What did my face look like, before i was born?.
Daveadams
Veteran
If a Zen Master we're to ask me (which hasn't happened so far) what did your face look like before you we're born i would reply with the following answer, & wondered if anyone has any thoughts or comments..I would say that i haven't been born yet, as I'm within the womb of Mother Nature learning & hopefully "growing"..If someone who, lets say wasn't a Zen Master we're to ask me, I'd say: If you consider where i keep some of my main sense receptors ie my eyes ears mouth & nose as my face, then i would smile & say this is my face before i was born, & it's constantly changing & getting older..I would then hold up a mirror so that he or she could see their own face, & explain that their real face is the one their building by their actions, & the one in the mirror is the wrong view of their face..I will reveal my face to myself as i learn & grow, & when my body is seen by others to die..By all the things i stood for, & loved doing in my life..Then i will judge myself on whether or not i deserve a chance at real life, by whether or not & what kinds of love that i had in my life..Only i really know if i care or not & whether i truly love something or someone, so only i can judge myself when i die..This doesn't make me god, because i know I'm learning this stuff for the first time as i grow..In my theory (& this is only a theory folks) we will live for as long as we love, but it has to be a real deep love for doing stuff in real life as opposed to the T.V....This does not mean that everyone who dies never loved anything or anyone, no if someone you know who was a great human being has died, I'm pretty sure they've only died from your perspective for some death/dukkha to help you ask some big questions & to learn.....So your mother, my mother, every bodies got a mother, who had them, conceived them, created them, & all those mothers are Mother Nature....Mother Nature created the seed, you me & Mrs Dupree..That seed is now in Mother Natures womb growing, & hopefully learning to really love life.....Nature "is" the "actual" law, & we're all breaking that "actual" law. :-(
Comments
Probably too much of an answer for the Zen master.
They'd want utter simplicity, probably non-verbal if manageable. They don't want to hear an intellectual explanation, in fact that's exactly what they don't want to hear. Instead they want you to demonstrate that you know and see for yourself. I'm sure you'll get a more complete answer from some Zenites, so stay tuned...
Cheers buddy, right then, all i would say to the Zen Master if he wanted words back, is i haven't been born yet..But if i had to show it in actions, i would turn around & show the back of my head..I can't define myself with words only actions, & i can never catch & then define myself during actions..So no matter how quickly i we're to spin & look, i can never catch a glimpse of the back of my head..At the same time i can never say what my face actually looks like, because it's not finished yet..Every time i spin to look no matter how fast i spin I've just missed my self, & that is always looking back & not to what i am right now..So I'm personally working towards an end goal, & my idea of my perfect face....I will 100% agree that words don't come any where near in explaining how i feel, but if someone thinks along the same lines as me they can help me or i can help them..I know i haven't got life worked out yet, but i know I'm getting closer all the time. :-)
first of all 'what do you mean by 'face'?
The thing about this question I find interesting is that the purpose is to generate what is called in zen "great doubt". The best simple explanation of great doubt I have heard has been: "Great doubt is the determination to get an answer and at the same time not accepting (i.e. doubting) whatever answer one finds in the process." Such a good explanation!! What it means to me is whatever answer you find, well, that's not it.
Which is your "true" face? You can only pick one!
PS: I have no idea what I looked like before I was born.
what i see is different 'colours' in the 'screen'
when i try to pick 'my' 'hand' touch the 'screan'
@Daveadams
Koan news flash...
The question is asked not to get a formatted intellectual answer that you've prepared for.
It's for you to trust your practice in the** moment** that the teacher asks you a question and to demonstrate that trust with your expression of that moment.
Hint....The answer the teacher looks for involves your freedom from worrying whether it is judged as right or wrong.
@Daveadams I zen student once brought his teacher a bullfrog as an answer to a koan.
The teacher replied "too intelligent".
What @how said, I've heard of some koans having no answers. The point isn't to answer the question. The point is to wake up.
Moved to 'General Banter'. (newbuddhist.com is for forum-related technical discussion, just fyi.)
I'm aware of that thanks Earthninja, but how can i give no answer when all i have are words to type?....He showed the master a bullfrog saying, that is my real face....He was wrong because his face isn't finished yet, & won't be finished until he dies....He can't know what his unfinished face looks like before he was born, because he hasn't got one until he dies....He could just smile at the zen master, & then give him a big hug & kiss....Showing his true face by his actions only, & showing that his face is a face for love to shine through.
Don't know about yours, but mine looked hideous.
He could also shit on his masters plate!
How Zen is that?
... \ lol / ...