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Will you pay for sex?
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Not necessarily. The precept against sexual misconduct reads:
An illegal prostitute would be "those who entail punishments", as both the woman and oneself would be subject to punishment for engaging in such behavior, thereby breaking the precept.
I was replying only because I thought you were implying that breaking any law was automatically breaking a Precept.
However, in re the above post, are you saying that in a place where prostitution was not illegal one would not be breaking a Precept, but in another place where prostitution is illegal they would be breaking a Precept?
I was saying that if it's illegal, you could definitely say it's a broken precept. If it's not illegal, you could definitely say it's unskillful.
It would've been illegal to hide Jews in Germany during WW2, however given what was happening to Jews at the time, I doubt if breaking this law would entail breaking a precept.
We can't use laws to define what's right or wrong.
I do see the difference here though; having sex with a prostitute would not be motivated by compassion (not usually anyway).
Thank you, Tosh. That was the point I was leading to, although I was thinking of the Fugitive Slave Law in the United States as a good example (as well). Or peaceful protests in the Civil Rights struggle.
There are times when laws and morality are congruent, but many other times when they are not.
Speaking of laws, prostitution is illegal in the UK, but obviously it still happens. But because it's illegal, it's fringe. There's no regulation like they have in other countries where by law, participants have to wear condoms and the sex workers have to undergo regular health checks. And they pay tax on their income.
Making prostitution illegal doesn't stop it, it actually makes it more dangerous for the customers, and especially for the sex workers.
What makes it a broken precept is sexual conduct with "those who entail punishments". Because the law is what establishes the punishment, in this instance, the law is what would clearly make it a broken precept.
Of course this has nothing whatsoever to do with any other laws. Jews, peaceful protests, etc, etc. are completely irrelevant when considering only the question of sexual misconduct, prostitutes and keeping this particular precept. Context is important!
So if having sex with someone could cause them to be punished, it breaks the precept, which makes sense to me.
Seeker242, what we have been trying to clarify with you is the earlier statement you made: "If it's illegal, you could definitely say it's a broken precept. If it's not illegal, you could definitely say it's unskillful."
We were trying to figure out if that statement was firm as a stand-alone statement, or whether you were applying it to prostitution only.
And I think we are uncomfortable with mixing moral Precepts with "the law".
I thought I was speaking about prostitution only, as that is the only thing that I mentioned to begin with.
Thanks for the clarification.
The human condition makes for the potential of abuse within all relationships. Add sex and a power inequity between the participants and you have a recipe to create some pretty serious suffering.
It is hard to describe anything that does not have it's associated costs.
I guess the question for me is not whether there whether those costs actually encourage compassion, love or wisdom... or greed hate or delusion.
I have no problem with it, if it is consensual. For some people (disabled, socially awkward) it may be the only sex they ever get.
I personally wouldn't pay for it. I just don't care enough or have such a deep-seated need that I'll spend money on sex. I don't condemn those who do. However, I do think there are still way too many people who don't understand the extent to which the US has involuntary prostitution, and our (mostly) laws against it don't contain it. I'm not convinced the laws don't make things worse because there is no transparency.
I can't say whether a person who participates is breaking their precepts. I tend to believe that while they are written down, they (the precepts) have a lot more to do with how you interpret them, your tradition, and what is going on within you. I don't think the answer is the same for every person. Only the person involved knows for sure.
There is always a cost/price for sex, financial or otherwise.
People don't choose to be addicted to porn anymore than an alcoholic chooses to be addicted to alcohol. And remember, it's not always men.
Coming from someone who has had issues with this in the past I can relate.
Since I have been able to sort it out I do now have a much better sex life with my wife.
I had an interesting experience yesterday.
I was thinking about this topic while driving through the city I live in. It popped into my head that there was a brothel near the part of town I was in (no, I haven't visited it!!)
When I glanced over to the spot I believed it was in there was a buddhist monk standing right on the central median strip waiting to cross the road.
I have never seen a monk in this city before.
Weird.......maybe he'd been there? ;-)
Look, @Bunks, don't think that I'm being judgmental here.
I have watched the odd porn film or two like anyone else.
Wouldn't be human if I hadn't.
It's just that I have no qualms about sex, never had to pay for it and never have been paid for it.
I can't quite see why people can't relate to sex in a natural way.
Prostitution and a certain area of the porn industry are beyond sex to me.
There is a hidden undertone of humiliation, coertion and lack of self-esteem involved.
They are not about sex anymore.
Any sexual situation where something is being engineered against the free will of an involved person, is not about sex any more.
Apparently in some recent wide-ranging study on the porn viewing habits of women, it was found that the No 2 genre that women watched was male gay porn. It's thought that one of the reasons they like it is because it's genuine, rather than seeing some poor lass flapping about like a fish, surrounded by several blokes.
It's probably the same reason many like amateur porn.
I love that we struggle, at least, with the issue. One of my pet peeves is that forced prostitution is condoned or at least tolerated in some Buddhist countries because, "That's their karma and they must have done something in a past life to deserve it." But really, it just shows people are people everywhere and can justify just about anything.
Many straight men like watching two women having sex. Mirror neurons and all... you place yourself in the scene unintentionally and focus on the person you're attracted to. With two women for a straight man, or two men for a straight woman, there are twice as many people (for you)! It gives the impression of having a 3-way with the two people who are in fact the only ones having sex.
This could be the reason, underneath it all, for the findings of the study.
I like to bring up mirror neurons when people, usually men, make the argument that we have a moral compass against same-sex relationships. Then I bring up how many men get turned on by two women. Destroys their argument. It's no different than watching someone eat food that nauseates you!
Well, during my er, research, I've noticed there's never really any true lesbians in pornography, because sooner or later there's a ring at their door and a plumber turns up.
But in the same study I refer to, the No 1 thing porn genre that women watched was lesbian porn; and this was straight women watching it.
I think many of us - and it seems especially true for women (according to their viewing habits) - that they don't want to see something they may perceive as coercion, or prostitution.
@Tosh Wait you're telling me the Number 1 porn type that straight women watch... is lesbian porn? That blows my mind!
You boys seem to be revelling in your research..
..
Hey hey now, I'm not doing porn research, I'm only reacting to what I'm hearing the findings are.
>
Don't tell me, you're a plumber.....
I couldn't find a link to the survey (and you know what they say about surveys), but this explains it. I hope I've got it right from memory:
you either believe in the law of karma or you dont.
some people are born geniuses and some are born stupid.
if that's not karma, i dont know what is.
There are several views of how Karma works, and after all (although I don't believe in this) the workings of Karma are supposed to be imponderables.
So it's not quite a "you either believe in the law of karma or you don't" situation.
You either believe a deformed child deserved it, or you don't. You either believe a person born into slavery or a low caste deserved it, or you don't. I don't think that's karma. Genetics and chance are why we're born differently (that includes our intelligence). They didn't know about genetics during the Buddha's time or prior, so it makes sense they'd find another cause (actions in a past life) to explain these differences among individuals.
As for your last sentence there, I think you may be right.
Karma is a teaching tool to show us how our own thoughts, speech and actions can either bite us in the ass or set us free... which leads to the Noble Eightfold Path as a way to overcome "suffering habits". It's not about judging people, and that's exactly what Hinduism's version does (hence their caste system).
In answer to the title... no but more out of lack of interest in sex than a product of judgment.
I don't see prostitution as immoral. It is more a matter of how damaging it might be to have it or not have it for all individuals involved. Currently, I am not in a position to discern where the damage could potentially be. It also further complicated by the fact that each individual could be affected by this differently.
I like AW's view on the fact that when you pick up a link in a chain, all the other links will come up as well, depending on how hard you pull on them, due to them being interconnected. Advice: don't link things together, and nothing will arise, other than what is observed. It's simple really!
Pay for sex if you want it that much that there is no other way of having consensual intercourse. However, if you are in a relationship, every consequential aspect that follows is down to you! Really - it's all down to YOUR ACTIONS, so don't try and blame it on anyone else. IT's YOUR FAULT if you are in a loving relationship and pay for sex with someone else - what more can be said on this subject - really!
I like the pornhub debate!
Those who are familiar with my posts know that my wife was forced into prostitution as a child. I've worked with various sex and human trafficking organizations in both the US and abroad (mostly Asia) and have found that most willing prostitutes have been coerced at some point - whether it be physical, psychological or even economic coercion.
Well over 90% of sex workers have been raped or molested as children and almost 25% suffer from DID (dissociative identity disorder aka multiple personality disorder). The range of mental illness is astounding. Perhaps not every prostitute is so affected, but I would not care to guess whether or not I am doing further harm.
which is worse?
paying for a prostitute or lying to get into bed with a non-prostitute?
Lying about what? Saying you don't have AIDs or other STDs when you do? Saying "I'm not married" after slipping the wedding ring off your hand?" Or pretending to be a movie producer who can get her an acting job when in fact you mop floors?
I'm not sure it makes a difference if the woman is a prostitute or not, lying is hurtful. We should, as Buddhists, also hesitate to use someone to satisfy a desire with no consideration for that other person's well being, even if she or he is willing to do so for money. It's not because it's good or bad, but because it's unskillful and not conductive to a clear mind and cultivation of metta.
@Cinorjer -- I think Cook99 means lying, by saying they love the person and stuff like that, perhaps...and all those other lies you mentioned, heh...
![:\](https://newbuddhist.com/plugins/emojiextender/emoji/little/confused.png ":\")