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Lies
Why do people fib or lie? it really bothers me when people are obviouslly bullshitting you but there is nothing you can do... why do we do this? some stories i here are so completly fabricated i wonder if they rehearse the stuff.... exagerate or bluff or lie or fib... is it inescurity or what? im sick of it, i wish people could be honest
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You have the Enneagram as your avatar. Look in the house of the Three: deceit is driven by hopelessness and the failure to honour fear in the house of the Six, in that model, is it not?
Samasara is delusion. The deluded cannot grasp truth.
Would you care to elaborate as to which stories here are fabricated? What makes you think this? What gives you the impression people here are not being honest? This is interesting....please go on....
As Fed said,
Which stories do you feel are lies or, to use your own term, bullshit? What makes you feel that way? I would like to know that myself. Or are you referring to other stories not posted here? As to why we do this, who knows? Maybe that is why we are only frail human beings?!
Adiana
I see this kind of thing everyday. I just just feel bad for those people because they probably will never know anything better. We are the blessed ones. We see things a lot clearer than others. Buddhism is not about tolerance. It is about acceptence.
Truth and lies, a dialectical pair. But, like all such pairings, we only ennunciate it to hierarchise: truth is, thereby, to be preferred over falsehood. And, should we wish to escape from this duality, we imply a third term which will resolve the paradox.
I think that bodhicitta ('enlightened mind' or 'Buddha nature') looks beyond the dual to the chain of causation.
I have lied. I have deceived. And I have looked at my lies and my deceit and I have seen the power plays, the insecurities, the lies I have been told, the times I have been deceived. Why did I lie? Have you time to hear my story, from before I had a name?
I shall try to be clearer and more practical when I next post.
The thing is: I love the extraordinary tapestry of dependent co-arising that is the world we live in! And I get carried away by it.
And then, seeing the world and all that is in it as lovely, I look to see what is lovable in the liar. Not just for the liar's sake, you understand: for mine!
Do you know the practice of Tonglen?
I have to agree with Simon CI. Our life and this path are not so simple. The beauty lies in the complexity. For me slowing down and taking time to dig deep is the true essence of what I need. I live in an "I want it now microwave society" and this is very detrimental to deeper understanding. If I do not understand something it is an opportunity to google it and see where the search takes me. The jewels I have uncovered in these searches have at time been of no relation to the initial question but then again if I knew what it was I was supposed to "uncover" why would I search in the first place?
^gassho^
^gassho^
http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/tonglen1.php
Here is what Pema Chodron says:
Transforming Confusion into Wisdom
City Retreat | Berkeley Shambhala Center
Fall 1999
In order to have compassion for others, we have to have compassion for ourselves.
In particular, to care about other people who are fearful, angry, jealous, overpowered by addictions of all kinds, arrogant, proud, miserly, selfish, mean —you name it— to have compassion and to care for these people, means not to run from the pain of finding these things in ourselves. In fact, one's whole attitude toward pain can change. Instead of fending it off and hiding from it, one could open one's heart and allow oneself to feel that pain, feel it as something that will soften and purify us and make us far more loving and kind.
The tonglen practice is a method for connecting with suffering —ours and that which is all around us— everywhere we go. It is a method for overcoming fear of suffering and for dissolving the tightness of our heart. Primarily it is a method for awakening the compassion that is inherent in all of us, no matter how cruel or cold we might seem
to be.
We begin the practice by taking on the suffering of a person we know to be hurting and who we wish to help. For instance, if you know of a child who is being hurt, you breathe in the wish to take away all the pain and fear of that child. Then, as you breathe out, you send the child happiness, joy or whatever would relieve their pain. This is the core of the practice: breathing in other's pain so they can be well and have more space to relax and open, and breathing out, sending them relaxation or whatever you feel would bring them relief and happiness. However, we often cannot do this practice because we come face to face with our own fear, our own resistance, anger, or whatever our personal pain, our personal stuckness happens to be at that moment.
At that point you can change the focus and begin to do tonglen for what you are feeling and for millions of others just like you who at that very moment of time are feeling exactly the same stuckness and misery. Maybe you are able to name your pain. You recognize it clearly as terror or revulsion or anger or wanting to get revenge. So you breathe in for all the people who are caught with that same emotion and you send out relief or whatever opens up the space for yourself and all those countless others. Maybe you can't name what you're feeling. But you can feel it —a tightness in the stomach, a heavy darkness or whatever. Just contact what you are feeling and breathe in, take it in —for all of us and send out relief to all of us.
People often say that this practice goes against the grain of how we usually hold ourselves together. Truthfully, this practice does go against the grain of wanting things on our own terms, of wanting it to work out for ourselves no matter what happens to the others. The practice dissolves the armor of self-protection we've tried so hard to create around ourselves. In Buddhist language one would say that it dissolves the fixation and clinging of ego.
Tonglen reverses the usual logic of avoiding suffering and seeking pleasure and, in the process, we become liberated from a very ancient prison of selfishness. We begin to feel love both for ourselves and others and also we being to take care of ourselves and others. It awakens our compassion and it also introduces us to a far larger view of reality. It introduces us to the unlimited spaciousness that Buddhists call shunyata. By doing the practice, we begin to connect with the open dimension of our being. At first we experience this as things not being such a big deal or so solid as they seemed before.
Tonglen can be done for those who are ill, those who are dying or have just died, or for those that are in pain of any kind. It can be done either as a formal meditation practice or right on the spot at any time. For example, if you are out walking and you see someone in pain —right on the spot you can begin to breathe in their pain and send some out some relief. Or, more likely, you might see someone in pain and look away because it brings up your fear or anger; it brings up your resistance and confusion.
So on the spot you can do tonglen for all the people who are just like you, for everyone who wishes to be compassionate but instead is afraid, for everyone who wishes to be brave but instead is a coward.
Rather than beating yourself up, use your own stuckness as a stepping stone to understanding what people are up against all over the world.
Breathe in for all of us and breathe out for all of us.
Use what seems like poison as medicine. Use your personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings.
Dear Jason,
As a practitioner, I too, have been overwhelmed.
Starting out - I found this very disturbing. I had built an idea of what was acceptable study - and when I failed a dharma test, I suffered.
I suffered as a result of the idea I had built.
All our lives we are told: to fail is to be a 'failure' and to suceed is to be great.
Until we start to investigate the 'truth' of such a statement we will continue to suffer.
Can I ask you a question?
Did you perform the Drunken fist form perfectly the first time?
I didn't think so.
Each time you failed you were actually getting better!
This is the true meaning of practice.
Accept being overwhelmed and allow it to deepen your practice.
Remember, however you 'feel' about things - I have the upmost respect for you.
For you are who you are.
It's time to accept it.
Gassho
this applies to honesty too... honesty builds truth and truth is important, it builds trust and a strong relationship....
when people are liers all the time it really makes you doubt anything that comes out of their mouths, you cant trust them anymore.. sometimes it ends relationships....people lie to look good or be greedy but when they get caught they look really bad...
what made me think of this was I have several friends that compulsively lie.... like when they tell a story it is completely made up from start to finish... for example i will finish telling an interesting or funny story, they will try to "one me up" by telling a complete lie to make themselves sound better....heres an example:
i start the story with
"yea i went golfing and shot a 4 parr over today..."
then they say
"oh yea.... i went golfing last week and shot a 2 parr under"
theyre tone of voice changes, they lose eye contact, they sound nervous and i KNOW theyve never shot a game of golf in their life... then if i ask questions about it they get offensive or evasive about it....
it really bothers me... i mean that was just an example i made up but heres a real life situation:
this girl says to me
"yea one time my sister got drunk at a party when she was like 8...haha... yea they were giving her like 3 beers and... she was like umm...all "heyyyy im so drunk"... and stuff hehe"
now i knew just by the way she was telling the story she was lying... i didnt find it all that funny either.... it really got under my skin to know she was telling a lie about that because its not the first time shes done it either... shes really pretty, smart and funny so it bothers me that shes insecure or feels that she needs to lie to feel better about herself... but thats just a "story" lie, there are other kinds i encounter all the time too, for example
"oh yea i get my paycheck tomorrow, ill drink with you" my friend will say, but then ill call the next day and he'll say "oh umm... my boss didnt drop it off, itll be here tomorrow" so i call tomorrow and the lies just keep on going, untill i get sick of the games....
ive had people shake my hand and pretend to be my friend only to have them steal 40$ off me 5 mins later... that kind of dishonesty chokes me up....
then there are exageration lies...
theyre a bit less decietful but they still bother me... i think we all do this at times... but my mother, she is the drama queen of exaggeration... "GET UP, its 12 oclock" when its really 11:20... "Mow the lawn, its a foot long!" when, obviouslly the grass isnt a foot high... "Im sick and tired of cleaning up after you, every damn time you [insert activity] you leave a huge mess that i have to clean up" when its not true....
i duno... i really wish people were more honest with themselves and eachother... that doesnt mean they have to be rude.... but when they tell a story at least it can be partially true:(
i duno man...
when you are really hurt by a lie, for example:
the first girl i lost my virginity to lied to me about her age... she said she was turning 15 when she really really turned 13... i was 16 at the time... the person who told me was calling me a pedophile... the same guy that was threatening to beat me up, kill me... eventually pushed me from behind when i was going in my locker... my hand got caught n i ended up losing my thumbnail... he still calls me a loner and a bitch all the time... he lives across the srteet from me...
that sucked, but that little lie that she caused ended up hurting me a lot,
i dont think i was causing myself that pain was i? if i wasnt hurt by it i dont think id be human...
Lying is a form of violence that one person commits on others.
How we receive it and respond can be mindful or distracted.
The Buddha's words on this are recorded in the Dhammapada:
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me," the hatred of those who harbour such thoughts is not appeased.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me," the hatred of those who do not harbour such thoughts is appeased.
This is where the practice becomes difficult. It may seem hard to meditate regularly and at length. It may seem mind-numbing to read the sutras and the treatises. But the real test of our footing on the Noble Eighfold Path comes when we are attacked, physically or verbally.
Many of us have found that it is not a Buddhist but a Hindu who, in the modern world, spoke most clearly about confronting violence and oppression - non-violently - and that was the Mahatma, Gandhi.
Looking at his life (and his death), we see a man who suffered beatings, imprisonment and assassination. All because he would not strike back, nor would he give in to hatred or revenge. But his peaceful mind did not mean that he wasn't hurt by the beatings or that he was not about to die when he was fasting.
The path of non-violence is the hardest path that we can choose. It challenges everything that seems logical and that we were taught.
When I worked behind a pub bar, I was taught that, when a customer is rude or difficult, I should simply become more polite! I was to bear in mind that our customers should feel better and happier when they left than they did on entering. There were times when I could happliy have strangled the "show-off" Birmingham businessmen who were out to impress by being rude to the barman.
Here is a sad truth: we can't change other people, they can only change themselves. What we can do is model the behaviour we prefer. To the liar, we must model absolute honesty. To the violent, we must be loving and gentle. The result, of course, is that we shall be lied to and may get hurt.
The Buddha promised us the awakening that is both here, now and the goal to which we move. He didn't promise that it would be easy!
Above all, I believe that the secret of coping with the violence of others is to love them. When we see them through the lens of loving-kindness, they may hurt our body but we can receive the hurt and transform it for their benefit. This is one of the fruits of our silent practice. The sad truth is that we shall not stop the violent or the liar: they must stop themselves.
You ask a truly valid question: IMHO, you do cause yourself pain, in the remembereing and recounting these stories, because you cling to the anger and the disappointment. Transforming the events from "an attack on me" into "a new learning about the suffering we all experience" may help.
A highly skillful means to cleanse ourselves of the anger, hatred and desire for revenge, is to practise Metta (particularly towards those who have attacked us) as part of our first meditation of the day, with the intention of abiding in it, one day at a time. We can so easily becaome addicted to our negative feelings.
Good one Simonb - thank you for that.... have printed of and pinned up against my photo of Gandhiji....
If anyone would like it, grab away.....
Thanks for explaining what you meant. I can relate to what you mean by not liking it when someone does it to me but as to why people do lie---well, I just don't know why. I guess it's like what I posted earlier: Maybe because we are frail human beings? All I know is that, yes, it does bother me when others lie and I can tell they are doing so. I figure the only thing that I can do is to try to understand their need for doing so---maybe they suffer from a lack of self-esteem and they feel that their life is not interesting enough so they figure they must prevaricate to sound more important? Who knows? I figure that I can be the better person and not try to humiliate them by catching them in a lie to expose them. But then my experiences are not yours and this is just my own opinion.
Adiana
My husband has admitted to me that he used to make up stories when he was younger just for the fun of it. He's very intelligent and I think he just wanted to see how far he could go with it. Fortunanately, he's stopped with that as far as I know.
For other people, I think it is insecurity. I've known a few people that when I met them they for some reason felt that they needed to brag about all sorts of things - as if they were too uninteresting for anyone to otherwise care about them. One girl started out talking about her pagan beliefs and that was fine, how she had done some magic. I have plenty of pagan friends so that's not anything strange for me - though I thought perhaps she was a little too open about it seeing as I had only known her for about 5 minutes. The next thing I know, she's talking about having sex with dragons on the ceiling. I guess I didn't seem impressed by her magic talk so she thought she'd turn it up a notch.
Hi DharmaKitten!
How are you and your family? Long time no "see!" Good to hear from you.
Yeah, being Wiccan I have had some---shall we just say, tall tales told to me as well. Whatever. I just take things with a grain of salt anymore! LOL! Sex with dragons on the ceiling, huh? She sounds a little bit mentally instable to me! Just my opinion, though! How did you keep a straight face? I would have laughed my behind off! LOL!
Adiana
People lie because the world is a deception.
People lie because they do not know the truth.
People lie because they hurt or fear imagined hurt.
People lie because they are people.
"Of all the Liars in the world, at times, the worst are our own fears."
We tell lies to try to maintain a control over a situation, but if ever there was a flimsy, rickety bridge between Reality and Illusion, Lies are the worst.
As a kid at school, I suffered a huge inferiority complex. I've always been small, but it really played against me. Once, as a sixth former, I was mistaken one day for a new first year student - that's a drop of SIX years - !! Throughout my school life, I was an habitual liar. I would say anything and everything, just to try to be accepted into the 'gang'.... Needless to say, it was a failure, and my schooldays were definitely not the 'best days of my life' -!
I could give you countless episodes, but suffice to say I got a wake-up call, and realised that it was a real downward spiral. I can't abide lies, now..... because I recognise the damage they do - chiefly to the person lying.... I view liars with a compassion i didn't know I had, because "I've been there, done that" and I know a Liar is a person in Pain.
If a person resorts to habitual lying, there is a complex there being kicked in the teeth..... it's not the lies, (symptom) it's why they're Lying..... (cause) that needs addressing.
Mind you, let's moderate a bit....the occasional fib is ok.....
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
"No.... your FAT makes you look fat."
OUCH!
It was then that I realized that the issue wasn't really about deception but about power and control. Because the real question was, why was I relying so heavily upon other people's information? I mean, it's all information, why rely on it? That helped me to see how I had been giving my power away in those types of situations to those who were deceiving me, and when hurt as a result, I reacted by feeling powerless and victimized by them.
But once I realized that I needn't rely on the information, I no longer felt the need to give my power away to others. Now, obviously, I didn't give my power away consciously, but I certainly gave it away subconsciously through fear or ignorance. And that's what I needed to recognize.
Afterwards, I noticed that the situation would play out in one of two ways. Either a person would lie to others but not me, or they would lie to me, but I would not be affected by it. Instead, I would merely observe their deception and think to myself, "How interesting. They need to lie to me." And that would be that. Either way, as long as I was clear within myself, I no longer had to deal with deception in my life.
Recently I experienced this issue again, but I'm still a bit puzzled about the situation. Someone lied to me, and it really pushed my buttons. In fact, I was very hurt by the situation. But here's the thing ... I don't believe I deceived myself about that person or our situation. Every step of the way while getting to know this person, I was very careful and examined both that person's motives and intentions, as well as my own, so that's what puzzles me. I also don't think I was running any victim issues at the time either, even though the situation certainly left me feeling victimized. Obviously there were some power and control issues going on, but I haven't quite figured them out. Oh well ... I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually!
As to why people lie, I think it has to do with the same issues surrounding deception in general -- power and control. My mother used to lie a lot, and I also used to have a couple of boyfriends who were very similar. It was as though they felt they couldn't live unless they could lie. And if you pointed out their lies in an attempt to get the issue out in the open and discuss it, they would feel very threatened and become defensive and evasive. Needless to say, it was difficult to deal with. I know that for my mother, it tied in with her entire sense of worth and self-esteem. She really had no sense of who and what she was about, so she would always compare herself to others. That would inevitably lead to jealousy and competition, and then the lying would begin. When she could lie to people she was jealous of, she got a stronger sense of self-esteem and power. So pointing out her lies to her placed her in a very powerless position -- at least, from her perspective -- and that's why she would become defensive and lie even more.
I don't know if any of that helps, but that is what I have learned about lying over the years. However, like I said, I'm still dealing with a couple aspects of this issue, so maybe I'm not the best person to comment on the subject right now!