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Divorce and separation among friends and colleagues - how can I be of help?

anatamananataman Who needs a title?Where am I? Veteran
Divorce, like death and losing your job is right up there in the list of lives stressful events. Over the last couple of years my wife and I have seen a significant number of our friends and colleagues go through divorce or separation, sadly the children (in all but one case) are innocent bystanders and being collaterally damaged. Some of these break ups we saw coming, it was just a matter of time, others were a bit of a shock. We had recognized in some instances that there was an abusive relationship, although the abused immersed in the relationship seemed oblivious to it until it was too late.

We see some more coming up on the horizon. It seems the woman in all cases are taking responsibility for the children, even though they are the main breadwinners in some cases.

Any suggestions as to how best I can help our friends/colleagues going through these life events other than being there as a shoulder to cry on or a sounding board. Unfortunately as a male in a stable relationship I feel like the proverbial rabbit staring into the headlights, particularly as it seems the men are pretty much the problem, except in one case.

I realize a number if members of this forum have been through separation, sometimes more than once, so asm keen to hear what people did for you to help get you through it and how much you appreciated it.

Mettha

Comments

  • jaejae Veteran
    My father gave me a bit of good advice...

    'no matter who you are with there will always be challenges... just different ones'

    I left my husband and am now in a new relationship, he was right, the only difference is that my kids have lost their 'family unit' with hindsight I wish I had worked harder at communication and trying to 'work it out'. Putting up with the shit hoping we could have grown up/worked through it would have saved my kids a lot of unnecessary heartache.

    So my advice to anyone going through divorce/separation is this ... try your bloody hardest to resolve the problems, get counseling, write each other letters of true feelings, get help, get help, get help .....before you make that decision.

    Before anyone rants I'm not talking about couples in abusive relationships.
    anatamanTosh
  • One thing I learned is that if you are going to support a friend going through a tough breakup, it's best to acknowledge their hostile feelings toward their spouse without offering much of a negative opinion of the person or defending them.
    If you agree with the friend or encourage their feeling that the ex is an asshole, it might make a reconciliation more difficult, and spoil friendship with either or both of the people.
    If the ex is abusive the gloves come off, of course.
    Sometimes all there is to say is that you're sorry that your friends are hurting.
    Men can be jerks for sure. But women can be impossible too. Particularly in their forties when they are ready for some changes, right about the time that men are ready for things to stay the same.
    anatamanVastmindcvalue
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    edited February 2014
    That is very sound advice @robot. I can see there is very thin line to being helpful and making things worse.

    Funny you mention the forties, thats pretty much the age bracket I'm talking about...
  • jaejae Veteran
    @anataman @robot... Oi you two pack in the 'change of life' comments... you are lucky I don't know where you live ;)
    anatamanrobotDharmaMcBum
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    You seem a little flushed @jae :D
    robotjaeToshDharmaMcBum
  • jae said:

    @anataman @robot... Oi you two pack in the 'change of life' comments... you are lucky I don't know where you live ;)

    Actually I wasn't thinking about menopause, but that time when women have started to have their fill of raising kids and being housewives and want more out of life, and men want to retire to the couch.
    Vastmindcvalue
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    My advice is to simply leave them alone. Getting involved, even if you mean to help, will probably cause more problems than it will solve.
    anatamanDharmaMcBum
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    I think you may well be right @Chaz I suppose that is the middle way, walking between them and not siding with either. It just tugs at the heart strings when you want to help people you know so well get over what can be a very messy experience.
  • anataman said:


    Any suggestions as to how best I can help our friends/colleagues going through these life events other than being there as a shoulder to cry on or a sounding board.

    That's pretty much it, you can't solve people's problems for them.
    Perhaps try to be an open, unbiased resource and let your friends/colleagues pick'n'mix.
    anatamanVastmind
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    As a person who formerly worked in counselling, I found a predominant importance was to remain neutral. When people you know, people in your social circle approach you with their issues, the one thing they want - subconsciously or not - is for you to take their side.
    It's easy to fall into the ready and open trap of instantly believing everything they're telling you, but never forget, whatever the issue, there are always, but always, two sides.
    Unless they're sitting in front of you with a busted nose/black eye, (in which case, physical violence is an immediate side-taker!) you have to be careful to remain neutral, at least until you've heard both sides.
    Even then, you have to be cautious about the extent of your personal involvement.
    Furthermore, you need to be proactive in helping people to use their head, if important issues need addressing. They cannot use emotion to make decisions. When it comes to practical matters , head HAS to over-rule heart.
    anatamanVastmindZero
  • jaejae Veteran
    @robot.....after my kids are raised I'm sure I will want to retire to the sofa or possibly a darkened room ;)
    Bunksrobot
  • The die was cast long before you showed up, there isn't much concrete relief now.

    'I'll love you till the ocean
    Is folded and hung up to dry
    And the seven stars go squawking
    Like geese about the sky.

    'The years shall run like rabbits,
    For in my arms I hold
    The Flower of the Ages,
    And the first love of the world.'

    But all the clocks in the city
    Began to whirr and chime:
    'O let not Time deceive you,
    You cannot conquer Time.

    'In the burrows of the Nightmare
    Where Justice naked is,
    Time watches from the shadow
    And coughs when you would kiss.

    'In headaches and in worry
    Vaguely life leaks away,
    And Time will have his fancy
    To-morrow or to-day.

    'Into many a green valley
    Drifts the appalling snow;
    Time breaks the threaded dances
    And the diver's brilliant bow.

    'O plunge your hands in water,
    Plunge them in up to the wrist;
    Stare, stare in the basin
    And wonder what you've missed.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited February 2014
    A long term couple that we are close to just separated after many years of marriage.
    They appeared to be reasonably happy together (no kids) and it was quite the surprise to us.
    It had my partner and I question ourselves about our own relationship to see if we knew anything more about our own setup than we did of theirs. It allowed us to ask questions of each other that we probably would have otherwise glossed over.
    As for how to help them...I think it is the same as how you help anyone?
    What is empathy, sympathy, tenderness, compassion but ones ability to be as present as possible with what ever is arising.

    I have said before..... that the secret of a good partnership is where both participants first and foremost aim at helping the other be the best success that they can be.
    It occurs to me now that this applies just as much to everyone we know..
    jaeanataman
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    anataman said:

    I think you may well be right @Chaz I suppose that is the middle way, walking between them and not siding with either. It just tugs at the heart strings when you want to help people you know so well get over what can be a very messy experience.

    I've lost good frinds over divorces, both due to involvement and noninvolvement...when I took a side or no side. I've seen it many time with others as well. Divorce ruins people and it's wise to distance yourself until things work themselves out and that can and often will take years.

    anataman
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Just my opinion. Relationships are between 2 people. It should be kept that way. You can have a relationship with the husband. Then you have a relationship with the wife. They have a relationship with each other. Relationships can only be between 2 people. Trying to put a 3rd person, good intentions or not, into a relationship makes things impossible. Sometimes, people need to struggle with their challenges and we can't help them. Supporting them means listening without offering advice, and sometimes even if they ask for advice, it is being smart enough to know what you shouldn't say.

    it can be very hard to be placed into another person's relationship problems. They really need to be talking to their spouse, and a counselor. Not someone who brings their own hangups and experiences from their failed (and successful) relationships into the mix.

    My husband and I are good friends with another married couple. They ran into a relationship problem not long ago, and while I am better friends with the wife than the husband, I see him more often. When he was worried, he sent me like 100 text messages because he needed to talk to someone. I couldn't stop him from talking. But I didn't respond with advice. I just let him talk and I told him I hope he and her could get together when things calmed down to talk things through. There was no way to offer advice to him without condemning her actions (which I knew of only based on his perceptions).

    So, take care of your relationship with each person, using *great care* in how you choose to respond when they are talking about their spouse. Practice compassionate listening. It might not feel like helping much, but when relationships are between 2 people, we cannot help them anyhow. We only turn into a someone they use to avoid talking to their spouse or a qualified counselor. Then what happens is the friend (you) almost always feels obligated to validate the feelings of the person they are talking to, and that person then feels emboldened in their stance which just makes open communication between the couple even more difficult.

    You cannot stop them from talking to you. You can only control what you say, and sometimes, it is ok to say "I'm really not comfortable talking about your relationship." Thinking we need to jump in and help because a friend is having a relationship problem is often, I think, our ego talking. Our wanting to use our relationship expertise on them. We can't begin to think that we know what is best for their relationship based on our own relationships.

    Just good to remember that just because someone wants to talk, doesn't mean they want, or need your advice. They want validation and without knowing all the nuances of their relationship, it might not be best to give them that validation if their perceptions are incorrect.

    Sorry so long...LOL. I need to work on saying what I need to say in fewer words.
    anataman
  • Being an outsider, we are more clearheaded therefore, hopefully we can give a few competent advises in term of finance, legal, health, children in case of a breakup (if we have any expertise at all on these fields). A discussion on these matters will also offer some distractions.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    Thanks @karasti and everyone else, I think there is a lot of wisdom in this thread, and I shall have to remind myself and the wife to not take sides, remain good listeners and be a soft kleenex shoulder to cry on. And to only take sides when it starts getting abusive!

    Mettha
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    @cvalue as representatives of the legal and medical professions that is why my wife and I are often approached by our friends - it makes life a little more challenging!
    cvalue
  • It's interesting reading this thread due to the responses that do not mention the children.

    If the actions or spoken word are of detriment to the children are we right to stand by and offer no advice, to not point out what damage it is causing the children.

    Whilst I agree that if it is a childless couple then no side should be chosen and a listening ear offered but in the event of there being children by offering insight that as third party as to what we can see is imperative to the child/children.

    I am divorced with 3 daughters, 1 of whom I have had no contact with for 4 years because of lies she was told. And I wish so much someone could have said at the time not only to my ex wife but to myself....STOP, take a step back and look at what is happening, look at the bigger picture.



    federicaanatamanjaeDharmaMcBum
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    Thank you @Alpina for your response.

    This has exposed the 'comfort zone' I was analyzing I am sorry to hear of your circumstances. But an illustration can be illuminating.

    Mettha
  • @anataman no need for sorry. We live and learn from life and I guess that's kind of why I'm on here.
    anataman
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2014
    Alpina said:


    I am divorced with 3 daughters, 1 of whom I have had no contact with for 4 years....

    I sympathise.
    When I divorced, my daughters also didn't speak to me for many years.
    It took a while to re-kindle relationships.
    I still feel as if things are not 100% between my eldest and me, rather like a jigsaw with a couple of bits missing (maybe that's just my impression...left-over "guilt"...) but things are good between us.... she now has a young child of her own, and having been in a relationship herself for 10 years or so is more able to see the ups and downs her parents experienced.
    My youngest and I 'speak' regularly on FB, but I haven't actually physically seen her in 8 years. We seem to be ok, and many things remain 'unspoken' between us, but it is what it is.

    By the way, in case it wasn't obvious (as your forum name is 'in the feminine') I'm the mother.
    The girls lived with their dad for a long while after we split.

  • In a way it isn't 100% as things have changed for everyone. "Normality" is no longer functioning, what everyone involved is experiencing is changing everything.

    I am the father. I was left with my daughters and then after the mum had revisited her youth she decided to be a mum again then it all changed. I am trying to regain contact with my eldest but this has taken great help from my partner who has helped open my eyes and helped me to look at myself and I wish I had had this from the very beginning.

    One thing I learnt was that sometimes things are best left unspoken. Document everything, keep a diary then one day the child will ask questions, then at that point it is the correct time for things to be spoken and discussed in the correct way.

    good luck, as with myself I hope that the bridges are repaired with time.

    anataman
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    edited February 2014
    1 of 2 things will usually happen when you tell someone else what they are doing to their own children.
    1-they already know the effect that they are having on the kids and either they do it anyways, or they are being cautious of it or
    2-they won't take kindly to being told how to manage their children.

    They might be willing to drag their spouse through the mud but questioning ones parenting or pointing out faults in someone else's parenting is unlikely to have any positive results whatsoever.

    If one wants to ask how the children are doing through a divorce/separation, that is one thing. But to point out "Hey, you are acting like a jerkface in front of your kids." it's unlikely to be taken as a kind bit of advice. Most people are very, very defensive when it comes to their parenting.

    My parents divorced when I was 15. They had been married 18 years. It was the best thing they ever did. i was SO relieved when they divorced because it was clear they were miserable together and as a result so was our family. When they split, even though things were difficult for them both for several years it was the best thing they could have done. Now they are both happy and healthy, us "kids" have great relationships with them, and their lives went in wonderful directions. Honestly, my mom STILL questions me, insisting their divorce had some horrible effect on me. It didn't. It was needed desperately. My parents acted far worse towards each other when they were married than when they were divorcing. Now they spend time together at their grandkid's various school events, and they get along quite well. Because they are loved and supported for who they are in their new lives. (well not new but compared to being married to each other). Divorce isn't always bad.
    anataman
  • I think that it is fantastic that you can view the divorce like that I really do.

    I don't view it as questioning the parenting and as with everything their is always a good way of trying to put an opinion across for instance, my partner has the ability to look at things from a 3rd party and not my partner and she will tell me and has helped me to see my actions were wrong.

    keeping within the boundaries of the main question and how I think we can help or indeed should help a quick example..

    My ex wife has had a daughter with the other man..now I had a view that when my daughters talked about their mum and new sister that if I said, " I do not need to know" or "I don't want to know" then I am not being derogatory against their mum so that is OK...until my partner pointed out that I was, in fact telling them that their mum and sister were irrelevant or didn't mater. And she was right.

    I now have regular chats with them and include her sister, when we talk on Skype they hold their sister and I talk and wave with her and I am happy.

    That's my point and I guess that it does depend on the parents and whether they are willing to listen and learn and take on views from others.
    Bunks
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    In that case, yes, I think there are certainly times and situations where the right person can say the right thing. One just needs to be pretty careful about how they tread and what their position is and how well they know the people and their kids and their interactions and stuff.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    Thanks for sharing these insights. I can see for some people divorce may actually be a blessing in disguise, and when I look at the separations that are going on in our friends/colleagues lives it is probably for the good.

    The three children in one divorce are being told this weekend that the parents are separating. They are quite young, much younger than I was when my parents went through an ugly divorce but I remember how upset I was. The mum is very much in control so I am sure it will be managed as well as it can be.

    Mettha
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    One final thing: Please note that even if you (generic, not specific) recommend people get counselling, it's neither designed nor intended to necessarily keep people together... Counselling in a nutshell, merely gives people 'a safe place to vent'... but it's possible the Counsellor will assist in showing the couple the most effective way to proceed. Even if it entails separation.
    Yik_Yis_Yii
  • @anataman I certainly hope so but it will take both parents to be in equal control for there to be no damage to the children.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    The husband was more in control of the Porsche and his golf clubs @Alpina

    Sorry, shouldn't be taking sides.
  • @anataman and that sounds the warning bell to me.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    I agree @Alpina, I will walk the dog and look at the new growth of spring sprouting up around me rather than reflect on dead foliage.

    Mettha
  • DharmaMcBumDharmaMcBum Spacebus Wheelman York, UK Veteran
    @anatman I found the best help from others I got during my seperation and divorce was that which entailed not being involved but carrying on "life as normal". Going out for a beer, stopping by for a brew and a chew of the proverbial fat (about non divorce things) was what I appreciated most during and more so afterwards. Anyway, that's my opinion of it based on my experience.
    anatamancvalueChaz
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