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Interdependent Co-arising
anataman
Who needs a title?Where am I? Veteran
in Meditation
I offer this post with serious intent, but still with a sense of humour for my illusory world and the resultant deluded mind. I am hoping someone here will be able to give me a pointer to something that is not being fully understood by the wisdom mind.
I have been meditating with a lot more effort in the past week and in particular have been mindfully studying interdependent co-arisng, not in the sense of wondering about karma and rebirth into other realms, and future re-births but in the sense of moment to moment arisings in the mind.
I started early this morning with a hard work out in the gym, I find that I am more relaxed mentally when I have exercised. I then started meditating, I didn't formally take refuge, as I have come to the conclusion that that is given whenever I meditate now, perhaps that should be reevaluated. I started by being mindful of ignorance (avijja) as the basis for suffering and very quickly reached the state which may be familiar with many of you, and is that state of awareness where the luminous mind recognises that form and emptiness are the same. I was able to maintain that state fairly comfortably for a short while. something I realise I had not achieved fully until today. I offer this image again as it speaks volumes, and for those who are unfamiliar with it, it makes light work of what can be a spiritually sapping read:
However, thoughts did arise and the mind wandered after them, and the forms rapidly solidified, and I was able to recognise that I had gone through sankhara (concoction stage) and vinnana (consciousness) before I was able to briefly observe the transition through the other stages to becoming (Bahva), where I let go of the attachment and craving and became mindful of avijja again, and then the forms rapidly dissolved into the luminous mind resting in that awareness, I went through this a few times and when I had finished the sitting meditation I decided not to end the mediation but to observe myself at the craving stage, focusing on craving for one experience in particular. I went on to let myself continue to the birth stage, and noted that I felt unfulfilled by the experience. It was interesting and just before I started this post I offered up this experience for the enlightenment of all beings in the traditional way. Then the thoughts came crashing in around me, feeding of each other and causing more craving but I have been watching them and let them come and go, as much as possible.
My problem: I thought that I had completely missed sankhara each and every time, such that I can only conclude that something was happening where form and emptiness was one, and that there was still a subtle clinging.
My understanding, and correct me if you think I am wrong was this: When I was at the form is emptiness stage there was still this 'I' that was perceiving form and emptiness, and I was ignorant of it, and in reality I was only at the Sankhara stage of interdependent co-arising. I would value any views and support, to help me progress further, to eliminate this subtle I, to experience true emptiness. Then I will be truly happy!
Perhaps I am just impatient?
Mettha
I have been meditating with a lot more effort in the past week and in particular have been mindfully studying interdependent co-arisng, not in the sense of wondering about karma and rebirth into other realms, and future re-births but in the sense of moment to moment arisings in the mind.
I started early this morning with a hard work out in the gym, I find that I am more relaxed mentally when I have exercised. I then started meditating, I didn't formally take refuge, as I have come to the conclusion that that is given whenever I meditate now, perhaps that should be reevaluated. I started by being mindful of ignorance (avijja) as the basis for suffering and very quickly reached the state which may be familiar with many of you, and is that state of awareness where the luminous mind recognises that form and emptiness are the same. I was able to maintain that state fairly comfortably for a short while. something I realise I had not achieved fully until today. I offer this image again as it speaks volumes, and for those who are unfamiliar with it, it makes light work of what can be a spiritually sapping read:
However, thoughts did arise and the mind wandered after them, and the forms rapidly solidified, and I was able to recognise that I had gone through sankhara (concoction stage) and vinnana (consciousness) before I was able to briefly observe the transition through the other stages to becoming (Bahva), where I let go of the attachment and craving and became mindful of avijja again, and then the forms rapidly dissolved into the luminous mind resting in that awareness, I went through this a few times and when I had finished the sitting meditation I decided not to end the mediation but to observe myself at the craving stage, focusing on craving for one experience in particular. I went on to let myself continue to the birth stage, and noted that I felt unfulfilled by the experience. It was interesting and just before I started this post I offered up this experience for the enlightenment of all beings in the traditional way. Then the thoughts came crashing in around me, feeding of each other and causing more craving but I have been watching them and let them come and go, as much as possible.
My problem: I thought that I had completely missed sankhara each and every time, such that I can only conclude that something was happening where form and emptiness was one, and that there was still a subtle clinging.
My understanding, and correct me if you think I am wrong was this: When I was at the form is emptiness stage there was still this 'I' that was perceiving form and emptiness, and I was ignorant of it, and in reality I was only at the Sankhara stage of interdependent co-arising. I would value any views and support, to help me progress further, to eliminate this subtle I, to experience true emptiness. Then I will be truly happy!
Perhaps I am just impatient?
Mettha
3
Comments
When we find ourselves in the flow, there is automatic distinction but when we are the flow there is an awareness beyond self awareness that doesn't discriminate. As soon as a label is used, it's over and we come back to our frame of reference.
I know the yinyang is more a Taoist symbol but let's say yin is self and yang is absolutely everything else. They are seen as opposites but they turn into each other. Yin may be the opposite of yang but there is no opposite for the yinyang. The fine line that distinguishes one from the other is to me, the middle path... The path we walk whether we know it or not.
It is hard to even say "We are one" because to have one, there must be other to use as reference for one. It all just is and it is from an infinite amount of perspectives. Even if we could see through them all at the same time, new ones are born with every being born.
With no true borders, one cannot rightly be defined.
Perhaps that may appear to be the case to you, but it's a personality trait, and I recognise it, and know when not to analyse. I find that I become more motivated to meditate and practice when I analyse what I am doing. Hence this post.
So the answer is yes. But when I am in a meditative state then no because the I doing the analysing just brings you out of the state you are attaining. Did you read and understand the post?
Mettha
As @Rodrigo pointed out, I analyse myself a lot - isn't that really what we are told to do. Be mindful, and analyse what's going on, and yet not to cling to the analysed i.e. to learn to know when to let go. There is right mindfulness, but when do you know you are experiencing mindfulness correctly. I would suggest after you have analysed yourself a bit.
I was hoping you may have something insightful to say @ Chaz. Oh well, I'll I can only take what is offered.
Mettha
To clarify for those reading this post, as it may be misinterpreted, I am not saying in the OP that I was able to say at any one point 'ah here I am in this stage - that labelling would be illusory', I am merely illustrating the process of recognitionthat was going on, and I can reflect on and follow on the thangka. The aim of the 'over-analysis' was to achieve a goal. I don't know what goes on in your mind when you meditate, I've just got to try and comprehend from the way you present it to me from a common structure we share, i.e. our language. Hopefully, someone can say - yes, been there, done that, got the t-shirt, here's what you are doing wrong. Or something similar to @ourself, that I can recognise and be mindful of next time. This is the right view I am looking for.
I know someone's going to say just meditate, and I know how empty that statement is, I often use it myself, but it doesn't help me conquer the obstacles or change the process, if I don't have the right view when I am meditating.
Mettha
You can't seek clarity without understanding, that is why I like using the Thangka, it's not all words and you can keep going round and around it, each time picking up a little nugget of wisdom, for instance do you notice how the boddhisattva's finger's shadow is what is eclipsing the moon; it depends on what perspective you have to the source of light. lol
Mettha
not my words, but if you can intuit them they will solve your dilemma.
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2013/11/total-exertion-of-karmic-tendencies.html
Karmic propensity is the whole of one's experiential reality. If one feels like a changeless witness, that experience of feeling like a changeless witness IS that propensity in action, in experience... if one is seeing fully that there's only transience (the radiant flow of sights/sounds/smells/taste/touch/thoughts), that is the actualization of wisdom (of anatta).
If one sees manifestation but appears solid, that's also the view of latent tendency, that view of inherent existence in action. That very feeling of concreteness IS karmic tendency. If one sees this very presence (of any experience - sight, sound, smell, etc) is empty of any it-ness, concreteness, solidity, apparent yet empty, that very vision itself is the actualization of wisdom, it is the total exertion of wisdom, it IS wisdom. Or as Dzogchen puts it - those very five elements (space, wind, fire, water, earth) are wisdoms by nature, so experienced in its actual state, is that actualization of wisdom.
In a way, the view is the experience... every samsaric experience is the total exertion of ignorance along with the 12 links in a single moment. Occasionally ignorant view is forgotten in a peak experience, such a cessation is however non-analytical and merely a passing state, as the conditions for the re-emergence of ignorance and afflictions have not been cut off from its roots. Only the analytical cessation resulting from penetrative prajna wisdom of twofold emptiness can lead to a permanent and quantum shift of perception away from ignorance, what Lankavatara Sutra calls the "turning-about" in the deepest seat of consciousness (but again this deepest seat is not somewhere else but fully manifesting!).
So the karmic tendency, and wisdom, you've been searching for has never been elsewhere but is staring right in your face as your experiential reality all along! Funny how one doesn't see that. That very activity that is mentally fabricated but appearing real as one's only experiential reality at that given moment, just that is the spell of karmic tendency. That activity that is (experienced/seen as) luminous and empty as one's only experiential reality at that given moment is the wisdom.
I remember when Ciaran (of Ruthless Truth) saw the real fiction of self (a process of creative imagination brought into real life, a real creation based on an imaginary character) he wrote that it was a "zen on drugs" moment. Yeah, I can see why he said that!
Thusness commented, "Very good, so the dreams in dreams (http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/buddha-dharma-dream-in-dream.html). Otherwise you are seeing clarity as empty and tendencies as inherent... hiding somewhere."
&
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2012/06/emancipation-of-suchness.html
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2012/06/buddha-dharma-dream-in-dream.html
Mettha
instead of analyzing "what you are 'doing'" analyze what you 'feel'
if you meditate with closed eyes then you 'feel' through ear (sound), body (touch) or mind (thought)
you can do this analysis when you eat (taste), when you (smell) something through nose and (see) something through eyes
take one at a time at the beginning
and
try to see where are the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element within the ear, sound, eye, form, etc.
analyse one at a time and then ......
no one has to tell you, you will know what you have to do
happy and fruitful meditation !
I liked you post @anatman. The experiences seemed fun. My meditation I mostly just relax though I have had some interesting thoughts they soon dissolve with no trace.
If you want to catch the fabrications in action, watch for how you're shaping your breath, the things you're telling yourself, feelings of pleasure/pain/neutrality, and the labels you're applying to things. Those are the behaviours which come under category of "fabrication."
hey, wait a minute there are echoes of a past life here - wheres my cd collection; got it - time to chill I think, I am falling in love with this teaching on interdependent co-arising dharma:
@upekka, now I'm a little more relaxed I sense your instruction is sound. What happens if it bears too much fruit, would you like some in return?
Rooting out ignorance is bloody tough though isn't it? However, I shall endeavour to meditate on this again tomorrow morning!
I love buddhism and buddhist's - 'they're so fluffy'! Oops perhaps I am reverting back to my life as a past avatar... Am I in the pure land; sure feels like it at the moment, even though the rest of the world is suffering. Damn thats grounding, I'm supposed to be doing this for their benefit as well. Cushion calls and the bowl sings.
Mettha
Based on your OP, it sounds to me like you might be getting too conceptual with your meditation. IOW, you're thinking too much, over-analysing what's going on.
Keep it simple. Let go an return to your breath.
so
what i would do is i try my best to get them by my own effort looking at the rate you are working, it seems you are very near at 'plucking' the first fruit
(i am not quite sure about this, because even one with the Right View (first fruit) can not be mindful all the time )
however
you have to think about 'four types of speech' and see whether you are involve in them
if so that will make rooting out ignorance is tough or your reaching up for the 'fruits' is difficult
(may i ask how long have you been reading/listening Buddha's Teaching and doing meditation- just for the curiosity, no need to answer)
Yes, the created and uncreated. For me this is reminiscent of that verse from the Heart Sutra:
"All things are the primal void, which is not born or destroyed, nor is it stained or pure, nor does it wax or wane"
I started meditation about 20 years ago, went at it like a bull in a china shop, read about and practiced Zen and Dzogchen, conceptualised everything, craved the ultimate, and after the first year became a little deflated, as one would expect as all I was doing was watching and waiting for something, that didn't happen. I thought I understood it but knew I didn't, but knew there was something out there that could be obtained, and that was wisdom. I just lacked it completely. As a medical professional I have more letters after my name than in it, but that university education just provided me with medical knowledge, so I used it, and I helped a lot of people with it.
I practiced mainly with a Tibetan sangha mostly. Whilst I enjoyed it I thought it was just a bit too ritualistic for me, although with developing insight it's growing on me again. Grew up married had kids, life crises brought me back to the cushion, but my main practices were mainly mediation in action, no time to sit. Which grew my mindfulness slowly, and my mind gradually became calmer.
However, a year and a half ago my wife became really ill, and was in hospital for 3 weeks and took 3 months before she could stand for more than half a day, I subsequently had to take a break from work because she couldn't do anything for herself, and it became apparent the childcare we had was failing, so I took on that role as well. I hadn't realised how bad the home environment was and neither did my wife (as we were both working all the hours we could to provide for our children) until this life-event brought it to my attention. I was broken and needed fixing.
Anyway whilst my wife was in hospital which wasn't far from the meditation centre I had started in all those years ago, I went and sat by myself in the alter room, and then during those 3 weeks I started reciting healing mantra for my wife, me and my family, and then started visualising and offering it to everyone who was suffering, and then the great compassion came, and I wept. I realised 2 things. First my dharma gate was the gate of tears, second I was on the path of no path.
Then I started to practice with that view in mind.
Slowly, I started becoming more mindful of everything I did, and how I was affecting everyone around me, I was noticing my bad habits, and started trying to rid myself of them. But something was missing still. I reflected on the triple jewel and whilst there was the buddha and the dharma I had no sangha outside my family. There is no meditation centre I can get to easily where I live. So to help me I joined new buddhist, a virtual sangha, I am coming to know and love all the people in it and, and sharing my experiences, I hopefully contribute to others understanding and misunderstandings. I am learning to be open and learning right understanding and right speech, and am only now starting to develop my wisdom mind. Thanks guys!
I know the I know the path of no path bears no fruit, but that is the path I have chosen. However, the difficulty I have is knowing whether I am on the right side of the river. So I try to navigate with what I have, and when I can see the equipment may be faulty, I ask this group of engineers to take a look under the bonnet, to see if they can help me fix it. Some of them are really quite good, and I use the knowledge I gain from watching them fix my equipment, to try and fix others.
@Spinynorman suggested Tonglen to someone this morning. I have not practiced that for some time perhaps, this is something I should explore a bit more. What do you think?
The problem with a virtual sangha is you can't give someone a hug when they need it.
Thanks @pegembara, very useful.
So you can see my raft's equipment is being upgraded bit by bit.
The reality is that I am mindful of emptiness, but just keep clinging and attached to it. It's just that my mindfulness is not ever-present
Mettha
We laggers need all the help we can get.
Tonglen is an advanced practice. Ideal for beginners and everyone up to advanced, therefore ideal (not all advanced practices are so accommodating).
In developing wisdom mind you have to hear with the other persons ear. Not what they want to hear but what is just within their potential. However try not to get a reputation for being wise otherwise your juggling days are over . . .
Wisdom as with most 'gifts of practice' does not come from theoretical dharma. As you know the Tibetan sangha have two often used symbols: vajra and and bell.
The bell symbolizes compassion, a good heart and vajra wisdom or wisdom and skilfull means or . . .
These must be balanced.
My bell which I found in a junk shop when I needed it, I gave away to a trainee monk. The replacement is a little silver Hindu tinkler and my vajra is an athame letter opener with a skull on it.
Dharma toys are good. Especially when we invest them with power and meaning. Sometimes we can just visualize them or make them.
i try to be with 'seeing', 'hearing', 'feeling' and 'thought' without clinging to perceptions that bring with them
hard but it is not that impossible
i am convinced what i need is Effort to continue this
i noticed if i fail and cling to perception it is inevitable that fabrication (volitional activities) arises and passes away
so there is no Doubt
this is the Path
so we have an expectation of say the experience of interdependence or our enlightenment experience and that it will bring a sort of happiness.
so with that is focusing on an image of happiness as the effect of the cause, which is you realizing every instant to be the full exertion of interdependence.
the problem with this is that you're pretty much cutting yourself off from everything else.
and its a pretty common mistake.
we generally use spirituality as a means to what we desire and its pretty innocent. we all want things. happiness, peace of mind, stress relief, love, meditative experiences, and the big old enlightenment experience.
but in my opinion its exactly that whole set up of expectations, which brings the whole process to co-opt itself and turn this whole thing into a suffering mess.
in a very real sense we are indra's net. each moment is the universe giving its best, fresh and unique expression and then gone. This one movement, where individuality and interdependence flourish is the status quo. Not as an idea, but as a lived experiential reality.
And in that there is the whole vision of reality. Which you posted as the wheel of samasara picture. There is the crippling sadness, depression, fear, anger, aloneness, paranoia, greed, love, joy, compassion, equanimity, desire, peace, etc.
Thoughts about this and that. Right and wrong. Left and right.
All of it, I mean all of it is the interdependence of life. and truly we cannot segregate anything, except in the mode of conceptual thinking that we are so accustomed to.
In a very real sense we can stop and start to see the world free from our expectations and concepts. We can learn to feel and experience the world directly with what we have in front of us. It could be pain or love or anything. And out of that arises an action from non-division. And that whole process of the activity of interdependence.
This is just my opinion of course. And more thoughts to communicate that which cannot be communicated.
Hope this reaches you.
I see what you are saying.
Mettha
spot on
Ignorance of ignorance begets ignorance. Et voila, we are back where we started.