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Mindfulness advice & hopefully some answers for anyone who's interested.
@Hamsaka said:
Am I missing out on some deeper wisdom when I watch people argue about words and just feel bored?
Personally I like a bit of pedantry since with language the devil is in the detail.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited June 2014
My own personal interpretation (disclaimer, here; I am pig-ignorant on many things and Pali terminology is one of them) is that -
Mindfulness is paying attention to every step-by-step detail;
Awareness is being lucid, but being generally attentive, not specifically attentive... in other words, taking in the general panoramic scenery, without commentary, rather than being conscious of every pace along the walk....
In my humble opinion we can't be aware of being mindful, but we are aware of doing when we're being mindful..When we're totally absorbed/lost in doing something we love, & an hour goes by in what seems like no time at all..That was us just being truly mindful, but we can't realize it mentally while we're absorbed in it..All we could say afterwards & it would be our ego (our mind) saying it to our real "i", is "i" or rather because our mind is saying it to our real "i" it should say "you", was just mindful for say an hour & you forgot about me (our ego minds identity) by referencing a clock with our mind afterwards..So to me being in a true mindful state is to be only using our senses, & with no thoughts at all whatsoever at the time..So when eventually you get in a state of mindfulness you know you are looking, but not the person you think you are because you can't/won't be thinking at the time, & yet you do know that "your" looking..When totally absorbed in doing something we love we never reference ourselves as our ego or time itself, because we're so totally absorbed in the present moment..Then the past present & future moment become the same moment as our senses can't record time, & you don't have to move your body as it just moves for you on instinct..It's almost like you cut the middle man out which is our body or our ego, & your so busy doing that you forget your ego minds identity of the self..I learn't too much about the present moment before i did the practice, & that slowed me down probably by months..I know for a 100% fact though that it's "all" practice, maybe 10% reading & 90% practice..I mean i read it from all angles before i realized, that reading is good to get the gist of the practice, but then it's all practice from then on..Iv'e still got a loooooong way to go, & that's just my honest take from my perspective..BUT!lol..I will say that meditating on our sense perceptions rather than using our mind, is better than any other form of meditating....Great chatting to yer guys.
I'd just like to mention that i learn't a lot of that stuff obviously from Buddhism, but also from Bruce Lee vids..He did the training, & was able to fight in the "now" without thinking..That's why he was so fast, & unbeatable..A great man, & philosopher.
@SpinyNorman. I think mindfulness sounds like hypervigilance. And that is why she likes 'awareness'. People think 'mindfulness' means that you are keeping an object of meditation which is not the case.
Well i had to look hypervigilance up on wikipedia!lol...Anyway I'd say it sounds very similar, but it's not the same as hypervigilance, because that's more like a state of awareness or being ready of an attack from all angles..Like the Jap warrior in the long grass waiting for an attack that could come from any angle, he'd be very alert to his senses but he would be monitoring them..Mindfulness is similar but there isn't a state of alertness of senses, because the mind isn't there to sense them or monitoring or being ready..Just a complete state of calmness & looking or hearing etc..Like the time you probably dozed off on the beach as a young kid, & it seemed like you we're absorbed by the sounds..You can't put your finger on it, but it sounded different until you realized.
Hey jeffrey i know you get the gist, but if you can find a way to define it in words your'l become a very rich man indeed!..I'll go 50/50 on it with yer!lol
Awareness, to me, is an unconscious process, the act of bringing an object into the radar of our senses, and that takes place independently of our will.
Mindfulness has a more directed feel to it. Like @Jeffrey said, there is some vigilance on our part, or at least the conscious will to observe, to be aware of the arising in our consciousness of those objects.
Here is what Bikkhu Bodhi says about mindfulness: "What brings the field of experience into focus and makes it accessible to insight is a mental faculty called in Pali 'sati,' usually translated as 'mindfulness.' Mindfulness is presence of mind, attentiveness or awareness. Yet the kind of awareness involved in mindfulness differs profoundly from the kind of awareness at work in our usual mode of consciousness. All consciousness involves awareness in the sense of a knowing or experiencing of an object. But with the practice of mindfulness awareness is applied at a special pitch. The mind is deliberately kept at the level of bare attention, a detached observation of what is happening within us and around us in the present moment. In the practice of right mindfulness the mind is trained to remain in the present, open, quiet, and alert, contemplating the present event. All judgements and interpretations have to be suspended, or if they occur, just registered and dropped. The task is simply to note whatever comes up just as it is occurring, riding the changes of events in the way a surfer rides the waves on the sea. The whole process is a way of coming back into the present, of standing in the here and now without slipping away, without getting swept away by the tides of distracting thoughts.
It might be assumed that we are always aware of the present, but this is a mirage. Only seldom do we become aware of the present in the precise way required by the practice of mindfulness."
David Brazier adds a different take on sati as meaning 'stop:' "Mindfulness training means to keep creating stops in which one stands aside from one's process and has a look to see what is happening."
The nuances between the words describing our meditative explorations can sound like a discussion on fine wines, where I sometimes wonder how much of folks actual ability to discern one from the other is label dependent.
Hey thanks dharmamom it is exactly how you put it, & so in future I'll say that mindfulness is the practice that can/might lead to pure awareness..I do realize that if one was to sit there looking at an object, & trying to hold or maintain mindfulness with any effort pure awareness won't be achieved..However if a person was sitting there mindfully looking, & putting no effort whatsoever into it then he/she would probably experience pure awareness..I had 2 experiences of pure awareness one night whilst meditating, & it was around 3/4 months ago..That was with my eyes closed & laid down in the dark, but i did know I'd become one with everything....That was all i did know at the time, but it wasn't a scary experience at all..I haven't as yet experienced it whilst mindfully meditating with my eyes open, but i have had an obe experience as well..It's like i get a clue here, & a sign or snippet there!lol.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@SpinyNorman said:
Personally I like a bit of pedantry since with language the devil is in the detail.
Yes, it can be
What I am perceiving is people arguing with each other over subjective definition and meaning as if their points of discussion were objective.
It's like two people yelling at each other in different languages. It 'sounded like' he said 'go soak your head in the toilet', but if we took a couple of steps back, the point of contention disappears, I can't find it LOL, and I got bored trying to figure it out. Just wondering if I was the only person with this, you know, trying to improve my objectivity
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
I really didn't want to say the arguments sound a little like "my woo woo is bigger than your woo woo AND it is more RIGHT than yours to boot" but I will
Yeah I wish I knew more about what my Lama was saying. She definitely teaches that it is impossible to focus permanently. That is to say there is always diffusion to spaciousness. In meditation we continuously diffuse outward and then continuously remember the method or vigilance. Without mindfulness we wouldn't be able to drift and come back. Tell me, have you had a meditation where you never diffused? I can sense the diffusion even in counting to two inbreath 1 outbreath 2. I still sense diffusion.
Yeah I wish I knew more about what my Lama was saying. She definitely teaches that it is impossible to focus permanently. That is to say there is always diffusion to spaciousness. In meditation we continuously diffuse outward and then continuously remember the method or vigilance. Without mindfulness we wouldn't be able to drift and come back. Tell me, have you had a meditation where you never diffused? I can sense the diffusion even in counting to two inbreath 1 outbreath 2. I still sense diffusion.
A gentler way of viewing it is that without our travels back and forth between diffusion and spaciousness, there would be nothing to call the middle way.
You could view meditation as being more about our relationship with diffusion or spaciousness, than about judging one as a journeys hindrance and the other as it's completion.
@Hamsaka said:
I really didn't want to say the arguments sound a little like "my woo woo is bigger than your woo woo AND it is more RIGHT than yours to boot" but I will
Discussing what is the right word to describe our current understanding can be very useful. So for example our mind can be full of awareness (mindful) but in awareness we do not have to be full of anything. That is why for some awareness is preferred as a label . . .
For many of us such pedantic attention to details is irrelevant to our experience and needs. In a sense we need wooing in a different form . . . :wave: .
@Daveadams said:
I had 2 experiences of pure awareness one night whilst meditating, & it was around 3/4 months ago..
You should get a teacher, who understands, and is qualified to teach Shamatha/Vipassana, to sit with you and so to bear witness to this "pure awareness" the next time it arises.
The truth is, anyone can make that claim. You should be able to offer something more than your say-so, to verify your attainment.
How can a teacher verify you have "attained" pure awareness?
And what classes the teacher as a qualified teacher?
I don't think any teacher is there to verify anything, there is no levelling up in meditation. So if somebody says to me they've had a particular experience. Great! A teacher is there to guide and teach right?
@Daveadams said:
I'd just like to mention that i learn't a lot of that stuff obviously from Buddhism, but also from Bruce Lee vids..He did the training, & was able to fight in the "now" without thinking..That's why he was so fast, & unbeatable..A great man, & philosopher.
m m m
Bruce Lee trained muscle memory, that is partly why he was fast. He was a great mechanic, beaten by not understanding the dangers of over training. Beaten by death and ignorance.
Great man? Philosopher?
Perhaps. Perhaps others see acting slightly differently.
You have come to offer us insight and understanding, is it just possible that your experiences do not have the depth you imagine?
@Daveadams when I meditate I started on meditating on a fixed object like breath. This I believe helps generate concentration to still the mind.
Then working on mindfulness to use that concentration to bring about awareness!
I think you can probably just work on awareness but concentration of the mind has been of massive help to me!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Daveadams said:
Well i had to look hypervigilance up on wikipedia!lol...Anyway I'd say it sounds very similar, but it's not the same as hypervigilance, because that's more like a state of awareness or being ready of an attack from all angles..Like the Jap warrior in the long grass waiting for an attack that could come from any angle, he'd be very alert to his senses but he would be monitoring them
..Mindfulness is similar but there isn't a state of alertness of senses, because the mind isn't there to sense them or monitoring or being ready..Just a complete state of calmness & looking or hearing etc..Like the time you probably dozed off on the beach as a young kid, & it seemed like you we're absorbed by the sounds..You can't put your finger on it, but it sounded different until you realized.
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~ MODERATOR NOTE: ~
Erm... sorry to come to this late in the day, (I do have to sleep, after all...) but @Daveadams, time for a bit of that hypervigilance, I think.
Have you any idea whether we have any Japanese members who might be offended by this terminology?
I'm sure it's not intentional, but it's careless.
In your analogy, the word 'Jap' is totally superfluous; it's utterly unnecessary to be this specific, and can be seen as pejorative.
Watch what you say, ok?
We're multinational here, so it's important to make allowances for that, without exception.
@Hamsaka said:
I really didn't want to say the arguments sound a little like "my woo woo is bigger than your woo woo AND it is more RIGHT than yours to boot" but I will
Yes, the labels are important. For me "mindfulness" sounds like an active function of paying attention, whereas "awareness" sounds a bit vague and passive
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Of course, nobody's Woo-woo is bigger than my Woo-woo....with the possible exception of the forum Gods, Linc and Brian..... .
I do try to watch for things like that...
I don't think it's necessarily a deliberate intention, to better others.
The problem is encouraging one's self to let go of wanting to be right.
That's a hard one, and something I used to struggle with enormously.
Still sometimes, now, but I don't think, as much....
@Earthninja said:
Chaz why does he need to verify anything?
Well, if someone makes merely a claim and then to impress upon others some sort of attainment to reinforce standing, and there is no way to verify that claim, it remains only a claim and therefore useless.
In other words what is a person claiming to have atrtained certain meditative states who actually hasn't?
We have no idea if what the @Daveadams claims is true or not. Prudence would dictate we take the former statnce
How can a teacher verify you have "attained" pure awareness?
And what classes the teacher as a qualified teacher?
There are plenty of ways to determine whether or not a teacher is up-to-snuff. We have discussed that topic, on this forum, to death for years.
I don't think any teacher is there to verify anything, there is no levelling up in meditation. So if somebody says to me they've had a particular experience. Great! A teacher is there to guide and teach right?
In many traditions, it is precicely what the teacher is for. To guide, yes. To teach, certainly. But teachers also evaluates the student. If there is any attainment in a student it is the teacher to see this first.
@Chaz oh ok! I might search one of these threads, I guess I find it incredibly hard to put into words some of the experiences I have had. I guess I'm sceptical a teacher can interpret a beyond words experience and say it had happened or not. When I know it has happened because I'm the one experiencing it! I won't bring up this discussion ! I'll have a read of the old ones! Thanks haha.
As for whether @Daveadams had this attainment or not... I don't think it makes his point stronger or weaker. You could tell me good advice id take it regardless if you can levitate or not.
I do think having a teacher is incredibly useful, that was great advice.
As for whether Daveadams had this attainment or not... I don't think it makes his point stronger or weaker. You could tell me good advice id take it regardless if you can levitate or not.
But this is not advice. It is a claim. Unverfied.
@Daveadams said:
I had 2 experiences of pure awareness one night whilst meditating, & it was around 3/4 months ago..
I have no doubt my own teacher has attained far beyond anything @Daveadams claims for himself, yet has never once made boast about it, even when asked directly. He merely teaches..
Hey folks i apologize about the use of the word Jap when i said jap soldier, & would like to rephrase that as Samarai Warrior..I was very careless, & honestly didn't mean any offence..I'm not trying to make out my woo woo is bigger than any one elses, & all i joined for was to work some stuff out for myself..A lot of the stuff that's happened to me in the last year has been very strange to say the least, & i realized i was already trying to follow the 8 fold path before i heard of it..Also I'd already been working on the five hindrances before i heard of them, but that was all in an attempt at ending my depression & for self improvement..I was only practicing mindfulness + emotions & feelings control..So Iv'e realized fairly recently that Buddhism, & the Buddhas teachings are true, & they we're true before the Buddha discovered them..I read something a long time ago by the Buddha, & apparently he said we're to never take anything he said on blind faith..So I'm not here to challenge Buddhism at all, because it's starting to make a lot of sense to me..I can type something that to a none neutral thinking person might seem like I'm arguing or disagreeing, but that's just how it looks from their own perspective..I did experience on 2 separate occasions in the same night something that sounds very much like pure awareness, & i only heard of pure awareness very recently.. I'm not saying it was but I'm willing to post how it seemed to me, & see if anyone can shed some light on it (I'll try anyway!lol)..I never wanted a teacher because i new after months of too much reading & watching stuff on the subject, that i have to teach myself these things to realize them by only doing, but i will accept guidance from anyone out there..I mean everything Iv'e learned so far has been from utube or the internet or forums, but at the end of the day I'm my own teacher by doing..I haven't seen a good description of pure awareness, but if you show me yours I'll show you mine.
@dharmamom said:
Awareness, to me, is an unconscious process, the act of bringing an object into the radar of our senses, and that takes place independently of our will.
Mindfulness has a more directed feel to it. Like Jeffrey said, there is some vigilance on our part, or at least the conscious will to observe, to be aware of the arising in our consciousness of those objects.
Here is what Bikkhu Bodhi says about mindfulness: "What brings the field of experience into focus and makes it accessible to insight is a mental faculty called in Pali 'sati,' usually translated as 'mindfulness.' Mindfulness is presence of mind, attentiveness or awareness. Yet the kind of awareness involved in mindfulness differs profoundly from the kind of awareness at work in our usual mode of consciousness. All consciousness involves awareness in the sense of a knowing or experiencing of an object. But with the practice of mindfulness awareness is applied at a special pitch. The mind is deliberately kept at the level of bare attention, a detached observation of what is happening within us and around us in the present moment. In the practice of right mindfulness the mind is trained to remain in the present, open, quiet, and alert, contemplating the present event. All judgements and interpretations have to be suspended, or if they occur, just registered and dropped. The task is simply to note whatever comes up just as it is occurring, riding the changes of events in the way a surfer rides the waves on the sea. The whole process is a way of coming back into the present, of standing in the here and now without slipping away, without getting swept away by the tides of distracting thoughts.
It might be assumed that we are always aware of the present, but this is a mirage. Only seldom do we become aware of the present in the precise way required by the practice of mindfulness."
David Brazier adds a different take on sati as meaning 'stop:' "Mindfulness training means to keep creating stops in which one stands aside from one's process and has a look to see what is happening."
good post..I like Dr Braziers take on Mindfulness.
@lobster: I agree that bringing Bruce Lee into this thread is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. But let's not underestimate Bruce Lee as a great teacher in the field of martial arts. He has some fine books by the way, though of course, nothing relevant to this thread.
As to experiences in meditation, @Daveadams, I'm afraid you're not telling us much new. If some sensibilities got piqued by your comments, it's probably because sometimes it sounds as if you had invented the wheel and truth is, many people here are actually quite experienced in meditation and feel it's rather banal to capture particular impressions in words.
One tends to keep these comments to oneself.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Ok, @Daveadams;
It seems to me, at face value, and not knowing you at all, that your devoted and enthusiastic practice is obviously very effervescent and you're eager to transmit that.
Your experiences sound reasonable, but we all have to exercise caution when making claims or labelling something as a 'specific occurrence' when scrutiny and inspection may well expose it as something else - be it more, or less extraordinary.
Recently, a member on another forum claimed they could remember a number of distinct and separate past Lives; after much to-ing and fro-ing, it was established - and the member had to agree - that it could very well simply have been a series of implanted notions; maybe from having read accounts of such occurrences, or reading historical factual books on the history of such a place, and such a time...
And @Chaz is right; in some instances, a Teacher is extremely helpful, supportive and instructive - if only to help to keep your feet firmly on the ground.
Some traditions will tell you it's mandatory; others may advise that the decision is yours, and you may actually find more than one teacher who will guide you; others again will say "Life is your best teacher; if eventually, you find one, good, if not, just Pay Attention for now."
Whichever option you feel suits you best, there is absolutely no doubt that at one point or another - we all need an interface against which to compare notes. A teacher will be necessary.
And - I'm sorry to sound harsh, but - much as Youtube may have much educational and informative material, nothing beats sitting down with an actual someone and saying - "let's talk about this."
The important is to calm yourself, ('you' generically, not 'you' specifically) and still your mind. Keep your feet on the floor, and just practice.
In the end, it's not the destination, it's the journey.
And always, but always, use the ears, in proportion to the mouth.
@Citta said:
good post..I like Dr Braziers take on Mindfulness.
I thought it was original. In the example, Brazier was trying to make a client who was prey to fits of anger become more consciously aware of the physical symptoms as they arose, in order to be better able to nip the fit in the bud.
She claimed that as anger was taking place, she was too busy in her head to notice (probably telling herself all the 'right' things to stoke the fire, I guess). He was teaching her to actually 'stop' and be present in her body, instead.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Daveadams said: .I read something a long time ago by the Buddha, & apparently he said we're to never take anything he said on blind faith..
Sigh, the Kalama Sutta should come with big warning signs...
Its all in the context.
The Buddha was teaching a community of people..the Kalamas, who were NOT his followers.
They had another teacher. In fact they had several, most of whom contradicted each other.
He was saying don't put your trust in someone because it is the custom of your community..
He was basically saying " I have the real stuff..he doesn't "
Check it out.
It is reported that many of the Kalamas then did become his followers.
So most of the time when people quote second or third hand versions of the Kalama Sutta they draw the exact opposite conclusion to the one that the Buddha was pointing to.
@Earthninja said:
Chaz you have no doubt your own teacher has attained FAR beyond anything Daveadams claims.
You don't even know Daveadams or what your teacher has attained yet you have no doubt.
But I do know my teacher. I've met him, talked with him, eaten with him, he guides my practice and study, I've heard him teach and I even had a drink with him.
I studied the man for years before I commited to him.
He has never made claim to any attainment.
He is the most realized being I've ever encountered.
I don't know @Daveadams from...errrr.....Adam. Because I know nothing about him prudence dictates my skepticism regarding these attainments he speaks of. The fact that he made the claim, and then backpedaled later gives greater ground to my skepticism. In that he has noone to bear witness to his claimed attainment, coupled with the other factors, makes skepticism the only karmically healthy position.
It's a position I take with anyone fitting the same conditons.
@Chaz wow that's great you have such a great teacher, it's really wise that you studied him before you studied from him. May I ask how you got in contact with him? I haven't managed to find a teacher yet.
Hmm maybe I just don't read into deeply with what people write on here. I guess I'm an optimist! I like to keep an open mind but yes healthy skepticism is useful I just don't feel it's my place or another's to judge people.
Have a great day mate!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
It's not people we 'judge' It's their Actions.
And I don't even think, in this case, judging is the correct word. it's a evaluation, a weighing-up, a discernment based on scrutiny, examination and careful consideration.
Anyone who devotes themselves to following a teacher without the above, or simply on hearsay, deserves all they get....
@Earthninja said:
Chaz wow that's great you have such a great teacher, it's really wise that you studied him before you studied from him. May I ask how you got in contact with him?
I had been studying his teaching online for some time. I hooked up with his students over in Boulder. I was able to meet him when he came to teach at Naropa for a month.
Hey folks thanks for all the great comments, & i appreciate all of them the same..Your the first people that I've found, that are even prepared to talk about stuff like this..I would like to say that i never said i attained anything, i just said i experienced something that sounds like pure awareness..I've experienced many very strange things (for want of a better word) in the last year, & i wouldn't actually expect anyone to believe me as their too far fetched..I wouldn't have believed me if i told all this stuff to myself a year ago, so i don't respectfully expect anyone on here to believe me either....I still maintain we can have many guides, but only one teacher..That teacher is ourselves, & so we can't take any thing on blind faith..So the Buddha left us his teachings to follow knowing that if practiced often until they became the practice themselves, their mind would shift back to neutral & logical thinking which is the end of their suffering....So mindfulness & emotions & feelings control practice, has dramatically reduced my suffering & i have shed most of my old desires (money/cars/women/drugs/booze etc), & so also people have to define me by my actions & not my possessions etc..As i went along i hit a neutral zone where i did nothing for months until i realized i was stuck, & i feel if a person only does the mindful stuff without using logical thinking they will also hit the neutral zone emotionally, & is very hard to get out from..Some people have described that as "the death of their ego", when it is actually a trick of their emotional mind..So i then started to apply a lot of logic as to whether i was eating right, & looking after myself which i realized i wasn't..That took a lot of effort to get out of, & i realized it was another trick of my mind at the time..So when my logical neutral thinking mind started becoming stronger than my emotional negative mind, that's when things really started happening for me, & my life has improved ever since....My main reason for being on here is because i want to learn more about mindfulness, & the various ways to practice etc..Then in my spare time try to help people that are being drained by their own depression, which dare i say in most cases of depression their causing themselves by the way their thinking....I can only see it from my perspective & mine might be wrong, but what i did over the last 7/8 months has cured my depression, & i haven't been brainwashed by anything..I don't see the different stages of enlightenment as attaining, i see it all as shedding old beliefs that we're mostly false beliefs..I would much sooner help someone now than not, & i have finally realized that it's helping others that feels the best.
Comments
Personally I like a bit of pedantry since with language the devil is in the detail.
My own personal interpretation (disclaimer, here; I am pig-ignorant on many things and Pali terminology is one of them) is that -
Mindfulness is paying attention to every step-by-step detail;
Awareness is being lucid, but being generally attentive, not specifically attentive... in other words, taking in the general panoramic scenery, without commentary, rather than being conscious of every pace along the walk....
I like defining mindfulness in terms of awareness: resting the mind in the bare awareness of thoughts.
Hindsight to my comment earlier, mindfulness is a correct word to use for sati "if" the mind is "full" of awareness.
In my humble opinion we can't be aware of being mindful, but we are aware of doing when we're being mindful..When we're totally absorbed/lost in doing something we love, & an hour goes by in what seems like no time at all..That was us just being truly mindful, but we can't realize it mentally while we're absorbed in it..All we could say afterwards & it would be our ego (our mind) saying it to our real "i", is "i" or rather because our mind is saying it to our real "i" it should say "you", was just mindful for say an hour & you forgot about me (our ego minds identity) by referencing a clock with our mind afterwards..So to me being in a true mindful state is to be only using our senses, & with no thoughts at all whatsoever at the time..So when eventually you get in a state of mindfulness you know you are looking, but not the person you think you are because you can't/won't be thinking at the time, & yet you do know that "your" looking..When totally absorbed in doing something we love we never reference ourselves as our ego or time itself, because we're so totally absorbed in the present moment..Then the past present & future moment become the same moment as our senses can't record time, & you don't have to move your body as it just moves for you on instinct..It's almost like you cut the middle man out which is our body or our ego, & your so busy doing that you forget your ego minds identity of the self..I learn't too much about the present moment before i did the practice, & that slowed me down probably by months..I know for a 100% fact though that it's "all" practice, maybe 10% reading & 90% practice..I mean i read it from all angles before i realized, that reading is good to get the gist of the practice, but then it's all practice from then on..Iv'e still got a loooooong way to go, & that's just my honest take from my perspective..BUT!lol..I will say that meditating on our sense perceptions rather than using our mind, is better than any other form of meditating....Great chatting to yer guys.
I'd just like to mention that i learn't a lot of that stuff obviously from Buddhism, but also from Bruce Lee vids..He did the training, & was able to fight in the "now" without thinking..That's why he was so fast, & unbeatable..A great man, & philosopher.
@SpinyNorman. I think mindfulness sounds like hypervigilance. And that is why she likes 'awareness'. People think 'mindfulness' means that you are keeping an object of meditation which is not the case.
Well i had to look hypervigilance up on wikipedia!lol...Anyway I'd say it sounds very similar, but it's not the same as hypervigilance, because that's more like a state of awareness or being ready of an attack from all angles..Like the Jap warrior in the long grass waiting for an attack that could come from any angle, he'd be very alert to his senses but he would be monitoring them..Mindfulness is similar but there isn't a state of alertness of senses, because the mind isn't there to sense them or monitoring or being ready..Just a complete state of calmness & looking or hearing etc..Like the time you probably dozed off on the beach as a young kid, & it seemed like you we're absorbed by the sounds..You can't put your finger on it, but it sounded different until you realized.
Hey jeffrey i know you get the gist, but if you can find a way to define it in words your'l become a very rich man indeed!..I'll go 50/50 on it with yer!lol
Awareness, to me, is an unconscious process, the act of bringing an object into the radar of our senses, and that takes place independently of our will.
Mindfulness has a more directed feel to it. Like @Jeffrey said, there is some vigilance on our part, or at least the conscious will to observe, to be aware of the arising in our consciousness of those objects.
Here is what Bikkhu Bodhi says about mindfulness:
"What brings the field of experience into focus and makes it accessible to insight is a mental faculty called in Pali 'sati,' usually translated as 'mindfulness.' Mindfulness is presence of mind, attentiveness or awareness. Yet the kind of awareness involved in mindfulness differs profoundly from the kind of awareness at work in our usual mode of consciousness. All consciousness involves awareness in the sense of a knowing or experiencing of an object. But with the practice of mindfulness awareness is applied at a special pitch. The mind is deliberately kept at the level of bare attention, a detached observation of what is happening within us and around us in the present moment. In the practice of right mindfulness the mind is trained to remain in the present, open, quiet, and alert, contemplating the present event. All judgements and interpretations have to be suspended, or if they occur, just registered and dropped. The task is simply to note whatever comes up just as it is occurring, riding the changes of events in the way a surfer rides the waves on the sea. The whole process is a way of coming back into the present, of standing in the here and now without slipping away, without getting swept away by the tides of distracting thoughts.
It might be assumed that we are always aware of the present, but this is a mirage. Only seldom do we become aware of the present in the precise way required by the practice of mindfulness."
David Brazier adds a different take on sati as meaning 'stop:'
"Mindfulness training means to keep creating stops in which one stands aside from one's process and has a look to see what is happening."
@ Hamasaka
The nuances between the words describing our meditative explorations can sound like a discussion on fine wines, where I sometimes wonder how much of folks actual ability to discern one from the other is label dependent.
Hey thanks dharmamom it is exactly how you put it, & so in future I'll say that mindfulness is the practice that can/might lead to pure awareness..I do realize that if one was to sit there looking at an object, & trying to hold or maintain mindfulness with any effort pure awareness won't be achieved..However if a person was sitting there mindfully looking, & putting no effort whatsoever into it then he/she would probably experience pure awareness..I had 2 experiences of pure awareness one night whilst meditating, & it was around 3/4 months ago..That was with my eyes closed & laid down in the dark, but i did know I'd become one with everything....That was all i did know at the time, but it wasn't a scary experience at all..I haven't as yet experienced it whilst mindfully meditating with my eyes open, but i have had an obe experience as well..It's like i get a clue here, & a sign or snippet there!lol.
Yes, it can be
What I am perceiving is people arguing with each other over subjective definition and meaning as if their points of discussion were objective.
It's like two people yelling at each other in different languages. It 'sounded like' he said 'go soak your head in the toilet', but if we took a couple of steps back, the point of contention disappears, I can't find it LOL, and I got bored trying to figure it out. Just wondering if I was the only person with this, you know, trying to improve my objectivity
I really didn't want to say the arguments sound a little like "my woo woo is bigger than your woo woo AND it is more RIGHT than yours to boot" but I will
Yeah I wish I knew more about what my Lama was saying. She definitely teaches that it is impossible to focus permanently. That is to say there is always diffusion to spaciousness. In meditation we continuously diffuse outward and then continuously remember the method or vigilance. Without mindfulness we wouldn't be able to drift and come back. Tell me, have you had a meditation where you never diffused? I can sense the diffusion even in counting to two inbreath 1 outbreath 2. I still sense diffusion.
.> @Jeffrey said:
@Jeffrey
A gentler way of viewing it is that without our travels back and forth between diffusion and spaciousness, there would be nothing to call the middle way.
You could view meditation as being more about our relationship with diffusion or spaciousness, than about judging one as a journeys hindrance and the other as it's completion.
Discussing what is the right word to describe our current understanding can be very useful. So for example our mind can be full of awareness (mindful) but in awareness we do not have to be full of anything. That is why for some awareness is preferred as a label . . .
For many of us such pedantic attention to details is irrelevant to our experience and needs. In a sense we need wooing in a different form . . . :wave: .
Jap? Seriously? You're gonna use a word like that on a board like this?
You should get a teacher, who understands, and is qualified to teach Shamatha/Vipassana, to sit with you and so to bear witness to this "pure awareness" the next time it arises.
The truth is, anyone can make that claim. You should be able to offer something more than your say-so, to verify your attainment.
@Chaz why does he need to verify anything?
How can a teacher verify you have "attained" pure awareness?
And what classes the teacher as a qualified teacher?
I don't think any teacher is there to verify anything, there is no levelling up in meditation. So if somebody says to me they've had a particular experience. Great! A teacher is there to guide and teach right?
m m m
Bruce Lee trained muscle memory, that is partly why he was fast. He was a great mechanic, beaten by not understanding the dangers of over training. Beaten by death and ignorance.
Great man? Philosopher?
Perhaps. Perhaps others see acting slightly differently.
You have come to offer us insight and understanding, is it just possible that your experiences do not have the depth you imagine?
Too harsh? Information on teacups below
@Daveadams when I meditate I started on meditating on a fixed object like breath. This I believe helps generate concentration to still the mind.
Then working on mindfulness to use that concentration to bring about awareness!
I think you can probably just work on awareness but concentration of the mind has been of massive help to me!
>
~ MODERATOR NOTE: ~
Erm... sorry to come to this late in the day, (I do have to sleep, after all...) but @Daveadams, time for a bit of that hypervigilance, I think.
Have you any idea whether we have any Japanese members who might be offended by this terminology?
I'm sure it's not intentional, but it's careless.
In your analogy, the word 'Jap' is totally superfluous; it's utterly unnecessary to be this specific, and can be seen as pejorative.
Watch what you say, ok?
We're multinational here, so it's important to make allowances for that, without exception.
Just a heads-up for everyone, for all situations.
Thanks.
MODERATOR NOTE ENDS.
Carry on, all.
Yes, it can get like that sometimes.
Yes, the labels are important. For me "mindfulness" sounds like an active function of paying attention, whereas "awareness" sounds a bit vague and passive
Of course, nobody's Woo-woo is bigger than my Woo-woo....with the possible exception of the forum Gods, Linc and Brian.....
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I do try to watch for things like that...
I don't think it's necessarily a deliberate intention, to better others.
The problem is encouraging one's self to let go of wanting to be right.
That's a hard one, and something I used to struggle with enormously.
Still sometimes, now, but I don't think, as much....
Well, if someone makes merely a claim and then to impress upon others some sort of attainment to reinforce standing, and there is no way to verify that claim, it remains only a claim and therefore useless.
In other words what is a person claiming to have atrtained certain meditative states who actually hasn't?
We have no idea if what the @Daveadams claims is true or not. Prudence would dictate we take the former statnce
There are plenty of ways to determine whether or not a teacher is up-to-snuff. We have discussed that topic, on this forum, to death for years.
In many traditions, it is precicely what the teacher is for. To guide, yes. To teach, certainly. But teachers also evaluates the student. If there is any attainment in a student it is the teacher to see this first.
@Chaz oh ok! I might search one of these threads, I guess I find it incredibly hard to put into words some of the experiences I have had. I guess I'm sceptical a teacher can interpret a beyond words experience and say it had happened or not. When I know it has happened because I'm the one experiencing it! I won't bring up this discussion ! I'll have a read of the old ones! Thanks haha.
As for whether @Daveadams had this attainment or not... I don't think it makes his point stronger or weaker. You could tell me good advice id take it regardless if you can levitate or not.
I do think having a teacher is incredibly useful, that was great advice.
Have a great evening @Chaz !
But this is not advice. It is a claim. Unverfied.
I have no doubt my own teacher has attained far beyond anything @Daveadams claims for himself, yet has never once made boast about it, even when asked directly. He merely teaches..
@Chaz you have no doubt your own teacher has attained FAR beyond anything @Daveadams claims.
You don't even know Daveadams or what your teacher has attained yet you have no doubt.
Hey folks i apologize about the use of the word Jap when i said jap soldier, & would like to rephrase that as Samarai Warrior..I was very careless, & honestly didn't mean any offence..I'm not trying to make out my woo woo is bigger than any one elses, & all i joined for was to work some stuff out for myself..A lot of the stuff that's happened to me in the last year has been very strange to say the least, & i realized i was already trying to follow the 8 fold path before i heard of it..Also I'd already been working on the five hindrances before i heard of them, but that was all in an attempt at ending my depression & for self improvement..I was only practicing mindfulness + emotions & feelings control..So Iv'e realized fairly recently that Buddhism, & the Buddhas teachings are true, & they we're true before the Buddha discovered them..I read something a long time ago by the Buddha, & apparently he said we're to never take anything he said on blind faith..So I'm not here to challenge Buddhism at all, because it's starting to make a lot of sense to me..I can type something that to a none neutral thinking person might seem like I'm arguing or disagreeing, but that's just how it looks from their own perspective..I did experience on 2 separate occasions in the same night something that sounds very much like pure awareness, & i only heard of pure awareness very recently.. I'm not saying it was but I'm willing to post how it seemed to me, & see if anyone can shed some light on it (I'll try anyway!lol)..I never wanted a teacher because i new after months of too much reading & watching stuff on the subject, that i have to teach myself these things to realize them by only doing, but i will accept guidance from anyone out there..I mean everything Iv'e learned so far has been from utube or the internet or forums, but at the end of the day I'm my own teacher by doing..I haven't seen a good description of pure awareness, but if you show me yours I'll show you mine.
good post..I like Dr Braziers take on Mindfulness.
@lobster: I agree that bringing Bruce Lee into this thread is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. But let's not underestimate Bruce Lee as a great teacher in the field of martial arts. He has some fine books by the way, though of course, nothing relevant to this thread.
As to experiences in meditation, @Daveadams, I'm afraid you're not telling us much new. If some sensibilities got piqued by your comments, it's probably because sometimes it sounds as if you had invented the wheel and truth is, many people here are actually quite experienced in meditation and feel it's rather banal to capture particular impressions in words.
One tends to keep these comments to oneself.
Ok, @Daveadams;
It seems to me, at face value, and not knowing you at all, that your devoted and enthusiastic practice is obviously very effervescent and you're eager to transmit that.
Your experiences sound reasonable, but we all have to exercise caution when making claims or labelling something as a 'specific occurrence' when scrutiny and inspection may well expose it as something else - be it more, or less extraordinary.
Recently, a member on another forum claimed they could remember a number of distinct and separate past Lives; after much to-ing and fro-ing, it was established - and the member had to agree - that it could very well simply have been a series of implanted notions; maybe from having read accounts of such occurrences, or reading historical factual books on the history of such a place, and such a time...
And @Chaz is right; in some instances, a Teacher is extremely helpful, supportive and instructive - if only to help to keep your feet firmly on the ground.
Some traditions will tell you it's mandatory; others may advise that the decision is yours, and you may actually find more than one teacher who will guide you; others again will say "Life is your best teacher; if eventually, you find one, good, if not, just Pay Attention for now."
Whichever option you feel suits you best, there is absolutely no doubt that at one point or another - we all need an interface against which to compare notes. A teacher will be necessary.
And - I'm sorry to sound harsh, but - much as Youtube may have much educational and informative material, nothing beats sitting down with an actual someone and saying - "let's talk about this."
The important is to calm yourself, ('you' generically, not 'you' specifically) and still your mind. Keep your feet on the floor, and just practice.
In the end, it's not the destination, it's the journey.
And always, but always, use the ears, in proportion to the mouth.
In other words, twice as much....
I thought it was original. In the example, Brazier was trying to make a client who was prey to fits of anger become more consciously aware of the physical symptoms as they arose, in order to be better able to nip the fit in the bud.
She claimed that as anger was taking place, she was too busy in her head to notice (probably telling herself all the 'right' things to stoke the fire, I guess). He was teaching her to actually 'stop' and be present in her body, instead.
>
Well actually, it's not QUITE what he said...
You're referring to the Kalama Sutta.
This is a discourse and teaching on the above sutta, and shows why people think as you do, which is a mistaken understanding.
That's ok.
Sigh, the Kalama Sutta should come with big warning signs...
Its all in the context.
The Buddha was teaching a community of people..the Kalamas, who were NOT his followers.
They had another teacher. In fact they had several, most of whom contradicted each other.
He was saying don't put your trust in someone because it is the custom of your community..
He was basically saying " I have the real stuff..he doesn't "
Check it out.
It is reported that many of the Kalamas then did become his followers.
So most of the time when people quote second or third hand versions of the Kalama Sutta they draw the exact opposite conclusion to the one that the Buddha was pointing to.
YES!! The worst thing.that.ever.happened was whoever it was who called it the Buddha's "Charter on Free Inquiry".
It's anything but.
The Buddha gave very specific instruction on very specific conditions in a very specific context.
It's far from "free".
But I do know my teacher. I've met him, talked with him, eaten with him, he guides my practice and study, I've heard him teach and I even had a drink with him.
I studied the man for years before I commited to him.
He has never made claim to any attainment.
He is the most realized being I've ever encountered.
I don't know @Daveadams from...errrr.....Adam. Because I know nothing about him prudence dictates my skepticism regarding these attainments he speaks of. The fact that he made the claim, and then backpedaled later gives greater ground to my skepticism. In that he has noone to bear witness to his claimed attainment, coupled with the other factors, makes skepticism the only karmically healthy position.
It's a position I take with anyone fitting the same conditons.
I'd expect you to do the same.
@Chaz wow that's great you have such a great teacher, it's really wise that you studied him before you studied from him. May I ask how you got in contact with him? I haven't managed to find a teacher yet.
Hmm maybe I just don't read into deeply with what people write on here. I guess I'm an optimist! I like to keep an open mind but yes healthy skepticism is useful I just don't feel it's my place or another's to judge people.
Have a great day mate!
It's not people we 'judge' It's their Actions.
And I don't even think, in this case, judging is the correct word. it's a evaluation, a weighing-up, a discernment based on scrutiny, examination and careful consideration.
Anyone who devotes themselves to following a teacher without the above, or simply on hearsay, deserves all they get....
@federica well not actions, more like words! But fair enough!
judging has a bad stigma to it. I will go with your definition!
I will endeavour to find a good teacher
I hope there are a few around!
I had been studying his teaching online for some time. I hooked up with his students over in Boulder. I was able to meet him when he came to teach at Naropa for a month.
Hey folks thanks for all the great comments, & i appreciate all of them the same..Your the first people that I've found, that are even prepared to talk about stuff like this..I would like to say that i never said i attained anything, i just said i experienced something that sounds like pure awareness..I've experienced many very strange things (for want of a better word) in the last year, & i wouldn't actually expect anyone to believe me as their too far fetched..I wouldn't have believed me if i told all this stuff to myself a year ago, so i don't respectfully expect anyone on here to believe me either....I still maintain we can have many guides, but only one teacher..That teacher is ourselves, & so we can't take any thing on blind faith..So the Buddha left us his teachings to follow knowing that if practiced often until they became the practice themselves, their mind would shift back to neutral & logical thinking which is the end of their suffering....So mindfulness & emotions & feelings control practice, has dramatically reduced my suffering & i have shed most of my old desires (money/cars/women/drugs/booze etc), & so also people have to define me by my actions & not my possessions etc..As i went along i hit a neutral zone where i did nothing for months until i realized i was stuck, & i feel if a person only does the mindful stuff without using logical thinking they will also hit the neutral zone emotionally, & is very hard to get out from..Some people have described that as "the death of their ego", when it is actually a trick of their emotional mind..So i then started to apply a lot of logic as to whether i was eating right, & looking after myself which i realized i wasn't..That took a lot of effort to get out of, & i realized it was another trick of my mind at the time..So when my logical neutral thinking mind started becoming stronger than my emotional negative mind, that's when things really started happening for me, & my life has improved ever since....My main reason for being on here is because i want to learn more about mindfulness, & the various ways to practice etc..Then in my spare time try to help people that are being drained by their own depression, which dare i say in most cases of depression their causing themselves by the way their thinking....I can only see it from my perspective & mine might be wrong, but what i did over the last 7/8 months has cured my depression, & i haven't been brainwashed by anything..I don't see the different stages of enlightenment as attaining, i see it all as shedding old beliefs that we're mostly false beliefs..I would much sooner help someone now than not, & i have finally realized that it's helping others that feels the best.