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Recently saw 'Starred Up' a particularly brutal and violent film, brilliant acting, about a young offender who knows only anger, frustration and violence. Quite interesting for me as the screen writer worked in the same prison as me.
. . . however if you want a solution then after the fiction watch the documentary 'Dharma Brothers'. Wonderful film. We are all in prison. Even those on death row, which is all of us, can be freed . . .
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Learning from past mistakes....?
Tragic when you think that a young boy aged 8, stealing a slice of bread - not even a whole loaf! - was flogged and deported.... That was crime enough, in those days....
@federica said:
On TV there are programmes such a 'UK Border Force' Or 'Border Control' and other such programmes dealing with different nations' methods of watching who comes in and why....
Australia is particularly harsh on those who have had criminal convictions, of any kind, and have served time. In many cases, even though the person may appear to be an entirely reformed character, done their time and served their sentences (Paying their dues, as it were) Australian Immigration officials will still see fit to exclude the person as a 'possible danger to the public and Australian way of life'.
Actions bear consequences, and they are not always exonerated and cancelled out by legal procedure, punishment and the application of the law.
True enough and wrong enough.
It speaks ill of our society, where on one hand we "let them off the hook' and with the other continue to punish, even though their so-called deby to society is paid. We convict without trial. We ignore thcourst we establish. We never let go.
We are hypocrites. We dabble in justice like children playing cowboys and indians. We should be ashamed.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I certainly don't condone the Australian attitude, in case anyone is wondering.... I merely recounted the programme content.
0
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
It is a shame he totally wasted his life as he did. As sad as it is, he was part of taking someone else's life. A society has a right to protect itself.
@yagr Write to NY Times columnist Nicholas Kristoff. He writes about human trafficking around the world and in the US, and other human rights issues. As the childhood victim of trafficking, your wife is a human rights case. Her case illustrates how trafficking can set a life on a trajectory that leads to the criminal justice system, and further hardship and injustice, which can become a vicious circle.
Kristoff not only writes about the issue in general, he profiles individual stories. If he chooses to spotlight your wife in one of his columns, you can be assured, wheels would be set in motion. There would be a ripple effect that could, in time, lead to a happy ending. I'm sure you can get his email address off the NY Times website. You may be able to find some of his articles on trafficking on his blog, or maybe by doing a search on the Times website, or by doing a Google search.
Sorry, just because you're not 18 doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions. An innocent girl will never live to the age that her killer will. Whatever one thinks of the shortcomings of criminal justice, the most basic task of the penal system is to protect society from violent offenders like him.
There is no law against hiring felons so they can improve their lives, but if considered from the business owner's standpoint, that is a lot of unnecessary risk to assume especially when people of equal or greater work ethics are seeking employment with no such baggage.
On the other hand, society has an interest in helping discharged former criminals rehabilitate themselves, and in decreasing recidivism.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@Frozen_Paratrooper: What makes humanity 'humane' is that there is this impulse in some to take that risk because it is the moral thing to do.
The general attitude (the one you opined above) is that the risk is not worth it.
That is very easy to say if you have never been on the other side. There are generations of people on the 'felon' side and the 'disabled' side because it is that damn impossible to get out -- based on the general attitude that it's not worth the risk. What damn risk, exactly? Might have to RELATE to a felon? ARGH, I hate it when that happens!
@Frozen_Paratrooper said:
Sorry, just because you're not 18 doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions. An innocent girl will never live to the age that her killer will. Whatever one thinks of the shortcomings of criminal justice, the most basic task of the penal system is to protect society from violent offenders like him.
There is no law against hiring felons so they can improve their lives, but if considered from the business owner's standpoint, that is a lot of unnecessary risk to assume especially when people of equal or greater work ethics are seeking employment with no such baggage.
From a practical standpoint, I agree with both points.
In re the second, I had a nephew who went to prison for 2 years. I was never told the reason, but I rather suspect it was involvement in serious drugs. He was about 20 (give or take) at the time. From then on until I lost track of him, he could never hold a job. He was a very good cook...restaurant quality. If he was honest on his application, he didn't get the job. If he lied, sooner or later the employer always found out and then fired him. Was it unfair? Yes. But, as FP said, who is more deserving of a job -- a felon or a kid that kept his nose clean and did all the right things in life.
I remember one time my nephew saying to me, "Life is so unfair." My response was, "Actually it was fair. You knew what the law was. You knew what was right and wrong. You chose to do what was wrong and you broke the law. Now you are suffering from karma."
@Hamsaka said:
Frozen_Paratrooper: What makes humanity 'humane' is that there is this impulse in some to take that risk because it is the moral thing to do.
The general attitude (the one you opined above) is that the risk is not worth it.
That is very easy to say if you have never been on the other side. There are generations of people on the 'felon' side and the 'disabled' side because it is that damn impossible to get out -- based on the general attitude that it's not worth the risk. What damn risk, exactly? Might have to RELATE to a felon? ARGH, I hate it when that happens!
Are you really comparing being disabled to being a felon? I don't understand. Could you clarify?
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@vinlyn said:
Are you really comparing being disabled to being a felon? I don't understand. Could you clarify?
Yes I was, probably should have been more clear, so yes; they are comparable in terms of society's weakened members, those with fewer personal resources with which to compete in what is basically a huge marketplace (modern society). They are both minority groups in that same way -- in the context of what I was saying to FrozenParatrooper.
@yagr said:
I'm going to hold out on the idea that he knew what the consequences were. Even had he known that, if caught, he would be facing two years - he may have chosen to do the crime. But no one tells you that you never stop paying.
I'm not sure I agree...unless you are talking about someone totally naive. Gee, just watch movies and television and you'll see that theme.
I will say one thing...maybe sort of halfway toward what you are saying -- and I saw this as a principal, and later as an "adopted parent": young people have no idea how quickly a bad decision can ruin their lives.
@Hamsaka said:
Frozen_Paratrooper: What makes humanity 'humane' is that there is this impulse in some to take that risk because it is the moral thing to do.
The general attitude (the one you opined above) is that the risk is not worth it.
That is very easy to say if you have never been on the other side. There are generations of people on the 'felon' side and the 'disabled' side because it is that damn impossible to get out -- based on the general attitude that it's not worth the risk. What damn risk, exactly? Might have to RELATE to a felon? ARGH, I hate it when that happens!
Well I've been on the "side" that hires and trains new people. A business's reputation is the most important asset. If you are doing construction or contracting work on people's property, often with children around, hiring felons is not something you want to have to deal with nor is it something you want your customers to know about. So again, costs far outweigh benefits.
Or maybe you as a business owner find what the felon did so heinous, that you would never hire them regardless of how good a worker they might be. This is neither moral or immmoral. If you want to hire felons, no one is stopping you.
Comments
Recently saw 'Starred Up' a particularly brutal and violent film, brilliant acting, about a young offender who knows only anger, frustration and violence. Quite interesting for me as the screen writer worked in the same prison as me.
. . . however if you want a solution then after the fiction watch the documentary 'Dharma Brothers'. Wonderful film. We are all in prison. Even those on death row, which is all of us, can be freed . . .
:wave: .
Which seems ironic from a historical perspective: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-470887/The-founding-fathers-Australia-The-story-convicts-shipped-New-World.html
Learning from past mistakes....?
Tragic when you think that a young boy aged 8, stealing a slice of bread - not even a whole loaf! - was flogged and deported.... That was crime enough, in those days....
True enough and wrong enough.
It speaks ill of our society, where on one hand we "let them off the hook' and with the other continue to punish, even though their so-called deby to society is paid. We convict without trial. We ignore thcourst we establish. We never let go.
We are hypocrites. We dabble in justice like children playing cowboys and indians. We should be ashamed.
I certainly don't condone the Australian attitude, in case anyone is wondering.... I merely recounted the programme content.
@Federica said:
WORD. This is what I mean to say, without the talent for brevity and conciseness
Thank you.
And it IS real, valuable, workable, necessary -- even without the homo sapien 'stamp' of legal approval.
It is a shame he totally wasted his life as he did. As sad as it is, he was part of taking someone else's life. A society has a right to protect itself.
@yagr Write to NY Times columnist Nicholas Kristoff. He writes about human trafficking around the world and in the US, and other human rights issues. As the childhood victim of trafficking, your wife is a human rights case. Her case illustrates how trafficking can set a life on a trajectory that leads to the criminal justice system, and further hardship and injustice, which can become a vicious circle.
Kristoff not only writes about the issue in general, he profiles individual stories. If he chooses to spotlight your wife in one of his columns, you can be assured, wheels would be set in motion. There would be a ripple effect that could, in time, lead to a happy ending. I'm sure you can get his email address off the NY Times website. You may be able to find some of his articles on trafficking on his blog, or maybe by doing a search on the Times website, or by doing a Google search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Kristof
Sorry, just because you're not 18 doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions. An innocent girl will never live to the age that her killer will. Whatever one thinks of the shortcomings of criminal justice, the most basic task of the penal system is to protect society from violent offenders like him.
There is no law against hiring felons so they can improve their lives, but if considered from the business owner's standpoint, that is a lot of unnecessary risk to assume especially when people of equal or greater work ethics are seeking employment with no such baggage.
On the other hand, society has an interest in helping discharged former criminals rehabilitate themselves, and in decreasing recidivism.
@Frozen_Paratrooper: What makes humanity 'humane' is that there is this impulse in some to take that risk because it is the moral thing to do.
The general attitude (the one you opined above) is that the risk is not worth it.
That is very easy to say if you have never been on the other side. There are generations of people on the 'felon' side and the 'disabled' side because it is that damn impossible to get out -- based on the general attitude that it's not worth the risk. What damn risk, exactly? Might have to RELATE to a felon? ARGH, I hate it when that happens!
Conceptually I think you're right.
But when you look at the general public's attitude, I don't think the public is interested.
From a practical standpoint, I agree with both points.
In re the second, I had a nephew who went to prison for 2 years. I was never told the reason, but I rather suspect it was involvement in serious drugs. He was about 20 (give or take) at the time. From then on until I lost track of him, he could never hold a job. He was a very good cook...restaurant quality. If he was honest on his application, he didn't get the job. If he lied, sooner or later the employer always found out and then fired him. Was it unfair? Yes. But, as FP said, who is more deserving of a job -- a felon or a kid that kept his nose clean and did all the right things in life.
I remember one time my nephew saying to me, "Life is so unfair." My response was, "Actually it was fair. You knew what the law was. You knew what was right and wrong. You chose to do what was wrong and you broke the law. Now you are suffering from karma."
Are you really comparing being disabled to being a felon? I don't understand. Could you clarify?
Yes I was, probably should have been more clear, so yes; they are comparable in terms of society's weakened members, those with fewer personal resources with which to compete in what is basically a huge marketplace (modern society). They are both minority groups in that same way -- in the context of what I was saying to FrozenParatrooper.
I'm not sure I agree...unless you are talking about someone totally naive. Gee, just watch movies and television and you'll see that theme.
I will say one thing...maybe sort of halfway toward what you are saying -- and I saw this as a principal, and later as an "adopted parent": young people have no idea how quickly a bad decision can ruin their lives.
Well I've been on the "side" that hires and trains new people. A business's reputation is the most important asset. If you are doing construction or contracting work on people's property, often with children around, hiring felons is not something you want to have to deal with nor is it something you want your customers to know about. So again, costs far outweigh benefits.
Or maybe you as a business owner find what the felon did so heinous, that you would never hire them regardless of how good a worker they might be. This is neither moral or immmoral. If you want to hire felons, no one is stopping you.