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Artilcles of Grievances I: Race
This is a two part series for now in which I plan on adressing racial issues in America first and then one about romance possibly following up with a third one. Certain things have been bothering me lately and I am interested to hear your input.
Prejudice
If any of you remember, in the early Spring, I made a rather controversial post here about race. Apparently, I pushed a few too many buttons and I think someone got banned at the end and the thread was locked. So this time, I will attempt to be a little more mindful in my discussions.
Race is really a taboo issue in America. We like to think we are so accepting of each other now and that those old racist Confederate days are over. To an extent at least in the North, this is true. I myself am good friends with several immigrants, an exchange student, and a Cambodian. It is no issue for us. They toss around profanities and racial jokes left and right and to my surprise seem unphased by it. I personally don't too often but it seems the adults are much more affected by prejudice and race than we youngsters are.
They grew up through the Civil Rights era, so they have a level of aversion to prejudice. I understand this. Race doesn't matter much to teenagers though. There is a degree of acceptance among us in regards to stereotypes and prejudices. It is all done in a joking manner and no one comes out feeling bad. It is just funny. Adults have a hard time understanding this. "How could they say such things?" wonder the folks.
The Word
No, I am not referring to the 'n' word which is common amongst inter-racial friends resulting in no hurt feelings. I mean the word black.
Could someone tell me the problem here? I am actually related to blacks myself. My cousin whom I don't see often is fun to have around and he is black. There. I have said it.
During a South Park Episode last night, Cartman is charged with a hate crime and when the prosecutor inquires to know about Cartman's friend, the boy mentions that 'he is black.' The prosecutor goes insane berating Cartman for saying that and correcting him with 'African American.'
This doesn't seem to work. Most so called 'African Americans' have been here ancestrally far longer than my generations have. My family hasn't been here for 100 years yet. But we are white. We don't associate ourselves with Europe anymore. I have never even been there. I am hardly German our Czech.
My point is that fear of words only breeds more fear as to the nature of the word and that which it is meant to define. I have no qualms saying black. And none of the black friends I have made through the years have either.
Hate Crimes???
Can someone define this for me? When we think of hate crimes, the first image that comes to most is of a racist white guy doing violence to a black guy. And as is the case almost all the times, these are how the stories go in the courts of hate crimes.
But can you remember when a black man has been charged with a hate crim against a white man or a Hispanic charged with hate against a Chinese? I don't think I can. But my intent here is not to point out an imbalance within prosecutions, but rather I am denying the validity of anything commonly defined as a hate crime.
Is a man not filled with hate when he kills his wife's secret lover? Or perhaps when he defaces government property in protest of something? We cannot and should not deny a certain level of hatred here, or at the very least a strong dislike. But these people are not charged with hate crimes on top of their offenses.
Prosecuting people for hate crimes is something I find disturbing and ironically racist. This kind of legislation seeks only to separate people into groups and classes. People are treated and prosecuted differently because of their race. As far as I am concerned, such legislation should be abolished as was slavery and segregation before it. Because isn't that what it is deep down....segregation?
Knight of Buddha
--This was a bit longer than expected but I do hope you take the time to read it and take it into consideration
Prejudice
If any of you remember, in the early Spring, I made a rather controversial post here about race. Apparently, I pushed a few too many buttons and I think someone got banned at the end and the thread was locked. So this time, I will attempt to be a little more mindful in my discussions.
Race is really a taboo issue in America. We like to think we are so accepting of each other now and that those old racist Confederate days are over. To an extent at least in the North, this is true. I myself am good friends with several immigrants, an exchange student, and a Cambodian. It is no issue for us. They toss around profanities and racial jokes left and right and to my surprise seem unphased by it. I personally don't too often but it seems the adults are much more affected by prejudice and race than we youngsters are.
They grew up through the Civil Rights era, so they have a level of aversion to prejudice. I understand this. Race doesn't matter much to teenagers though. There is a degree of acceptance among us in regards to stereotypes and prejudices. It is all done in a joking manner and no one comes out feeling bad. It is just funny. Adults have a hard time understanding this. "How could they say such things?" wonder the folks.
The Word
No, I am not referring to the 'n' word which is common amongst inter-racial friends resulting in no hurt feelings. I mean the word black.
Could someone tell me the problem here? I am actually related to blacks myself. My cousin whom I don't see often is fun to have around and he is black. There. I have said it.
During a South Park Episode last night, Cartman is charged with a hate crime and when the prosecutor inquires to know about Cartman's friend, the boy mentions that 'he is black.' The prosecutor goes insane berating Cartman for saying that and correcting him with 'African American.'
This doesn't seem to work. Most so called 'African Americans' have been here ancestrally far longer than my generations have. My family hasn't been here for 100 years yet. But we are white. We don't associate ourselves with Europe anymore. I have never even been there. I am hardly German our Czech.
My point is that fear of words only breeds more fear as to the nature of the word and that which it is meant to define. I have no qualms saying black. And none of the black friends I have made through the years have either.
Hate Crimes???
Can someone define this for me? When we think of hate crimes, the first image that comes to most is of a racist white guy doing violence to a black guy. And as is the case almost all the times, these are how the stories go in the courts of hate crimes.
But can you remember when a black man has been charged with a hate crim against a white man or a Hispanic charged with hate against a Chinese? I don't think I can. But my intent here is not to point out an imbalance within prosecutions, but rather I am denying the validity of anything commonly defined as a hate crime.
Is a man not filled with hate when he kills his wife's secret lover? Or perhaps when he defaces government property in protest of something? We cannot and should not deny a certain level of hatred here, or at the very least a strong dislike. But these people are not charged with hate crimes on top of their offenses.
Prosecuting people for hate crimes is something I find disturbing and ironically racist. This kind of legislation seeks only to separate people into groups and classes. People are treated and prosecuted differently because of their race. As far as I am concerned, such legislation should be abolished as was slavery and segregation before it. Because isn't that what it is deep down....segregation?
Knight of Buddha
--This was a bit longer than expected but I do hope you take the time to read it and take it into consideration
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I highly doubt that a majority of our generation will be offended by these words. Because I remember that famous phrase, "Your words can never hurt me", or something along those lines. Sure, there are racists out there but, to be honest, I wouldn't care if someone said something insulting about my qualities of life. Someone might say I am a fat, white kid who does nothing but sitting around and watching the television...so?
I have a lot of friends who are of a different race and they seem seldomly bothered with racism.
I also find that hate crimes are pointless. Like KOB said, it is just usually when a white man beats down a black man. Shouldn't this be called manslaughter or possibly murder? Also, what KOB forgot to mention, is how we treat blacks in this country when they hit whites. They spend hundreds of years in prison for just looking at us wrong. They are on every news channel and everyone is talking about it. I can just imagine...
"Well the man in question, a fat caucasian, stole the truck, ran over 12 people, and shot his wife in the face. Thanks Todd. Now, in more important news, A BLACK MAN STARED AT A WHITE MAN TOO LONG! He is now facing charges of felony, attempted murder, and rape. He is expected, I mean going to get, 5 life sentences, and at the end of those sentences, he will get electrocuted."
I might have to whip out the old quote, "Can't we all just get along?". To follow up KOB's South Part episode, I have my own. The episode where Jimmy and Timmy bring the Bloods and the Crips together at the Community Recreation Center. They say, "Just come on!" Can't we give it a try to love each other and not kill each other, I mean come on!
I personally don't think we will see the last of hate crimes and racism and stereotypes, but, COME ON!
I can give you a simple explanation of what a hate crime is and why it is necessary to have such a category within the legal system, if you were being sincere when you asked for one.
A hate crime is a crime committed against a member of a persecuted minority solely for being a member of that minority.
The reason it is necessary to have such a legal category is because a hate crime is considered to be the result of a generalized hatred and is thus a more heinous crime. For example, if a man kills his wife's lover, he doesn't do so because he hates all men. He does so because he's enraged at the betrayal etc. But when a man kills another man for being homosexual, he does so because he hates all homosexuals. The same is true for crimes against members of races other than the dominant race, or social group etc. Do you understand?
I realize no legal system on earth is perfect but you need to understand these legal issues a little better before you criticize them. We're talking about some of the finest minds on the planet hashing and rehashing and hashing out again all of these issues, all around the globe, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, for a couple of centuries now. Heaven forbid I should appoint myself advocate for the advocates, but come on now. Do you really think you know more about these extremely complex legal and social issues than those who have devoted years and years of their lives exclusively to them? Don't you think that's a little presumptuous?
i dont agree with that, i think teenagers and kids are the worst and most racist. The amount of preconcepts and 'emotion based thinking' kids show.. is pretty bad.
You walk into a council estate here dressed in anything but trackies and you'll come under attack for no reason.. You work in a shop here.. kids will pick on you for no reason, save ignorance.. You look slightly 'nerdy' .. kids pick on you for no reason..
kids base everything on appearance, so if you are black, or from asia.. this is the first thing they will use to attack you.
As ive mentioned before i have a friend who is half pakistani, he often gets abuse hurled at him from indians.. mostly younger ones.. of around 14-20.. I think most ppl of any skin colour but normal standard white come under attack.. My manager at work has been insulted for his african skin colour..
Hell even i get insulted because I have very white skin, which is the variety that doesn't tan but just burns.
the young in my book are the most ignorant of all.. that includes me to an extent.
I understand that the whole 'black' thing is outta context. But more black americans are arrested than whites for crimes they didn't commit.. isn't that true?
Well things sound very different in England. Here in the states, most of the teenagers I know are quite accepting of homosexuals, intermingle with other races, and an Indian kid is one of the most popular kids in the band.
When I played for the State Fair in my state's capital, it was quite diverse and there was never any problems. Everyone got along regardless of color.
I can't say much on that. It would be impossible to prove. Blacks typically have lower income in America (below the poverty line) which naturally results in more crime.
So what if they are not a minority? For instance, a black man kills a white man because he is white. Wouldn't that constitute as a hate crime? Or since the white man is not a minority, it is just a regular crime?
When I was beat up a few years ago, the one of the kids that did it to me was black. He called me 'cracker' among other things. I could easily say this was a hate crime. Firstly, I never returned to press charges and secondly I was not a minority.
This is where it seems a little unfair. Isn't it unconstitutional to punish people differently because of their race? Because essentially that is what we are doing. I mean a black man and a white man can convict the same exact crime, but a white man will be charged with a hate crime.
How do you determine whether something is a hate crime (unless they tell you of course)? Every time on the news that you hear of a white man killing a black man, everyone automatically assumes hate crime. The civil rights leaders do as well. It is too gray an area to assume that any crime perpetrated against a different race is automatically hate.
Grant it, there are such cases. People do act out of racism, but I feel that the courts should punish people based on their actions, not their intentions. What is great about America, is that you can be racist in this country. The Constitution allows you to do so. Charging someone with a hate crime seems to go against the Constitution.
to say its different in america is a load of crock in my opinion.. ppl are the same everywhere.
You may be in a different and more positive enviroment.. but i honestly would gamble everything i own that there is practically no difference in our countries as far as racism is involved.
Yes many places such as the school i attended are full of nicey nice smart ppl.. but thats one place and if i judged all of england on that alone.. there would be practically no racism. But as i all too well know america has many 'racist ppl' in it.. and you also have a huge number of war vets... I watched one tv show which showed the skinhead/nazi headquarters in USA.. where some state (i forget)... had a huge number of white skin % in it..
I stick to "ppl are ppl wherever you go, and the sun is the sun wherever you go" cus its just so true. There is no society with all nice , non -racist ppl and ppl who don't believe in division and hate.. capitalism and war.
Kids are the most ignorant as they are the most in-experienced, most un-realised, most prone to emotional outbursts and loss of control. Ignorance is rife everywhere so saying teenagers there aren't racist is pretty impossible.
I'm 17, and I hate how we lightheartedly toss around "friendly" insulting jokes. On the outside sure... were all laughing... but on the inside no. For example someone self concious about being overweight might make fat jokes all the time to use it to become more accepted.
Of course this isn't always the case, but not everyone is this accepting of these jokes. For example me. All the more reason to be extremely careful who your telling these jokes to. You might come across someone of a race your making a joke about who is offended.
I agree Celebrin, I can't stand it. It drives me nuts.
"The Safe Schools Anti-Violence Project issued their third annual report in late 1996. It included the results of a survey of over 8,400 students:
- 95% of the students described themselves as heterosexual; 5% as homosexual or bisexual, and 4% as uncertain.
- Among the gay/lesbian/bisexual students:
- 6% of heterosexual youth reported being the victim of homophobic harassment."
"A 1999 survey of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual (LGBT) friendly youth organizations by the Gay Lesbian & Straight Educational Network (GLSEN) found that:*34% had been harassed because of their sexual orientation
*they were 3 times as likely to have been injured in a fight requiring medical attention than their heterosexual contemporaries
*they were twice as likely to have seriously considered suicide
*they were 75% more likely to report feeling unsafe at school.
- 91% sometimes or frequently hear anti-gay comments such as 'faggot' and 'dyke' in school.
- 61% report verbal harassment
- 47% report sexual harassment
- 28% report physical attacked.
- 38% did not feel comfortable speaking to school staff about LGBT issues.
- 58% say that they do not feel safe in school. "
Source here, and more info here.*Of those who reported verbal harassment, 46% reported that the experienced it daily.
And on top of that, my close friends frequently use the word "gay" as a universal word for stupid.
I have heard you mention this elsewhere. What does it have to do with racism?
Look, I understand there are plenty of racists in my country. A lot of them are the skinhead, old southern confederates, who really give the South a bad name.
Racism is pretty absurd though. Because when you think about it, there is no more than one human race. We are all humans. Some of us are white, black, or mallatto. This is nothing but skin pigmentation.
I didn't state that all teenagers were'nt racists. I have known a few before. I was saying that most of the ones I know are not. A rather small, biased scope, but most of the ones I have encountered across the state look past race.
It is a shame that more people did not take the philosophy of Steven Colbert to heart.
You left out the most important word in my explanation of a hate crime when you tried to rebut. I said "a member of a persecuted minority".
I don't know why you don't understand the distinction. White males are NOT an historically persecuted group in North America. You are among the elite and I find your attitude and lack of understanding disturbing.
so in terms of racism.. a lot of army personnel become racist..
KOB would you be willing to accept the possibility that maybe your group of friends and ppl u know are in the minority as far as teens/kids act?
" 1. The descendants of a common ancestor; a family, tribe,
people, or nation, believed or presumed to belong to the
same stock; a lineage; a breed.
[1913 Webster]"
I see what your saying though, we all are the same, we all have the same worries, problems, hopes, aspirations, emotions. We all have families, children, etc. Am I following ya?
Really sorry if you feel ganged up on, we are just a bit surprised over what you are saying. I'm going to make an effort to change the tone of my further responses. I don't want to cause a conflict. :eek2:
But in here.. i don't think its very valid, i think even talking to others outside of this forum.. theres little point. I'd love people to stand up and take notice of many things.
I just don't have the heart anymore you know, I've met ppl from all sorts of backgrounds whether i wanna or not.. i see all sorts of ppl.. Its all very nice saying my friends aren't racist, but we choose out friends, we choose who we confide in..
like me,.. i won't confide in some kids who lives on a council estate and wears trackies... I don't talk much to girls i consider ugly.. or who are 'essex girls'.. i mean you name em.. i avoid socialising with them.
I know racism is very common, cause ppl discriminate against me on a daily,weekly basis.. u may say.. "Dave, ur white.. " but when ppl make jokes about how light my skin colour is.. u gotta pause a min.. my skin colour is more common in Scotland and Ireland.. when ppl make jokes about my name.. or my clothes.. is fairly same thing.. if ppl try to provoke me cud i was sitting cross legged.. well again i put it in same catergory as racism. Racism to me is another form of discrimination.. and when ppl say these things to me, well what do they say to ppl who are coloured..
I have friends from diverse backgrounds, and I make an effort to be accepting of people. But, and excuse me for being so honest, I notice I find myself more comfortable around people who look like me (and that must effect the way I react to people of other races). We all have some form of prejudice going on that we don't think about. If only I was blind. :werr:
Why is that so important? Sure, they (blacks) were persecuted in Pre-Civil War days. And after up to the Civil Rights Era. But why should an individual or a group for that matter be treated differently based on what happened to their ancestors?
My ancestors fled Germany back in the late 19th and 20th centuries. Some did so because they were Catholic and they had been persecuted under the the Second Reich. I would surely not expect to reap any kind of treatment because of this. They are not me and no one would or should owe me a debt because of that.
After Ulysses S. Grant finished his bloody march in the South and burned Atlanta, he had suggested that all freed slaves receive 40 acres and a mule as reparations for the physical, emotional, and ancestral damage done to them. This never happened. The American government, slave owners, and many other Americans owed them that debt. But those days are long gone. Americans today do not owe such a debt.
I would not make a presumption that based on my skin color, I somehow hold a position of elitism. Perhaps you meant this to mean socially? Economically?
My dad grew up extremely poor in the 60s. Single Mother. Alcoholic Father. Worked to support himself and his mother. Elite? Hardly.
I am quite fortunate to have been born into a middle class family in America. We don't live extravagantly. We don't live on the big hill with rich dad and stay at home mom. I don't consider myself elite in the sense that you might be referring to.
Many would say in America that being a white male is a curse in the sense of higher education. Colleges are so obsessed with having so much of this group, so much of that group, x number of women, immigrants and such. Being a 'majority' can be difficult especially in regards to colleges.
There actually was a supreme court case about this once. I heard it in History class. Bakke vs. Supreme Court or California. I will investigate this later.
You are a member of the elite in every way; economically, politically and socially. Every human being on this planet lives under a white male dominated power structure. You are not persecuted by the majority because you are a white male. You're life, and that of your family and friends, is not in danger just because you and they are white.
The reason you don't fully understand this issue is precisely because you are a privileged white male. I'm asking you to widen your perspective, to see things from different angles, through the eyes of those who have been, and still are, persecuted just for being who they are.
Please understand how difficult it is for those who do suffer persecution because of who they are to listen to a white male complain about being a white male. Especially when that white male downplays or tries to invalidate their suffering.
I'm not saying that you have nothing to complain about. But please don't do it at the expensive of others. Are you familiar with the expression "appropriation of voice"? That's when a person of privilege invalidates the suffering of the oppressed and persecuted by saying that they, too, suffer persecution and oppression. That person of privilege may very well suffer these indignities, but not on the social, political or historical level as others.
picture things this way.. everyone has prejudices to start with. Unless they are treated they continue, how many of your friends have cast away these..
I don't attack 'coloured' ppl, but what comes to mind when i see some ppl is..that their skin colours is dirty, i can't help that.. its a very annoyign thing in the back of my head. I don't attack other ppl.. and i don't look down on them but i still have little nasty things tucked away that you can call racism. Just because i know better then to trust this stupid reasoning, doesn't mean otehrs do.
So many ppl have no clue about the false attitude of images,words and their own mind. Racism is inevitable. It exists in every facet of our culture in 1 way or another. Images need to sorted out first... not all usa or uk or anywhere can do that
You have got it! We are all raised with one set of prejudices or another. The trick is to notice and to confront them, daily. We used to speak about "reconstruction" in the days of the liberation struggles: we had to reconstruct our attitudes - and our language.
Look at what the Noble Eighfold Path (to introduce some Buddhism into all this) has to teach about Right Speech, which includes, of course, the words we use and the new language we must acquire. With a suffragette for a grandmother, I grew up with the notions of the early feminists. Later my education was furthered by working for some years with radical feminist Lesbians on my staff. It is by living within the oppressed community, even though we can never aspire to becoming one of them, that we learn - just like a foreign language, learned on the streets and in the cafes.
Racial discrimination exists at an institutional level in the UK. We may no longer see the signs I saw as a boy which read: "Rooms to let. No dogs. No Blacks. No Irish" but look at the education system. Because black students are currently lower achievers than white or Asian, the conclusion is drawn about them that this is because of their ethnic origin. Some of us believe that it shows, rather, that the education system is skewed by racism to expect less and, thus, to tailor the system to find it.
The Noble Eighfold Path is a single flower with eight petals, an eight-barred gate. The practice is not about being well-informed about what each aspect may or may not mean. It is about putting them into practice. They are a map of the way out of samsara but a map is useless as anything other than decoration if we don't use it to travel. Those for whom the struggle to achieve Right Speech is discomforting mock us as being "PC" or even "PC gone mad" when we object to certain words or turns of phrase. They seems to believe that jeering is a substitute for reasoned debate. It is sad that they may never have had the wonderful experience of hearing the strong views of those who feel disrespected by the words of the dominant culture. I miss those days when political action was enlivened by discussion (much derided) on the use of words such as "blackmail", "blackball", and, even, "history".
As with all behaviours and beliefs, we need to make them conscious, become aware of them, examine them and take reasoned decisions in the light of the Dharma. In this, our linked practices of reflection, discussion and meditation are useful, if not crucial, tools.
I used to have very similar feelings to you, so I think I understand where you are coming from. I think a lot of it came from the view that I felt I was being punished for something that I didn't do. Heck, my ancestors didn't even own any slaves (I'm pretty sure about this). They lived in the north & I don't think we had emigrated to the US until after the Civil War. If not, it was at least towards the end of the slavery era. So, I felt that affirmative action & other such things were unfair. I was paying off a debt that I didn't borrow.
I think though that the correct application of such programs is not an issue of reparations, but rather of fixing something that got broken. There are still many barriers against African-Americans (and other minority groups). Not that all of them stem from currently active racism, but most them are a result of slavery & racism. There have been far-reaching consequences of Slavery, the Jim Crow laws & such that are still doing damage today, though the connection is not apparent unless you know the unbroken history. Take for example the creation of 'the Projects'. This isolated/concentrated heavily African/American populations into small, impoverished geographical regions & municipalities. This, in turn, helped create many of the negative aspects of African American culture which people blame for their current inability to come up in the world. Organized crime preyed on these communities & exploited their poverty to get a steady outlet for their drug trafficking. This is the major contributing factor to gang violence. It appeals because it is a way out of poverty. It also gave rise to most of the negative stereotypes associated with African Americans today. And the people who came up with this system arguably had racist motivations.
Now, there is a lot more to this issue, such as nepotism, but I hope this at least illustrates some of the nature of this problem to you.
best wishes & metta
_/\_
Racism is learned and it can be unlearned. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. It takes understanding, broadening of the mind, empathy, sympathy and the understanding (or belief) that we have all either been members of other races in prior lives, or we will be in future lives. I think this is important because it personalizes it for us and thus brings us closer to the truth.
I used to love those discussions, too, Simon, even if I was usually the one who carelessly used some offensive term in the first place and was being chastised for it by some of my feminist bosses. lol! After the initial fireworks, the conversation would progress into social/historical/political ideas and thought and I learned more there than in 4 years of university.
Racism is a difficult subject to talk about, full of emotion and passion. But I don't think we should avoid talking it through just because it's difficult. Maybe we need to talk about it because it's difficult.
Palzang
Not really important to this thread...just trying to lighten it up and make everyone smile!
That is a fantastic idea, Palzang.
its like.. if im calm.. someone will run abotu at 200mph.. i actually told my manager to slow down.. but they don't listen even if u tell them why.. adults generally ignore what i say due to my age or refuse to acknowledge that they can change.
I was at the bus stop, and some 'old hag' started harassing the bus driver for no good reason save the bus was late.. the guy can't solve that.. and then when he left because his shift was over she was even more annoyed at him. Same thing happens at my work, ppl blame the workers for a mixture of things, such as customers wasting time, mangerial incompetance, lack of staff due to john tesco and his subs horrendous work ethics..
The sheer scale of ignorance i see when i step out the door is so huge, it means seeing ppl as deitys is a nigh-on impossibility for me, because i can't learn anything off them.. but only because of their sheer stupidity.
Maybe if you were to change your mindset a little bit, everyone wouldn't seem so "stupid" to you. Especially that "old hag" on the bus.
Everyone has a lesson to teach us. We choose whether or not we want to see that in each person.
i rarely meet ppl able to think past their trainers.. and when i do, they don't have any answers.. its kinda like meeting tons of ppl.. who are still kids. No matter what age, they still kids...
Its worrying when im sat at the bus stop, and im the most patient person there.. and the youngest..
Buddhism has a lot to say about "intention".
Do you come here to learn? or perhaps to teach? Do you achieve your intentions?
In many cases it is awakening something you already knew..
Maybe you can teach me about the grammar that you use on here. I have a very hard time reading your posts!
I am curious to know what you all think of this kind of comedy. Do you like stereotypical comedy? I mean be honest. I do.
What you've described is exactly the reason that you are a miserable, unhappy, isolated human being. Seeing others as deities is called "mind training" - it's designed to change your mind. It doesn't happen overnight, ya know. Or perhaps it's safer to stay trapped in your miserable habitual tendencies.
Palzang
i can usually find more answers by asking myself the question and thinking about it over a period of time. As asking ppl usually gets a bemused look.. and they end up confused even contemplating it.. and many can't really give u an answer because its currently beyond them.
although i may not be 'MR Happy'.. im not miserable and i honestly see very few deitys.. because i have a degree of patience and tolerance, understanding.. most others are impatient or show other signs of ignorance.. like being totally absolved in self. Most ppl just don't search for answers... they just accept society..
But society doesn't fit anyone, its ppl who make themselves fit. Fitting in my opinion means you are selfish.. and many ppl create false indentities to fit..
how can you get knowledge or learn from ppl who are that false? i think many many many ppl cannot comprehend anything that applies outside themself. Try asking ppl who they are? if they say a load of labels.. i normally think, this person hasn't realised much.
Palzang
Don't you think that is just a bit self-absorbed of you? You consider everyone to be lesser than you and no one as your equal. They are all too ignorant? They can't think past their own lives? Judging by your posts, couldn't many here make the same such presumption about you?
Well said.
That is all I have to say on this subject.
another point-well said.
i consider their possibilities not as inferior, but their current learning.. their current realistaion.. you gotta be aware most ppl are not aware of what they are doing.. ever. In stereotypes, rushing about.. in so many aspects ppl have no clue about anything... they have never thought about it.
have you not met someone who has nothing to teach and can hardly learn from outside influences.. who cannot read books not because of any mental problem as such, but simply because they don't understand what words such as conceited mean.. or any very common words.. simply out of lack of trying to learn.. and id think many other things too.
i talked to one girl.. she had no clue what i said.. simply because she doesn't know any words... that aren't very simple.. complex,inferior,conceited.. even the sentence "look outside yourself" falls on deaf ears.. unable to comprehend what it means.. images, words.. are completely unimaginable to her.
she asked me about god.. and i explained very simply.. that because god and the bible are under personal interpretation, man cannot comprehend gods words.. god belongs under no banner... To me thats very simple.. but she doesn't know what it means.. it confuses her
have you talked to ppl.. in a friendly manner.. only for them to show little or no interest.. to not even try.
there are many reasons.. not just 1
and yes KOB many can make that assumption of me, but over time hopefully they will see.. i do have something to offer.. even if its small.. and i can be talked to on some matters even if small..
even if i listen.. i can't teach the blind to see.. i'm fine listening but expecting me to help them past that is pointless and expecting me to learn something from someone who knows nothing but what they've been told..
if u offer someone advice who cannot comprehend it.. its useless,, if you offer someone useless advice you can't learn from it.
many ppl believe in true things but for the wrong reasons.
Palzang
After 63 1/4 years towards death, I can honestly say that I have never met any person who had nothing to teach me. I will admit that there have been times when I was not ready to learn, but that was down to me, not them, and I hope that, by and large, I have learned their lesson later.
Whether we learn or not is up to us.
Why not try an little experiment? For seven whole days, see if you can learn at least one new thing from another person each day. Keep a brief note of it each evening. If, in an evening review, you can't find anything that you think you may have learned, look again at your day until you do find something. Perhaps, from the street-living person slumped in a doorway, you may learn the dangers of drink or, from a rude customer, the power of politeness. Something. Anything.
Learning comes, too, from a desire to learn. Cultivate that, too, and even the shape and movement of the clouds may have lessons for us.
Of course, you may discover that you don't actually want to learn anything new. It might be too dangerous to your self-image to admit that all that you think you know is based on ignorance, from which all the other links of pratitya samutpada (interdependent co-arising) arise.
Thich Nhat Hanh says:
It may be, of coursae, that I have nothing to teach you. If that is so, please forgive my poor attempts.
Not any more. But before I really started paying attention and opening my own eyes, I used to feel that same way from time to time. But not about everyone, like you feel that way about eveyrone. It wasn't until I changed my own mind that I realized that everyone has something to offer.
I find that very hard to believe.
:wtf: :eek2:
i understand being with ppl.. can teach you stuff.. being around them.. yes because u think differently.. but from them... merr.. we'll see
i shud be more wary of my personal xps
In other words, while you aren't going to learn any superior views or practices from most of these folks, you can learn a lot about your own mental states. You can observe how these people rub you the wrong way & you may eventually learn just why these people trigger unpleasant mental states. And if you are studying the buddhadharma, there will come a point that you can learn from literally every experience (given the proper attention).
metta
_/\_
Palzang
That is so true. It took me a while to figure that out! When I am getting frustrated, irritated, etc with things happening in my life, I just stop and change my thoughts about what's actually going on, and that makes such a HUGE difference!
Palzang
Please specify in my posts where I denied the existence of racism in America. I checked my posts, and all I found myself saying was that race was not as much a hot-button issue to teens. Also, pray tell where I 'leveled insult against African-Americans.' Don't just make say something like that because you happen to disagree. Because I have done nothing of the sort in regards to insult.
Allow me to reword your foaming from the mouth, presumptious, babbling, racist comment here.
"You, black man, are a member of a degenerate race in every fashion; economically, politically, and socially. All you black people blame Old Man Whitey for everything, take advantage of generous opportunities and are basically, at the core, marauding thugs, brigands, and barbarians. You are persecuted by the majority because of the said barbarism and thugishness that your entire race embodies. The only people that you are in danger of are yourselves."
Wow, that sounds racist doesn't it? But all I really did to your post was substitute black for white and degenerate for elite. Using the common stereotypes of both.
Of course. I'm not wrong solely for the reason of holding the wrong viewpoint, I am primarily wrong because I am white. Just as all blacks are bad because a lot of them are criminals, no?
Again, please quote where I have invaldiated the suffering of others. I made the point saying that no one race has a monopoly on prejudice, suffering, or anything of the sort. Do not make such comments without at least humoring me with a quote of said racism on my part.
''Person of privelage?" If I actually placed any stock in the color of my skin or for that matter, the skin color of anyone else, I might actually find that offensive or racist. But I alas I am not and I don't. Once again, you presume that I am a person of elite standing and privelage. I don't consider myself either because I am not wealthy and my social standing is anything but stellar. Judging by your comments alone, are you saying that there is no such thing as an unprivelaged white person?
To prove a point?
I think the main point people insist on making is that they're RIGHT. That's too bad. WE CLING TOO MUCH TO IDENTITIES. Just Let Go. And Be Free and Happy.
Mind Garbage is Bad for the Soul. If somebody else has mind garbage, sharing my own mind garbage with him or her won't help. It will only make the dump bigger and smellier.
As said in many posts above: People can change their minds.
That's a Good Thing.
May Bliss Precede You on Your Path.
May the Road Rise Up and Kiss You.
And May You Litter the Path Behind You
With Abundant Seeds of Bliss!