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I think there is a difference between "you are what you think", and "you are because you think".
I think you might be wrongly assuming that you are arguing against the latter.
If I am not thinking, how can I know what I am? Doesn't mean my sense of self disappears does it?
@anataman said:
There is no difference between thinker and thought... It's very important to understand or indeed better know this as the *knower**!
Ok. There is no difference between the seer and seen. I can be blind and deaf and still have a sense of self. Which I think is what Greg is trying to get to. Not entirely sure, but I don't care for the way the conversation has been going.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2014
@Greg911 said:
Read the post I made before the last one. dhammachick is the one that wouldn't let this go.
@robot said:
Ok. There is no difference between the seer and seen. I can be blind and deaf and still have a sense of self.
True. I don't think delusion can be defined in strict black and white terms. This thread is - IMO - becoming like the finger pointing at the moon instead of the moon itself. I don't care much for the tone either.
Edited to add: to be fair though, this thread has held up a big mirror to show how we're all affected by delusion. Certainly mist for the grill for my meditations this week.
If only we can all stop playing with our little "sandcastles" and forget that that is what they are truly.
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.
"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."
"Him I call indeed a Brahmana who, after leaving all bondage to men, has risen above all bondage to the gods, and is free from all and every bondage."
(Dhammapada - verse 417)
@AllbuddhaBound said:
Alright, let me put it this way. If you live in a world of delusion, and are only suspicious it is happening but feel you are helpless over it, can you practice Buddhism?
I think most Buddhists believe they are striving to dispel delusions in their life. What if you dispel what you believe are delusions, but you still cling onto other delusions unaware they are false? For example, what if you feel persecuted when others don't see it? How do you deal with this sense of paranoia if you are convinced it is real?
And what if the persecution is real? Then how does a Buddhist get real?
When you ask "Then you are saying there are no "good" Buddhists ever, anywhere. Including Buddha himself", that would mean that Buddha was paranoid. Not what I was saying at all.
AllbudhaBound, I think this is where awareness practice meets an upward spiral. When we hear, contemplate, and meditate it is like how waves crashing can eventually sculpt rock. That is where we develop the paramitas. Relentless giving. And ethics, patience, and so forth.
@AllbuddhaBound said:
The thing is, not that monks are better than laypersons. And not that Buddhists are superior to other people. The question is, can a person become enlightened and live in a secular world? The standard people in the secular world hold themselves to, does not compare with a life where the only thing you have is the clothes on your back and a bowl to hold other people"s charity.
I think different traditions have different opinions.
Well according to His Holiness the Dalai Lama "Delusions are states of mind which, when they arise within our mental continuum,
leave us disturbed, confused and unhappy.
Therefore, those states of mind which delude or afflict us are called 'delusions' or 'afflictive emotions'."
Comments
I think there is a difference between "you are what you think", and "you are because you think".
I think you might be wrongly assuming that you are arguing against the latter.
If I am not thinking, how can I know what I am? Doesn't mean my sense of self disappears does it?
There is no difference between thinker and thought... It's very important to understand or indeed better know this as the *knower**!
Read the post I made before the last one. dhammachick is the one that wouldn't let this go.
Ok. There is no difference between the seer and seen. I can be blind and deaf and still have a sense of self. Which I think is what Greg is trying to get to. Not entirely sure, but I don't care for the way the conversation has been going.
>
So be the first to let it go.
Ok?
I was
So the threads now been left to go away then!
Nice ending!
Something to contemplate - letting go is sometimes very hard - well done!
True. I don't think delusion can be defined in strict black and white terms. This thread is - IMO - becoming like the finger pointing at the moon instead of the moon itself. I don't care much for the tone either.
Edited to add: to be fair though, this thread has held up a big mirror to show how we're all affected by delusion. Certainly mist for the grill for my meditations this week.
All I can say is that in my attempt to help I have been helped.
Metta
If only we can all stop playing with our little "sandcastles" and forget that that is what they are truly.
Never could
. . . only hiding from my self . . .
. . . and now back to childish superiority . . .
To enter the kingdom of heaven you have to be as a child.
Metta
"Beginner's Mind"
(Dhammapada - verse 417)
Kingdom of Heaven?
A Christian delusion...
Interesting video that relates:
AllbudhaBound, I think this is where awareness practice meets an upward spiral. When we hear, contemplate, and meditate it is like how waves crashing can eventually sculpt rock. That is where we develop the paramitas. Relentless giving. And ethics, patience, and so forth.
I think different traditions have different opinions.
"To quote the Buddha:
"“We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.”
Can behaviors be deluded, or thoughts?"
My teacher has said in a talk that 'thoughts are the only game in town'. That is not identical to the dhamapada translation.
Well according to His Holiness the Dalai Lama
"Delusions are states of mind which, when they arise within our mental continuum,
leave us disturbed, confused and unhappy.
Therefore, those states of mind which delude or afflict us are called 'delusions' or 'afflictive emotions'."
This sutta is worth a read: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.049.than.html
how the blip do i know?