Explanation?

Ethan_McCuneEthan_McCune Explorer
in Buddhism Basics
In the Diamond Sutra the Buddha says that anyone who claims to be able to make a paradise is not a true disciple. Nothing against Amitabha Buddha, but how can there be a Pure Land? Is the Pure Land symbolic of your own perception or what?

Comments

  • JainarayanJainarayan Veteran
    There are many pure lands. They are not created by the buddha or bodhisattva, but arise or emanate spontaneously out of the buddha's or bodhisattva's pure qualities after achieving buddhahood. If one is devoted to Amitabha, for example, that person would go to Amitabha's pure land of Sukhavati. I don't think they are physical realms, but spiritual or celestial, much as the Christian heaven is not a physical place. This is my understanding.
    Ethan_McCuneInvincible_summer
  • Ethan_McCuneEthan_McCune Explorer
    Jainarayan said:

    There are many pure lands. They are not created by the buddha or bodhisattva, but arise or emanate spontaneously out of the buddha's or bodhisattva's pure qualities after achieving buddhahood. If one is devoted to Amitabha, for example, that person would go to Amitabha's pure land of Sukhavati. I don't think they are physical realms, but spiritual or celestial, much as the Christian heaven is not a physical place. This is my understanding.

    This makes a lot more sense. Thank you :)
  • matthewmartinmatthewmartin Amateur Bodhisattva Suburbs of Mt Meru Veteran
    edited February 2014
    Almost sounds like an attempt to preclude a naturalistic interpretation of a Pure Land.

    AFAIK, a Pure Land is a place that is especially ideal for the practice of Buddhism. There is a Datsan and Dojo and Stupa on every corner, the Buddha-mart gives away sutras and meditation cushions for free and the cushions don't cause excruciating back pain.

    If that is a Pure Land, you can create a Pure Land here (and many modern PL sects essentially say this), do good works for others, build that Stupa, give people free cushions and voila, we have ourselves a Pure Land.

    Also there is the view of PL where an Azuhra-Mazda like superbeing takes you to a Zoroastrian-like heaven, where things are just nice and pleasant and you need not do anything *difficult* to get there because Amida will take care of the details. For me, this explains PL-- Buddhism picked up some lightly reformed Sun gods during its short stay in Afghanistan before it move on to China. *Not bad*, just something to keep in mind if you are trying to figure out why PL Buddhism has something *different* about it from the other Buddhisms.
    Ethan_McCuneanatamanInvincible_summer
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    That has been pretty much my line of thinking @mathewmartin, but consider this: in Mahayana buddhism the Trikaya states that buddha has 3 bodies:

    1. The Dharmakāya or Truth body which embodies the very principle of enlightenment without limit or boundaries
    2. The Sambhogakāya or body of bliss or state of clear light manifestation
    3. The Nirmāṇakāya or the body that manifests in the material world

    We are tapping away and secreting these thoughts in the Nirmāṇakāya body.

    In a state of meditation we can experience Sambhogakāya, and it is in this state that the Pure Land can manifest, and that is the state where we are able to practice to develop the wisdom mind that reveals the Dharmakāya, and even if it is not regarded as complete enlightenment or awakening, it is still a more awakened state of mind than that carried around by the Nirmāṇakāya body.

    Hope that makes some kind of sense. Tap. Tap. Tap.
    Ethan_McCunelobster
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    You might think of them as wheels or realms of attunement with purity and blessing associated with particular practices. When we chant or otherwise practice we are connecting on different levels with the protection and resonance of past, present and future potential. This is a small part of mantra usage, which I do in between formal sits to keep the Buddhas happy for when I need them . . .

    Oh yeah you can't have too many Buddhas . . .
    Spiritual consumerism, buy into it but don't get attached to the payments . . . ;)
    Ethan_McCuneanataman
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    I have always had many questions about this pure land thing. This practice feels so alien to me with regards to Buddhism that I've always wondered about it.

    is the pure land permanent? or is it like any other heaven realm where you are born into it for a time then born into another realm? Why would you WANT to go to the pureland if you are on quest of awakening? if you are a Bodhisattva is this a place you stay for a time on your long wait for everyone to be enlightened?

    in all honestly I want to learn more, but I don't think I care to read a dissertation on the subject either, it's not THAT important for me.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    edited February 2014
    @seeker242 posted this link on 'basic primordial ground' thread @Jayantha - it may be helpful at looking at the pure land in a way that makes some kind of sense and it may not, it's short and sweet
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html
  • JainarayanJainarayan Veteran
    Jayantha said:


    is the pure land permanent? or is it like any other heaven realm where you are born into it for a time then born into another realm? Why would you WANT to go to the pureland if you are on quest of awakening? if you are a Bodhisattva is this a place you stay for a time on your long wait for everyone to be enlightened?

    It's not permanent, but a "stopover". When you get to a pure land, the idea is to be in the presence of the buddha or bodhisattva of that pure land, to be taught directly and achieve enlightenment. It's also a respite from the cycle of rebirth if you are not ready for liberation, again, receiving "training" to help break the cycle. If you achieve arhat-hood, you have the option of liberation or returning to one of the six realms to help other sentient beings.
    BhikkhuJayasaraanatamanEthan_McCuneInvincible_summer
  • cvaluecvalue Veteran
    edited February 2014
    @Jayantha, think of Pure Land as the best Buddhist university. We can't get better teacher than Amitabha Buddha and it also offers the best environment to study because there are no needs for hatred and greed there.

    My teacher started as Zen Buddhist, he had hard time to believe in Pure Land, but now he moves from Zen to Pure Land after he studied deep in Mahayana sutra, suddenly it made sense for him.

    I didn't remember everything he said, something like - (I try my best here to explain in my language so it might not be completely right) - My teacher didn't believe in Pure Land because it has forms. According to him, it's impossible because Nirvana is completely empty and Pure Land has form! ... I can't remember the middle of his lecture ... but the end of his lecture is Pure Land has form so it's only created temporarily by the vow of Amitabha Buddha to help anybody who wish to be enlightened. Even though it's temporary but it can last for a very long time. It lasts for as long as there are still people who wish to apply for this school.

    Because of his personal experience, he said it's very difficult to make Mahayana beginners to believe in Pure Land.
    Invincible_summerzsc
  • JainarayanJainarayan Veteran
    I don't know if it was here or somewhere else, but someone said to me that Pure Land is sort of a lazy cop-out form of Buddhism... practice nembutsu/nianfo and all is well. But that smacks of the oft-cited Christian criticism that if you say "Christ you know I love you, did you see I waved? I believe in you and God so tell me that I'm saved" (apologies to Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice :D ) on your deathbed, you go straight to heaven. But I don't think that's the case at all. Buddhism of any school or sect still requires following the Eightfold Path, Three Jewels and Four Noble Truths, not to mention the Six Perfections and Five Precepts. So, imo there's nothing lazy about Pure Land practice, except maybe that nianfo is meditation.
  • Ethan_McCuneEthan_McCune Explorer
    cvalue said:

    @Jayantha, think of Pure Land as the best Buddhist university. We can't get better teacher than Amitabha Buddha and it also offers the best environment to study because there are no needs for hatred and greed there.

    My teacher started as Zen Buddhist, he had hard time to believe in Pure Land, but now he moves from Zen to Pure Land after he studied deep in Mahayana sutra, suddenly it made sense for him.

    I didn't remember everything he said, something like - (I try my best here to explain in my language so it might not be completely right) - My teacher didn't believe in Pure Land because it has forms. According to him, it's impossible because Nirvana is completely empty and Pure Land has form! ... I can't remember the middle of his lecture ... but the end of his lecture is Pure Land has form so it's only created temporarily by the vow of Amitabha Buddha to help anybody who wish to be enlightened. Even though it's temporary but it can last for a very long time. It lasts for as long as there are still people who wish to apply for this school.

    Because of his personal experience, he said it's very difficult to make Mahayana beginners to believe in Pure Land.

    But the Diamond Sutra says you can't "make" a paradise. How did the pure land come to be?
  • cvaluecvalue Veteran
    People can't be lazy if they want to achieve something in Buddhism. Pure Land at first glance seems to be easy but it's not. Because, in the end, we must achieve the same emptiness state as in meditation.

    Many Pure Land practicers recite 30,000 "Amitabha Buddha" each day. It takes me 45 minutes to recite only 1000 "Amitabha Buddha". So I wonder how they do that?

    Once a year, I try to go to a retreat for 7 days and during these 7 days, besides necessary time for eat, sleep and toilet, the rest of the time is devoted to reciting Amitabha. But it's impossible for me to reach 30,000 a day. My maximum is 10,000 to 12,000 recites a day. This is my schedule for these annual 7 days:

    6:00AM - 6:30AM : recite 5 times the Heart Dharani sutra and perform prostrations.
    6:30AM - 7:15AM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    7:15AM - 8:00AM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    Dedicate merit to Pure Land. Vow to go to Pure Land.
    ---------------------
    8:00AM - 9:00AM : rest and breakfast
    ---------------------
    9:00AM - 9:45AM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    9:45AM - 10:30AM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    10:30AM - 11:15AM: 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    11:15AM - 12:00PM: 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    Dedicate merit to Pure Land. Vow to go to Pure Land.
    ---------------------
    12:00PM - 1:00PM : rest and lunch
    ---------------------
    1:00PM - 1:45PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    1:45PM - 2:30PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    2:30PM - 3:15PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    3:15PM - 4:00PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    Dedicate merit to Pure Land. Vow to go to Pure Land.
    ---------------------
    4:00PM - 6:00PM : longer break for dinner
    ---------------------
    Optional: (if not too exhausted)
    6:00PM - 6:45PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    6:45PM - 7:30PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    7:30PM - 8:15PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    8:15PM - 9:00PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    Dedicate merit to Pure Land. Vow to go to Pure Land.
    ---------------------
    Bed time.
    JainarayanlobsterInvincible_summerzsc
  • JainarayanJainarayan Veteran
    Remember I wrote "arise or emanate spontaneously out of the buddha's or bodhisattva's pure qualities after achieving buddhahood". No one created heat and light from the sun. They are qualities that emanate from the sun after the sun achieved "sunhood". We benefit from the heat and light from the sun, we are enveloped by its heat and light and do productive things in it. In the same way we'd benefit from the pure land that emanates from a buddha or bodhisattva, be enveloped by it and do productive things in it. :)
    Ethan_McCuneanatamancvaluezsc
  • matthewmartinmatthewmartin Amateur Bodhisattva Suburbs of Mt Meru Veteran
    Jainarayan said:

    Buddhism of any school or sect still requires following the Eightfold Path, Three Jewels and Four Noble Truths, not to mention the Six Perfections and Five Precepts. So, imo there's nothing lazy about Pure Land practice, except maybe that nianfo is meditation.

    That would be true for Chan for sure, but with comments like these from Shinran (Japanese PL)
    "Even the good person is saved, how much more so the evil doer"
    I would say the impression that works are irrelevant (this form of PL) is warranted, if Shinran really meant the reverse (that good works matter), he should have said so-- so either this is an example of being completely unclear, or an example of PL as sort of a devotional, no-work to do religion. (Yes, I'm still hopeful when I get around to reading in my book club an Pure Land apologist defend PL that there is something more than meets the casual eye)
    anataman
  • JainarayanJainarayan Veteran
    cvalue said:

    People can't be lazy if they want to achieve something in Buddhism. Pure Land at first glance seems to be easy but it's not. Because, in the end, we must achieve the same emptiness state as in meditation.

    Yes, exactly my point. :thumbsup:
    anatamancvalue
  • Ethan_McCuneEthan_McCune Explorer
    cvalue said:

    People can't be lazy if they want to achieve something in Buddhism. Pure Land at first glance seems to be easy but it's not. Because, in the end, we must achieve the same emptiness state as in meditation.

    Many Pure Land practicers recite 30,000 "Amitabha Buddha" each day. It takes me 45 minutes to recite only 1000 "Amitabha Buddha". So I wonder how they do that?

    Once a year, I try to go to a retreat for 7 days and during these 7 days, besides necessary time for eat, sleep and toilet, the rest of the time is devoted to reciting Amitabha. But it's impossible for me to reach 30,000 a day. My maximum is 10,000 to 12,000 recites a day. This is my schedule for these annual 7 days:

    6:00AM - 6:30AM : recite 5 times the Heart Dharani sutra and perform prostrations.
    6:30AM - 7:15AM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    7:15AM - 8:00AM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    Dedicate merit to Pure Land. Vow to go to Pure Land.
    ---------------------
    8:00AM - 9:00AM : rest and breakfast
    ---------------------
    9:00AM - 9:45AM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    9:45AM - 10:30AM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    10:30AM - 11:15AM: 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    11:15AM - 12:00PM: 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    Dedicate merit to Pure Land. Vow to go to Pure Land.
    ---------------------
    12:00PM - 1:00PM : rest and lunch
    ---------------------
    1:00PM - 1:45PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    1:45PM - 2:30PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    2:30PM - 3:15PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    3:15PM - 4:00PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    Dedicate merit to Pure Land. Vow to go to Pure Land.
    ---------------------
    4:00PM - 6:00PM : longer break for dinner
    ---------------------
    Optional: (if not too exhausted)
    6:00PM - 6:45PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    6:45PM - 7:30PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    7:30PM - 8:15PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    8:15PM - 9:00PM : 1000 recites "Amitabha Buddha".
    Dedicate merit to Pure Land. Vow to go to Pure Land.
    ---------------------
    Bed time.

    30,000?! How could anyone do that?!
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran

    But the Diamond Sutra says you can't "make" a paradise. How did the pure land come to be?
    But the Diamond Sutra says you can't "make" a paradise. How did the pure land come to be?
    Who said that the pure land was without suffering? I bet Amitabha, gives those idle buddhists a good slap to wake them up from their reverie thinking:
    'I'm so enlightened, here I am in the pure land. Amitabha, knows how enlightened I am, I'm just abuddha, and they're just 'who mans' and they are wand'rin and they are lost, and... "SLAP' ' - Think that again says Amitabha and you'll spend a lot more time in the human realm, thats it lesson over - go be a human again, I'll open the doors to you again when you've learned your lesson 'slap - be off with you now'. Hell realm opens up and swallows buddhist and buddhist learns lesson!
    Ethan_McCune
  • cvaluecvalue Veteran
    edited February 2014
    Interesting! Ajahn Chah is a Theravadan but I find what he said here interesting:
    Clarity of Insight (Ajahn Chah Teachings)

    MEDITATE RECITING “Buddho”, “Buddho” until it penetrates deep into the heart of your consciousness (citta ). The word “Buddho” represents the awareness and wisdom of the Buddha. In practice, you must depend on this word more than anything else. The awareness it brings will lead you to understand the truth about your own mind. It's a true refuge, which means that there is both mindfulness and insight present.

    Wild animals can have awareness of a sort. They have mindfulness as they stalk their prey and prepare to attack. Even the predator needs firm mindfulness to keep hold of the captured prey however defiantly it struggles to escape death. That is one kind of mindfulness. For this reason you must be able to distinguish between different kinds of mindfulness. The Buddha taught to meditate reciting “Buddho” as a way to apply the mind. When you consciously apply the mind to an object, it wakes up. The awareness wakes it up. Once this knowing has arisen through meditation, you can see the mind clearly. As long as the mind remains without the awareness of “Buddho”, even if there is ordinary worldly mindfulness present, it is as if unawakened and without insight. It will not lead you to what is truly beneficial.

    Sati or mindfulness depends on the presence of “Buddho” – the knowing. It must be a clear knowing, which leads to the mind becoming brighter and more radiant. The illuminating effect that this clear knowing has on the mind is similar to the brightening of a light in a darkened room. As long as the room is pitch black, any objects placed inside remain dificult to distinguish or else completely obscured from view because of the lack of light. But as you begin intensifying the brightness of the light inside, it will penetrate throughout the whole room, enabling you to see more clearly from moment to moment, thus allowing you to know more and more the details of any object inside there.

    You could also compare training the mind with teaching a child. It would be impossible to force a child, who still hadn't learnt to speak, to accumulate knowledge at an unnaturally fast rate that was beyond its capability. You couldn't get too tough with it or try teaching it more language than it could take in at any one time, because the child would simply be unable to hold its attention on what you were saying for long enough.
    anatamanzsc
  • gracklegrackle Veteran
    In addition to recitation there are rather precise visualizations. So it is far from easy. Some C'han and Tien Tai masters were also followers of Pureland. Chanting of Amitahba is powerful and liberating. While not my primary way I deeply respect and venerate the PL teachings.
    cvaluelobster
  • JainarayanJainarayan Veteran
    grackle said:

    In addition to recitation there are rather precise visualizations. So it is far from easy. Some C'han and Tien Tai masters were also followers of Pureland. Chanting of Amitahba is powerful and liberating. While not my primary way I deeply respect and venerate the PL teachings.

    There is a long Amitabha sadhana that requires empowerment, and a short one that does not. The long one involves visualization, if I remember correctly from what I read. Not my cup of tea, personally.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    It's not surprising we don't have many Pure Land folks here in the West. It's a pathway of faith, and for most of us, if we preferred a faith based practice, we would have found comfort in more mainstream faith based religions.

    Nothing wrong with a simple practice of devotion. Just not my own cup of tea.
    Ethan_McCunematthewmartin
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