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If you really wanna know what I do in such a situation it is the following.
I catch myself wanting to be right and if the other person is not capable of it on their own I then catch her wanting to be right.
So I do both parts.
Then the situation can be folded out the mutual ground discovered and bruises can be avoided as much as possible. Often time is needed.
But it requires work and foresight. Most of all you gotta let go of your own dog in the fight and also keep the other from pinning opinions you do not have on you. And be gentle when lifting the hurt spirit up into view.
@lobster said:
Can you say some more about this please :wave: .
Well cultivation is all about seeing where actions, thoughts, emotions and other mental processes starts, exists and fall away.
To seeing the entire chain of the DO or enough parts of it to be able to stop the attachment from arising.
When you do this for a while the process of stopping bad behavior becomes second nature and then after a while building good behavior also becomes natural.
So that is avoiding evil and cultivating good and in the process the mind becomes clear and unhindered by mental crap and luggage.
All the while a good knowledge of how we function is learnt. And that knowledge can be applied successfully to others since with an uncluttered mind you can more easily "see" the processes in other people as well.
The good and the bad. It is of course easier if you know the person well.
Was that what you wanted to know?
/Victor
EDIT: So catching others is helping them see their shortcomings and helping them build their strengths.
@DhammaDragon said:
Do I want to break the momentary harmony of a nice stroll in nature with my beloved one over a duck?
How far am I willing to go to defend my point, my rightness?
If I had a partner who really thought a duck was a chicken, I'd be concerned about their mental health. I'd be wondering if they might be delusional, and what might they come up with next.
So with all due respect to Ajahn Chah, I don't think the story works very well. Arguing over what type of duck it is would be nearer the point.
And isn't Buddhism supposed to be about seeing things as they really are?
All the while a good knowledge of how we function is learnt. And that knowledge can be applied successfully to others since with an uncluttered mind you can more easily "see" the processes in other people as well.
Exactly so.
As parents we direct the attention of children. As martial artists we direct the aggressive energy of others. As elders we advise the younglins. As perceived newbies we introduce cultural enrichment. As youth we provide stimulation towards progress. As Boddhisatvahs we take the bad karma on ourselves and so on . . .
Well, if I am willing to get into a verbal sparring over a duck, I'll always be finding something to argue over.
I don't want to turn into a sour old hag over petty foibles.
I agree on defending my point over important issues, but other things, I just let them pass.
Social interaction and overall harmony demand a certain level of compromising, not on the big issues, but on the petty issues that don't pose an urging moral dilemma.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@SpinyNorman said:
So a partner appearing to be delusional wouldn't seem like an important issue?
I'm not talking delusion here, as in big, pathological delusion.
I'm talking about tiny everyday situations where defending your point, even if you feel you are right, is not worth it if it jeopardises the harmony of the bigger picture.
I've been married for fifteen years going to sixteen and known my husband for almost twenty-five.
I have passed up many situations where I felt I was right, and so has he.
I remember many situations where I could have walked out the door in a huff.
They would not have been worth it.
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
All of these conceptual ideas seem to have a certain line that when crossed turns the argument on it's butt.
We can say there is no actual proving of anything but try to get water to freeze at ten degrees centigrade.
Duck and chicken are concepts. So are race, religion, political beliefs, how to bring up kids etc. Most things are just not worth fighting over. The mind creates these concepts and then starts creating problems when there wasn't one in the first place.
Case 29 (of the Gateless Gate Collection): Huineng's flag
Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, "The flag is moving."
The other replied, "The wind is moving."
Huineng overheard this. He said, "Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving."
@pegembara said:
Duck and chicken are concepts. So are race, religion, political beliefs, how to bring up kids etc. Most things are just not worth fighting over.
But why take it to the extreme. Pointing out what is correct/accurate. or teaching someone something, or encouraging them to expand their horizons -- are not "fighting over" things.
@vinlyn - Let's suggest that you have twenty years left. My doctors tell me that I have two years left. My father in law has advanced stage cancer and has just been given two days to live.
Which one of us has sufficient time to waste on such things?
I would first tell you that the idea that I have 20 years left is very, very far from reality.
But, while one is still able, I believe there is a great deal still to learn and always a possibility of expanding horizons. The alternative is to just sit around and wait to die...and if that's all one is doing, then they will die all the sooner.
I agree that chickens and ducks are silly things to fight about but the way of the Dhamma is:
To avoid evil, cultivate what is good and to cleanse our minds.
Right?
Right. With emphasis on "OUR" minds. Rather than others minds.
It is their own journey as my path is my own.
In which case, they can determine for themselves when a duck is a duck - or more serious matters. My apologies for the poker analogy. I realize not everyone plays poker but it's what I know:
Let's say you make one particular error when you play poker and so do I. My error is not check raising when I have multiple players in the hand and I am drawing to the best hand with eight or more outs. This situation comes up once every 75 hands or so.
Your particular error is that you throw away a royal flush every single time you get one. If you were to play every hand possible, this would only occur once every 649,740 hands.
Your error is more severe than mine because the royal flush can never be beat. And yet, my mistake is more costly because the frequency with which it happens is so much greater. Even though I may only lose a dollar each time I fail to raise, I do it 8,663 times to each of your mistakes.
Likewise, not knowing the difference between a chicken and a duck isn't going to come up very often. On the other hand, the opportunity to choose peace over conflict happens a lot.
What good is it to help others keep holding on to a lie if you know it for a lie?
Though this presupposes that I am right every time I "know" something, which life has not shown me to be true... I've found that when I am not in conflict, my mind is more quiet. A quiet mind tends to see through illusions (lies) better. Perhaps allowing them to discover for themselves is actually helping others.
Good to know we agree on the cleanse our minds bit but if you have a point with the poker anology please do state is more explicitly because I do not understand how that applies to the quote?
Though this presupposes that I am right every time I "know" something, which life has not shown me to be true... I've found that when I am not in conflict, my mind is more quiet. A quiet mind tends to see through illusions (lies) better.
You are actually right every time you "know" something. That is how human minds work. Of course 2 min later what you knew earlier is pudding and you have a new "truth" to cling to. This is the working of the mind as I mentioned I think?
The Anatta principal states that there is nothing more tangible than that.
When the mind is free of the hindrances then it is clear and best able to function objectively. This is the benefit of cultivation. The form of it you have glimpsed is equanimity. This is the Brahma Vihara I favor and am naturally drawn to.
Perhaps allowing them to discover for themselves is actually helping others.
The key word is perhaps I think? It is impossible to foretell the future so the only thing left is to make the best choice from what we know now.
And as with your poker statistics the situation when feeding a lie is better than telling the truth is a very minor occurrence imo.
Like when a dying person chooses to believe their relatives do not want to visit out of some unforeseen misfortune rather that they just do not care.
Even in this case I think I would rather keep silent than lie outright.
So in the general route telling the truth is the best choice. Or saying nothing. But never lying. If you disagree then give me some examples from real life that happens often in which case it is better to lie please?
@robot said:
I can be happy with what I get. So long as I realize that that happiness is temporary.
Same applies to people. Keep the expectations realistic and I won't be disappointed. >Enjoy their good qualities and tolerate the bad ones.
Expect them to get sick and die. Expect to be unhappy when it happens, but try to remember that unhappiness is temporary.
So, realizing the truth of impermanence will prevent unhappiness,
Correct
will I be continually disappointed and unhappy when that lack of unhappiness turns out to be impermanent?
@Victorious said:
/Victor You are actually right every time you "know" something.
"Sorry darling, I think you must be right."
She is actually right every time she "knows" something too. That is how human minds work. Of course 2 min later what she knew earlier is pudding and she has a new "truth" to cling to. This is the working of the mind...
The Anatta principal states that there is nothing more tangible than that.
I think you were right, which is why I borrowed your words. I actually agree with you on lying - I just don't see this as a case of lying. Really... I am not this form. When I look at the question, "Who am I?" I think consciousness, I do not think of my body. If I am not my body, then a duck is not its body or its quack. It too is consciousness wrapped up in a ducks outer garments for this ride round the wheel.
Perhaps it is more true that whatever is going "Quack!" is not a duck just as it is more true that I am not my outer garments. Convoluted? Perhaps. Worth it? I think so for the sake of peace.
More and more, I find myself interacting with people and animals as if they are little balls of consciousness or energy of which I am part. I try to leave each with a higher level of energy than they started when we began whatever interaction we are having. Raising the energy of a system that I am intrinsically a part of, raises me. In fact, arguing with her about the duck feels like arguing with myself... and it so doesn't matter.
As for the poker analogy, funny - it made perfect sense in my head. I just re-read it though and had to stop and figure out what I was saying.
Basically it's this: It was suggested that the duck error was a symptom of a delusional state and hence serious. I was simply suggesting that be that as it may be - how many times can this possibly come up vs how many opportunities do we have to sow a little piece of peace.
Trungpa Rinpoche taught three Lords of Materialism: materials, beliefs, and states of mind. This thread is about the Lord of Beliefs. If someone is interested this is in one of Pema Chodron's CDs which is absolutely wonderful.
@SpinyNorman said:
I think they're just labels. A concept would be "chicken tastes nicer than duck".
No they are not! They are concepts!! Labels are concepts too.
Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, "The flag is moving."
The other replied, "The wind is moving."
Huineng overheard this. He said, "Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving."
This is an account of a young woman who faced death in a German concentration camp during WW2 recounted by Viktor Frankl, a concentration camp survivor. Instead of reacting in fear and horror, she realised something transcendent.
Perhaps there came a day for some of us when we saw the
same film again, or a similar one. But by then other pic
tures may have simultaneously unrolled before one's inner
eye; pictures of people who attained much more in their
lives than a sentimental film could show. Some details of a
particular man's inner greatness may have come to one's
mind, like the story of the young woman whose death I
witnessed in a concentration camp. It is a simple story.
There is little to tell and it may sound as if I had invented
it; but to me it seems like a poem.
This young woman knew that she would die in the next
few days. But when I talked to her she was cheerful in spite
of this knowledge. "I am grateful that fate has hit me so
hard," she told me. "In my former life I was spoiled and
did not take spiritual accomplishments seriously." Pointing
through the window of the hut, she said, "This tree here is
the only friend I have in my loneliness." Through that
window she could see just one branch of a chestnut tree,
and on the branch were two blossoms. "I often talk to this
tree," she said to me. I was startled and didn't quite know
how to take her words. Was she delirious? Did she have
occasional hallucinations? Anxiously I asked her if the tree
replied. "Yes." What did it say to her? She answered, "It
said to me, 'I am here—I am here—I am life, eternal life.' "
Man's Search for Meaning
Viktor E. Frankl
Tell me who were the deluded ones. The Nazis, their victims or this young woman?
@yagr said:
When I look at the question, "Who am I?" I think consciousness, I do not think of my body. If I am not my body, then a duck is not its body or its quack.
Still when watching your self. it is obvious that many mental processes have their seat in the body. Have you noticed? Like hunger of course but also happiness, sorrow and anxiety.
If not then I recommend the following exercise.
Calm the body and breath.
Notice the tension in your nose and throat. Also the muscles in your neck and shoulders. Note how they change during a breath, in and out. Just before a inbreath, even before the outbreath is complete the entire respiratory system switches from breathing out mode to breathing in mode. And then at the very end of the inbreath the opposite occurs.
Now after an outbreath. Refrain from breathing in and watch how the desire/panic to breath in grows and watch from where it emanates. Do you see how the body is not only the vessel in which consciousness presides but also deeply involved in the process that leads to it?
Give it some time and a couple of tries. Remember to start breathing before you pass out. .
The next step is naturally to keep yourself from breathing out and watching the desire to breath out grow. The body is not stupid. .
I am not trying to annoy you by refuting what you say but normally the body is part of the process of the "I" experience according to the DO. For most people that description is just untested theory. Above is the experiment to confirm a part of it.
Hope it helps.
/Victor
EDIT: As for sowing peace it is a nice thought. But again I do not think any lasting happiness can be grounded on deception of any form. I think that is where the politicians go wrong.
Just because the value of Truth and Lies are made in the human mind it does not mean that they are not real. For people they are real. That is what I meant.
@pegembara said:
This is an account of a young woman who faced death in a German concentration camp during WW2 recounted by Viktor Frankl, a concentration camp survivor. Instead of reacting in fear and horror, she realised something transcendent.
Tell me who were the deluded ones. The Nazis, their victims or this young woman?
Thank you, @Victorious. When I read the post I thought it was really a stretch to come to the conclusion that @pegembara came to. Sort of like the Hollywood movie where you have to have some sort of heartwarming ending.
Me too but you must agree that at least her ending came more peacefully than otherwise.
@vinlyn
What conclusion was that? That she realized nibbana ie. stopped the process of fabrication?
"This is peaceful, this is excellent, namely the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction".
In fact she appeared to have found something else.
@pegembara said:
What conclusion was that? That she realized nibbana ie. stopped the process of fabrication?
"This is peaceful, this is excellent, namely the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction".
In fact she appeared to have found something else.
I am referring to your last statement in the post: "Tell me who were the deluded ones. The Nazis, their victims or this young woman?"
Deluded about what? Who had control? Who held the power of life and death at that point?
And the statement: "Anxiously I asked her if the tree
replied. "Yes." What did it say to her? She answered, "It
said to me, 'I am here—I am here—I am life, eternal life.' "
Finding oneself in a concentration camp and sentenced to death when one's life is only beginning, is a delusional enough situation to send the poor woman reeling for some meaning of sorts.
In such extreme circumstances, life takes on a whole new dimension.
We onlookers will never understand what goes through someone's head in such moments.
That's much more preferable to the alternative of wailing, screaming and pleading for mercy which isn't forthcoming. That would be falling into the narrative of the deluded oppressors and becoming distraught by anger, fear and delusion. One gets pulled into their world of hatred and delusion. The best way to go would be to transcend this "world" that those crazy ones try to impose. In other words, don't follow these people to the hell of their making.
In such situations it is more important to be happy(peaceful) than being in the "right"(righteous).
That is what it means by being hit by one arrow.
"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
Comments
If you really wanna know what I do in such a situation it is the following.
I catch myself wanting to be right and if the other person is not capable of it on their own I then catch her wanting to be right.
So I do both parts.
Then the situation can be folded out the mutual ground discovered and bruises can be avoided as much as possible. Often time is needed.
But it requires work and foresight. Most of all you gotta let go of your own dog in the fight and also keep the other from pinning opinions you do not have on you. And be gentle when lifting the hurt spirit up into view.
/Victor
Can you say some more about this please :wave: .
skillful action?
Well cultivation is all about seeing where actions, thoughts, emotions and other mental processes starts, exists and fall away.
To seeing the entire chain of the DO or enough parts of it to be able to stop the attachment from arising.
When you do this for a while the process of stopping bad behavior becomes second nature and then after a while building good behavior also becomes natural.
So that is avoiding evil and cultivating good and in the process the mind becomes clear and unhindered by mental crap and luggage.
All the while a good knowledge of how we function is learnt. And that knowledge can be applied successfully to others since with an uncluttered mind you can more easily "see" the processes in other people as well.
The good and the bad. It is of course easier if you know the person well.
Was that what you wanted to know?
/Victor
EDIT: So catching others is helping them see their shortcomings and helping them build their strengths.
Even "Rightness" has its nuances.
Do I want to break the momentary harmony of a nice stroll in nature with my beloved one over a duck?
How far am I willing to go to defend my point, my rightness?
Is it worth it?
If I had a partner who really thought a duck was a chicken, I'd be concerned about their mental health. I'd be wondering if they might be delusional, and what might they come up with next.
So with all due respect to Ajahn Chah, I don't think the story works very well. Arguing over what type of duck it is would be nearer the point.
And isn't Buddhism supposed to be about seeing things as they really are?
Exactly so.
As parents we direct the attention of children. As martial artists we direct the aggressive energy of others. As elders we advise the younglins. As perceived newbies we introduce cultural enrichment. As youth we provide stimulation towards progress. As Boddhisatvahs we take the bad karma on ourselves and so on . . .
Kia Ora
http://yinyana.tumblr.com/day/2013/09/12
That I'm a saint.
Well, if I am willing to get into a verbal sparring over a duck, I'll always be finding something to argue over.
I don't want to turn into a sour old hag over petty foibles.
I agree on defending my point over important issues, but other things, I just let them pass.
Social interaction and overall harmony demand a certain level of compromising, not on the big issues, but on the petty issues that don't pose an urging moral dilemma.
Oh good grief....
Whatever.
I am happy that I don't have to be right about ducks with hubby.
I am happy and I'm right.
That's it. :rant: ..
So a partner appearing to be delusional wouldn't seem like an important issue?
I'm not talking delusion here, as in big, pathological delusion.
I'm talking about tiny everyday situations where defending your point, even if you feel you are right, is not worth it if it jeopardises the harmony of the bigger picture.
I've been married for fifteen years going to sixteen and known my husband for almost twenty-five.
I have passed up many situations where I felt I was right, and so has he.
I remember many situations where I could have walked out the door in a huff.
They would not have been worth it.
All of these conceptual ideas seem to have a certain line that when crossed turns the argument on it's butt.
We can say there is no actual proving of anything but try to get water to freeze at ten degrees centigrade.
Duck and chicken are concepts. So are race, religion, political beliefs, how to bring up kids etc. Most things are just not worth fighting over. The mind creates these concepts and then starts creating problems when there wasn't one in the first place.
I think they're just labels. A concept would be "chicken tastes nicer than duck".
But why take it to the extreme. Pointing out what is correct/accurate. or teaching someone something, or encouraging them to expand their horizons -- are not "fighting over" things.
@vinlyn - Let's suggest that you have twenty years left. My doctors tell me that I have two years left. My father in law has advanced stage cancer and has just been given two days to live.
Which one of us has sufficient time to waste on such things?
I would first tell you that the idea that I have 20 years left is very, very far from reality.
But, while one is still able, I believe there is a great deal still to learn and always a possibility of expanding horizons. The alternative is to just sit around and wait to die...and if that's all one is doing, then they will die all the sooner.
I agree that chickens and ducks are silly things to fight about but the way of the Dhamma is:
To avoid evil, cultivate what is good and to cleanse our minds.
Right?
Right. With emphasis on "OUR" minds. Rather than others minds.
In which case, they can determine for themselves when a duck is a duck - or more serious matters. My apologies for the poker analogy. I realize not everyone plays poker but it's what I know:
Let's say you make one particular error when you play poker and so do I. My error is not check raising when I have multiple players in the hand and I am drawing to the best hand with eight or more outs. This situation comes up once every 75 hands or so.
Your particular error is that you throw away a royal flush every single time you get one. If you were to play every hand possible, this would only occur once every 649,740 hands.
Your error is more severe than mine because the royal flush can never be beat. And yet, my mistake is more costly because the frequency with which it happens is so much greater. Even though I may only lose a dollar each time I fail to raise, I do it 8,663 times to each of your mistakes.
Likewise, not knowing the difference between a chicken and a duck isn't going to come up very often. On the other hand, the opportunity to choose peace over conflict happens a lot.
Though this presupposes that I am right every time I "know" something, which life has not shown me to be true... I've found that when I am not in conflict, my mind is more quiet. A quiet mind tends to see through illusions (lies) better. Perhaps allowing them to discover for themselves is actually helping others.
The wise man knows what he "knows", and also knows what he doesn't know.
Well yeah, who doesn't know that?
j/k
Oh, it's a very common affliction.
When it comes to my mind, I'm gonna need a bigger bar of soap....
Good to know we agree on the cleanse our minds bit but if you have a point with the poker anology please do state is more explicitly because I do not understand how that applies to the quote?
You are actually right every time you "know" something. That is how human minds work. Of course 2 min later what you knew earlier is pudding and you have a new "truth" to cling to. This is the working of the mind as I mentioned I think?
The Anatta principal states that there is nothing more tangible than that.
When the mind is free of the hindrances then it is clear and best able to function objectively. This is the benefit of cultivation. The form of it you have glimpsed is equanimity. This is the Brahma Vihara I favor and am naturally drawn to.
The key word is perhaps I think? It is impossible to foretell the future so the only thing left is to make the best choice from what we know now.
And as with your poker statistics the situation when feeding a lie is better than telling the truth is a very minor occurrence imo.
Like when a dying person chooses to believe their relatives do not want to visit out of some unforeseen misfortune rather that they just do not care.
Even in this case I think I would rather keep silent than lie outright.
So in the general route telling the truth is the best choice. Or saying nothing. But never lying. If you disagree then give me some examples from real life that happens often in which case it is better to lie please?
Because I cannot really see it.
/Victor
Correct
No
"Sorry darling, I think you must be right."
I think you were right, which is why I borrowed your words. I actually agree with you on lying - I just don't see this as a case of lying. Really... I am not this form. When I look at the question, "Who am I?" I think consciousness, I do not think of my body. If I am not my body, then a duck is not its body or its quack. It too is consciousness wrapped up in a ducks outer garments for this ride round the wheel.
Perhaps it is more true that whatever is going "Quack!" is not a duck just as it is more true that I am not my outer garments. Convoluted? Perhaps. Worth it? I think so for the sake of peace.
More and more, I find myself interacting with people and animals as if they are little balls of consciousness or energy of which I am part. I try to leave each with a higher level of energy than they started when we began whatever interaction we are having. Raising the energy of a system that I am intrinsically a part of, raises me. In fact, arguing with her about the duck feels like arguing with myself... and it so doesn't matter.
As for the poker analogy, funny - it made perfect sense in my head.
I just re-read it though and had to stop and figure out what I was saying.
Basically it's this: It was suggested that the duck error was a symptom of a delusional state and hence serious. I was simply suggesting that be that as it may be - how many times can this possibly come up vs how many opportunities do we have to sow a little piece of peace.
Much as we like to convince ourselves otherwise, in life and cyber reality, this job is taken . . . It is not ours . . .
Trungpa Rinpoche taught three Lords of Materialism: materials, beliefs, and states of mind. This thread is about the Lord of Beliefs. If someone is interested this is in one of Pema Chodron's CDs which is absolutely wonderful.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Three-Lords-Of-Materialism/dp/B000QWHAFU
or
http://pemachodronfoundation.org/buy-cds-dvds/
Ironically these CDs cost quite a lot considering that they are about materialism!! I received them as one of my most treasured gifts one Christmas.
No they are not! They are concepts!! Labels are concepts too.
This is an account of a young woman who faced death in a German concentration camp during WW2 recounted by Viktor Frankl, a concentration camp survivor. Instead of reacting in fear and horror, she realised something transcendent.
Tell me who were the deluded ones. The Nazis, their victims or this young woman?
Still when watching your self. it is obvious that many mental processes have their seat in the body. Have you noticed? Like hunger of course but also happiness, sorrow and anxiety.
If not then I recommend the following exercise.
Calm the body and breath.
Notice the tension in your nose and throat. Also the muscles in your neck and shoulders. Note how they change during a breath, in and out. Just before a inbreath, even before the outbreath is complete the entire respiratory system switches from breathing out mode to breathing in mode. And then at the very end of the inbreath the opposite occurs.
Now after an outbreath. Refrain from breathing in and watch how the desire/panic to breath in grows and watch from where it emanates. Do you see how the body is not only the vessel in which consciousness presides but also deeply involved in the process that leads to it?
Give it some time and a couple of tries. Remember to start breathing before you pass out.
.
The next step is naturally to keep yourself from breathing out and watching the desire to breath out grow. The body is not stupid.
.
I am not trying to annoy you by refuting what you say but normally the body is part of the process of the "I" experience according to the DO. For most people that description is just untested theory. Above is the experiment to confirm a part of it.
Hope it helps.
/Victor
EDIT: As for sowing peace it is a nice thought. But again I do not think any lasting happiness can be grounded on deception of any form. I think that is where the politicians go wrong.
Just because the value of Truth and Lies are made in the human mind it does not mean that they are not real. For people they are real. That is what I meant.
Frankl I would say all three.
But it was a very touching story all the same.
Thank you, @Victorious. When I read the post I thought it was really a stretch to come to the conclusion that @pegembara came to. Sort of like the Hollywood movie where you have to have some sort of heartwarming ending.
Me too but you must agree that at least her ending came more peacefully than otherwise.
@vinlyn
What conclusion was that? That she realized nibbana ie. stopped the process of fabrication?
"This is peaceful, this is excellent, namely the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction".
In fact she appeared to have found something else.
"This is peaceful, this is excellent, namely the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction".
In fact she appeared to have found something else.
I am referring to your last statement in the post: "Tell me who were the deluded ones. The Nazis, their victims or this young woman?"
Deluded about what? Who had control? Who held the power of life and death at that point?
And the statement: "Anxiously I asked her if the tree
replied. "Yes." What did it say to her? She answered, "It
said to me, 'I am here—I am here—I am life, eternal life.' "
Gee, that sounds more Christian than anything.
I think you're muddling up perceiving ( labelling ) and conceiving ( what we think about our perceptions, how they relate to "I am" ).
Finding oneself in a concentration camp and sentenced to death when one's life is only beginning, is a delusional enough situation to send the poor woman reeling for some meaning of sorts.
In such extreme circumstances, life takes on a whole new dimension.
We onlookers will never understand what goes through someone's head in such moments.
Yepp much better!
I hope I can be as clear minded as her when the end comes.
/Victor
That's much more preferable to the alternative of wailing, screaming and pleading for mercy which isn't forthcoming. That would be falling into the narrative of the deluded oppressors and becoming distraught by anger, fear and delusion. One gets pulled into their world of hatred and delusion. The best way to go would be to transcend this "world" that those crazy ones try to impose. In other words, don't follow these people to the hell of their making.
In such situations it is more important to be happy(peaceful) than being in the "right"(righteous).
That is what it means by being hit by one arrow.