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Did the Buddha mean it ?
Citta
Veteran
" He beat me, he abused me, he robbed me, he defeated me.
For those who hold on to such thoughts hatred never ends.
He beat me , he abused me, he robbed me, he defeated me.
For those who do not hold such thoughts hatred ends.
Hatred does not cease by hatred, Hatred only ends by love "
Dhammapada The Twin Verses
Does it apply all the time...or not in our case ?
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Comments
Yes. Einstein had another way of intimaditing this thought: He said something like, "You can never solve a problem on the level of which the problem was created." Ghandi said something like this, too.
Fighting fire with fire just creates more fire, right?
Isuppose all the time but can we live up to it.
I find that my mind can always come up with exceptions ...but I know really that's b.s.
Why should a basic, honest and tried-and-tested truth NOT apply all the time, AND in our case....?
Excuse me, but what is the foundation of your question?
Is there something you'd like to share..?
I think I might have answered that as you were posting yours federica.
I can read those words and nod my head..then ten minutes or a week or a month later think 'yes but I have a right to feel resentful on this occasion '..and I haven't of course.
Maybe its just me.
Yes, it's definitely just you.
nobody else.
I'm sure no-one else ever feels this teaching is inapplicable.....
The Buddha (in my personal opinion) spoke nothing but words of wisdom in his teachings.
They're simple to digest, for a large part.
They're difficult as billy-hell to implement.
Simple things often are.....
I obviously have expressed myself badly...I don't doubt for a moment the fundamental truth of the words..I am talking about the ability of my slippery mind to look for apparent exceptions...in my case.
Well, when you definitely find one - be sure to let us know.....
I know there are none. I know actually that all that happens is a result of conditions I have been complicit in creating.
shall I close the thread, then.....?
They are the Buddhist counterpart to turning the other cheek, giving your cloak as well as your tunic, praying for those who curse you, loving your enemy. Often easier said than done.
Well done, @Citta. Power is a network of compliance and illusions. Its one of those concepts thats sooooooooooo difficult to mentally disarm. Its the big one.
Turning the other cheek is actually a gesture of defiance.
See this 'slide-show'.
This is also interesting....
Hmmmm... I thought turning the other cheek was to offer your attacker the other side of your face to slap, as they may not have felt satisfied with their initial slap, so to speak. Its born of the notion that you can harm my body but not my mind if love is the champion of my mind.. I guess we went to different cheek-turning acadamies as youths...
Not necessarily. I'm of the opinion, as an ex-Catholic, that the academies were probably pretty similar. I certainly held the same view as you did.
However, more recent, in-depth and greater historic research into information gleaned from the Bible has exposed cultural practices hitherto unknown.
interesting you should write this Citta, I've been meditating on the passage for some time now to help me stop feeling very angry and yes, hateful, with someone whose actions have made life difficult for me in the past few years. I let my feelings for her consume me for too long and it certainly affected my health and wellbeing, but with metta meditation and plenty of time on the cushion, I have been able to let go of these feelings over time. Sadly she suffered a massive heart attack and stroke just a few weeks ago and her prognosis is not very good. She is only young. Its hard to express it well, but I am grateful that I was past my resentment and anger at her when it happened. the old Buddha knew what he was talking about with these verses... she was my 'exception' for quite a while and I all I did was harm myself with the anger
Yeah but i dont think it contradicts what scholars are trying to assert, because, after all, love is the empowering tool being employed. If anything it reinforces the idea that love is your primary weapon against hate... <---- Though that is a poor way of describing it, i guess.
_/_
Ive been there @jayne..or similar.
Hmm... interesting way to look at it.
Just because we know something to be true doesn't mean we suddenly give up a lifetime, or many lifetimes of habitual patterns on the spot. I certainly find the same things to be true. I believe in the truth of those lines. But there are situations it's hard to apply to. I wouldn't say I hate people, but there are groups of people I have a really hard time with (for example, Westboro Church), and individual people in my daily life as well. I still practice metta and tonglen meditations, and while I'm certainly not at the point of loving them fully and openly, my hatred or aversion to them has decreased. I wish I could simply be at the point where I can feel as strongly about everyone as I do about my children, but I'm not there and I try not to be hard on myself about it. It's a lot of work. But despite my wish that I could just arrive to the right state of mind, I enjoy the work, the process.
The Buddha's words are a challenge...to me at least.
Hate bad, love good.
I humbly respect that no one answer @Nevermind tonight Metta
What you 'humbly respect' and what others do, may be two different things entirely.
Your reactions are your own to look to.
How everyone else reacts, is up to them.
I only ask one thing, that for once @nevermind try to input.
That Dhammapada passage stuck in my mind recently. It's a hard teaching to grasp, but one entry point can be your own suffering. There is a Methodist church nearby that always has thought-provoking or humorous phrases displayed on its letterboard. Last week it was "Forgiveness is our deepest need, and God's greatest gift."
Although I've been essentially atheistic for years now, I've always been interesting in the way in which the idea of God can serve as a proxy by which people can access spiritual insights. Doing so has helped me find much connection and common ground with people from theistic traditions. Many Buddhists use the Buddha or their own teachers as a reminder that awakened existence is a possibility for everyone. Here, God serves as the embodiment of unconditional forgiveness: the possibility of having a heart so vast that it can encompass anyone, even the most violent or hurtful among us. But, like the Lord's Prayer, the Methodist quote also points the focus back on oneself: just as we crave absolution our own sinful actions (the Buddhist parallel being unskillful karma), we are asked to absolve those who do harm against us.
The Buddha did this as well: he used the self as the starting point for understanding the necessity for cultivating a mind devoid of hatred. In the Mallikaa Sutta, he says, "Though in thought we range throughout the world, We'll nowhere find a thing more dear than self. So, since others hold the self so dear, He who loves himself should injure none." We refrain from violence -- both mental and physical (as the Buddha considered intention karma as well) -- because we understand the need for mercy. And going into newer traditions, tonglen uses one's own suffering as the starting point for understanding the web of samsara in which all beings are embedded, and thus, serving as the fuel for true compassion: we understand that other people's suffering (which sometimes leads them to act in hurtful ways) is the same world-suffering we've experienced in our own lives. It's all karma being passed around.
Inputting...
Harboring hatred is not good, I'm sure, but I don't agree that love is the only thing that can end it. That strikes me as an extreme view, and as Buddhists we know that extreme views are evil. Not that we hate evil, because that would be bad too. We can view hate as... like mean neighbor or something. Someone you don't want hanging around for too long, cuz they're such a drag and make you feel shitty. You don't need to love your mean neighbor to get them to go home, in fact they might stay longer if tried to love them. Just them them that you have an appointment. Or may say that you're not feeling well and need to take a nap. But whatever you do don't lie, because that would be bad too.
It's certainly not just you. There's no kind of indignation like righteous indignation. However, while I wouldn't dispute you, me or anyone having the right to feel resentful under the right circumstances - we also have the right to NOT feel resentful under those same circumstances. I try to always choose the one that will feel better...with mixed results.
To have no enemies, make them your friends or at the very least view them not as enemies but as victims of greed, hatred and delusion. Don't be a victim yourself.
Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it's wrong.