Clinging to form, tendency for passion instead of dispassion.
Woah93
Veteran
So, personally I am more interested in the forms expressed in love and in particular the difference between romantic love as in attraction and "I love you" which seems to me merely a way of satisfaction for the personality vehicle, and only serves to entangle us and is concerned with the self, and that other kind of love which emanates objectively for other beings unconditionally.
Now most forms I can let go of in meditation and increasingly I notice a more selfless nature in my consciousness. What I struggle with however is seeing love on the personality level as just an emotion, and specifically for people I share intimate pasts with it's hard to break the attachment, even in deep states of awareness. It seems like there is an addiction to the drama, bonding and connection resulting in peaks of bliss and thereafter sadness (which oddly, I find quite a charming emotion as well).
However healing and complete the glimpse of unconditional love I felt in metta sessions was, this great rollercoaster ride is quite enticing and hard to detach from over and over again.
So, my curiosity is great on this matter as to the dangers of attachments specifically created by intimacy, romantic love, attraction and so forth and how to handle that energy and emotion in a healthy, compassionate way instead of a source for possessiveness, separation and suffering when the object of desire is slipping from your grasp.
Comments
As a Scorpion I'm very badly placed to talk to you about dispassion...
But you mention possessiveness, drama, sadness, separation...
There are more wholesome ways to relate to Love.
It's a very personal path and every person that passes through your life teaches you a new lesson.
You should probably consider what kind of person you attract into your life.
Is there a pattern? Is negative attaching the usual way you relate? Is the problem them or you? Or both?
Attachment is never the right approach with anything in life.
Looks like love life is the turf for you to work on your attachments.
The Path seems so easy until we come across our besetting sin: toxic love, binge-eating, negative emotions, addictions... each one has his own.
But attachments are meant to be subdued in ways that work for you and the environment you interact in.
I can't imagine life being any other way for a young male of the species
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Try not to make too big a deal of it until your testosterone is ebbing away, mid to late 30's is typical. In the meantime, I think you have a decent grasp on the PROBLEM whether or not you have a grasp on the SOLUTION. It is orienting toward the solution that has us practicing or practice in the first place. Your human body and mind are throwing a huge party still, and maybe just knowing that, and giving this knowledge a dry chuckle might decrease it's hold on you rather than drawing your biggest sword and going in for the kill.
Well I'm not sure it is due to testosterone but it, in particular with this that certain person I feel emotions for that carry a certain warmth and of genuine care that it is almost addicting to be around.
I do genuinely want this person to be happy, regardless of any personal gain, but I can not lie the pull is strong to keep clinging to how this person makes me feel when being in the presence.
I guess it comes from a place when I was unsure about myself, wasn't feeling loved or even liked by anyone and she came into my life just accepting me for me and kind of pulled me out of my shell in some very profound ways. Growing up in a hostile environment with fighting parents at home constantly just made this a very important person in my life, and has been since.
Maybe the key is to learn from the qualities in her that I admire so much and bring them into my own personality, and start giving that quality back instead of just wanting to receive it. Hmm. While writing that that does make some sense.
It's much more of an emotional and intimate nature than a sexual one, but it IS a huge distraction for me right now and it's hard to figure out the entanglement and break free.
It might be what we call love?
I seem to attract Cancer, they constitute 90% of people close to me, haha, but I'm not sure of the significance of astrology in relation to personality's :P
The usual way I relate with new people is through intellect and genuine sharing of idea's and creative interests, the people I relate to the most are mental types usually. Psychologists, scientists etc.
It might be what we call love?
But how to accept that when it is focused merely to one particular person without wanting it which creates the separateness, clinging, sadness etc?
It seems like it is all or nothing but with the all the attachment seems very strong and with nothing I shut down to everything.
That's the instincts and hormones adding to the difficulty. Buddha's message was the method to cease suffering, and in my present understanding, some huge percentage of our suffering is 'automatic', driven by (in your case) the young, strong, healthy human male body. Being a middle aged female, I definitely am just offering this as an opinion, hopefully helpful but definitely with some sympathy. Having been a young healthy female with similar automatic drives is part of my understanding though I suspect males have always had a harder time (no pun intended but I'll allow it).
Having my raison d'etre (per evolution) fulfilled, my remaining time might just be for extra credit?
So it seems you can cloak your desire in all sorts of fancy clothing and name it something more spiritual but in the end, it's just lust plain and simple. That doesn't mean YOU are bad or that your lust is, and I'm not even sure (unless you put on a monk's robes) that you SHOULD do anything but see it for what it is without adding frills and furbelows to it, you know?
You sound like a very good guy
And btw I'm a Cancer with a soft spot for Scorpios, I could not be less surprised @Dharmadragon you Scorpio you 
.
Yeah I do know about the subtle ways in which we cloak, but I do have experienced lust and sexual attraction and this is something else. I don't cling to lust or the sexual attraction though it is present, but it is rooted a little deeper I think. I have fallen for a fair number of women, but this one has stuck through out all of these, so hence it sparked my attention as it kept resurfacing in awareness.
I'm aries by the way, I like fire. Mars lead me the way, huah! :P
You don't feel it is a hormonal thing? However if you were a ram, scorpion, lion or crab, your altruistic attraction would be for one of a different species.
So perhaps this attraction is hard wired into the body.
A higher form of wishing well being is based on feeling metta towards those who do not reward our needs, desires and hormones.
How to develop that? We apply what we have as an experience in one area to others. That is my plan. :wave: .
If you take astrology seriously it really isn't that simple, the exact position of planets at your time of birth all carry influence according to the theory, and the current position of planets does in the here and now as well. The whole 2012 thing is based on planetary formation.
Below is example of a birth chart in astrology so that is some pretty complex stuff.
I don't buy into the whole newspaper horoscopes but planetary influence does hold at least some merit in my view, especially at the time of birth when you are so responsive to everything.
Anyway, I don't know what it is really, it just seems like we are on the same page on everything and share many similarity's which I have not yet experienced with anyone else. I really can't explain it, but I think it's one of those things you will not experience with that many people, that complimentary vibration which does all the work. Like I said it's not really about sexual feelings or having a crush, rather a magnetism. That "something" is making it hard for me to let go, and sometimes I don't even know if I really want to or not which makes it more complicated.
On a positive note though, this has been a great source for learning and practice with emotions for me lately so in that regard it comes in very handy.
I guess metta will do me good yes, and a wider perspective.
Metta is always helpful, particularly towards oneself. We all struggle with these difficult emotions to some degree, you could say it's part of being human. With mindfulness they can be seen and accepted for what they are - just feelings - and eventually they can be understood and let go of.
( you've got me talking about "let go" now
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An in-depth study of the 4 Noble Truths will eventually bring fruit. Until you completely understand, absorb and accept these Truths as the profound teachings they are, no amount of Metta meditation will completely eliminate the clinging and grasping you have for the fleeting satisfaction of the kind of love you momentarily enjoy.
Until you truly know what the 4 Noble Truths mean, you will always be grasping at smoke.
I myself practice and admire buddhism but I don't agree necessarily in the four noble truths as life being impermanent and the anxiety to hold on to things that are changing.
I guess if we are labeling I would say I follow theosophy, which shares many similarities but instead of transcendence for liberation and nirvana (if I'm correct?) it follows the lines of self-sacrifice for group purpose, the idea of a higher permanent consciousness and influence also known as the soul which can be made aware of through certain meditation techniques, and the holding on to ideas which are conceived of during those meditation techniques which is said to come directly out of soul consciousness, which isn't concerned with your personality gains. I guess it's in normal terms the inner wisdom you tend to receive in deep states.
During that holding on of the idea, thought-form or vision you transfer it from soul to mind, from mind to brain, and from brain to the emotional body and with that alignment and disregard of self-interests you carry that idea out into existence.
Anyway! Update on the attachments
I actually made some progress. In space of awareness I notice that this particular emotion is in itself a very positive and uplifting experience but it was my reaction from which clues were given to suffering.
The very act of wanting to let go was me not letting go. I am practicing metta right now and contemplating these emotions and I think just being grateful for a feeling and connection like this with no expectation of result or desire for it to go anywhere is much more helpful and healthy for me.
All that in just a day! I should write down these things more often
It seems to help.
The reason they're called 'Noble' is because they're indisputable. If you can prove they aren't, do let us know. Otherwise, you're just in a state of perpetual denial, because you'd rather NOT believe them....
Everything is disputable because your variables are endless and we still haven't got a clear grasp on what those variables are, consciousness is as you know constantly changing and fluxing and hence, the laws and truths can change accordingly, . Buddha knew this and a bit of right understanding might help you rather than blind obedience. Experiment rather than obey. That's just my take on it.
Oh I don't dispute but I don't believe it either, I'll wait how it plays out in experience, and so far the other version has won for me personally. I don't see how I have to prove or disprove anything for having different beliefs, in the end through trial and error the actual truth will be apparent to me so don't worry there is no need to convert or convince me.
I think that a Buddhist practice that ignores the 4NT should be more accurately be called a Woah93 practice.....
after
the number of woah sounds such a practitioner is likely to make everyday in trying to figure out sufferings cause without the 4 NT.
OK..that last part is mostly a joke.
...I'll wait how it plays out in experience..
Yes, that's a good approach. Observe it carefully though.
Yes - and as they say, there's many a true word said in jest....
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Given that @Woah93 isn't Buddhist, and doesn't actually follow Buddhism, and disputes everything he chooses to see as disputable, even though it demonstrably isn't - I actually wonder what he's doing here.
Either you want to learn about Buddhism and incorporate its tenets into your life, or you just want to challenge Buddhism with your own "Ignorant" preconceptions...
I mean, WTF does -
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Mean - ?
It's not possible. And it's not possible, because otherwise you wouldn't be here asking questions about -
....Would you?
Which clearly indicates you're looking for solutions but you're unwilling to take on all the work it entails.
Yes, I see how that's working for you...:rolleyes: .
@Woah93: I have to insist here.
Whatever way you want to explain it to yourself, my guess is you're in love with this girl.
Love does twist up our hormones and best intentions and resolutions for sense-subduing (sorry, too much rare-book reading and I'm beginning to sound like Rhys-Davids and F.L.Woodward, lately)
If you're in love, and it's requitted, just go ahead and enjoy yourself.
If it's not requitted, then go back to your metta-meditation and all the mumbo-jambo to control your senses, your lust and blah-blah-blah.
So our naughty @Hamsaka has a soft spot for Scorpions...
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We're the zodiac's scoundrels, aren't we?
Yes you are scoundrels to the (wo)man. There's this vulnerability that makes Scorpios mesmerizing, this bubbly warm exterior that might shoot out a really REAL thing and shock the shit out of everyone (for their own good, usually). Well, these are the Scorpios I know and love anyway
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I've had a lot of trouble with Virgos myself.
@Federica Yes it's working for me, are you perfect? I still have issues and like advice and am curious, but the difference between you and me is that I don't have attachments to buddhism. Which is also attachment. And given that the perceiver has much influence on the perceived, different truths can and do work out in the reality's of different peoples.
You don't need to know what I'm doing here, as long as I know that. I would advise focusing on your own development or endeavours and don't condescend or point your judging finger towards me which is not helpful in any way and not really appreciated.
I'm looking for advice and not being told what to do thank you very much.
Namaste!
Advice is contributing counsel on what actions to take.
You're being given advice.
You're choosing to not take it.
if you don't take the advice, you won't make the progress you could.
An attachment to Buddhism, is neither a Wrong or Unhealthy Attachment.
It is an attachment that is necessary for progress.
Once a specific progress has been made, the attachment can cease.
That's the difference.
If you come onto a Buddhist forum, expect to get Buddhist advice.
If you seek Buddhist advice, then by that virtue, we would expect you to follow it in Buddhist fashion.
If you don't like what's being said to you, feel free to ignore it and seek elsewhere.
And to be blunt, as a Moderator, I do exactly need to know what you're doing here.
Make no mistake; that's Completely part of my job.
I follow advice which I choose and belief to be helpful, and I can judge that based on my own personal experience, thoughts and realizations. You don't have to make that decision for me.
You say:
Either you want to learn about Buddhism and incorporate its tenets into your life, or you just want to challenge Buddhism with your own "Ignorant" preconceptions..."
I must give credit where credit is due for this demonstrates a fine psychological tactic of devalidating people. The way of defining everything with labels and stereotypes as if that has any significant relevance to the actual point. It's most effective in creating the notion that it really is all that simple. But really in the end it is nothing more than juggling words with negative associations or assumptions to achieve de-validation.
All you are actually saying is "This thing is right and since Woah isnt practicing this thing that is right, and doesn't follow this thing that is right, and disputes everything he chooses to see as disputable (our thing that is right), I don't know what he (wrong) is doing here (where all is right) Either you want to learn our thing and our way or you are here to challenge us with the wrong way.
Separation and ego, beautifully demonstrated in this "us vs them" scenario, as if it was this simple, the nature of everything containing of 2 choices.
This defining, of course in the very introduction is nicely applied and I will mark the labels with +
"Given that Woah93 isn't +Buddhist+, and doesn't actually follow +Buddhism+, and disputes +everything+ he chooses to see as disputable, even though it demonstrably isn't"
What I actually said was:
And
As if that wasn't enough, you enter into this theatre of entertainment and spectacle a nice touch of protecting your point by degrading the whole of my motive into, and I quote...
How is that advice? That is personal commentary and observation filled with ridicule, judgement and projection. Nice moderator.
So, let's get to the crux of the matter: What do you dispute about the 4NT, and why?
What can you find in them that to you is inaccurate?
Bear in mind, the Word 'Noble'. This, in this context, means 'indisputable'. So your comment about laws changing and fluxing doesn't apply, and hasn't, for over 2500 years. Laws and truths may change, but the 4 Noble Truths do not and never have.
And nowhere, in Buddhism, is anyone either encouraged or taught 'blind obedience'. Quite the opposite, in fact.
As I said: This is a Buddhist forum.
Your motives for being here should entail expanding your knowledge and understanding of Buddhism, what it teaches, why and what it means.
If you have ulterior motives, there are other philosophical forums you can go to. And, I might add, this forum is just about the most tolerant and accepting of any questions, comments and investigations. I can think of at least 2 other forums from which you might have been excluded long before now.
I'm just doing my job.
Perhaps you may also like to read this introductory post from the Founder, just to help clarify things.
The 4 noble truths may be indisputable but definitions, interpretations and present culture certainly are. And you can colour the 4 noble truths in a lot of ways, and I colour it differently than you (Buddhism) choose to do it. I don't understand the significance when just asking for advice in the buddhist sense that comes to having different views on things.
I'm just looking for advice from buddhist members with more knowledge than I have about buddhism, does that make me need to conform to every interpretation of it to justify coming to this forum?
No; but it does mean viewing the 4 Noble Truths through the eyes of Buddhist teaching, rather than any extraneous interpretation you may deem fit to put upon them.
The 4 Noble Truths were the subject of the very first teaching the Buddha ever gave, at Deer Park; they form the fundamental grounding basis for every other teaching he gave: It all comes back to these truths and the 8Fold path. Every subsequent teaching hinges from, and radiates from this.
This is why to put your own slant, interpretation and 'pick and choose' practice onto it, is inappropriate and unwise.
The truths are Noble for a reason. Rather than tell me that you feel free to interpret and take them as you wish, it would be more fitting to study them in depth and seek to fully understand why the 2nd Noble Truth is so appropriate to your original question.
This is why I said:
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But the 4 Noble Truths are a Buddhist teaching, and there is broad agreement as to their meaning across the Buddhist traditions. It's probably best to start by getting a good understanding of what that meaning is.