This is something I've been wondering about for awile.
rickyd123
New
If I understand Buddhist beliefs correctly, when I die I'll be reincarnated. What kind of new life I'll have will depend on what kind of life I led. That second part doesn't pertain to my question. What I have a question about is the reincarnation. I believe in reincarnation. I just want to know what Buddhist have to say about it. Do we die and that instant are we reincarnated or do we have an after-life on the other side in Buddhist belief. The way I understand Buddhism we're supposed to correct our problems here in this life. Many people believe that in the after-life we still learn to be better people. I was wondering if Buddhism said anything about an after-life on the other side. I know I read some where about a collective consciousness, but I don't know if that was Buddhism or something else. I think that had to do with reaching enlightenment. I'm not sure. It was a while back. If Buddhist do believe in an after-life are there any good books or websites that go into detail about it. I have my own personal beliefs about the after life from studying and experiencing. That's one of the things I really like about Buddhism. It says listen, learn and find out for yourself what you believe is true.
Comments
First of all, clarify whether you mean reincarnation or rebirth. In some Buddhist quarters, there is a clear distinction.
Secondly, there are supposed 'realms' we end up in, according to the way we have led our lives, and our Mind-state at the moment of death. These are temporary abodes, and we emerge into a new existence there. Many however, (myself included) view these realms as allegorical and they actually indicate a psychological state of mind. States we visit constantly, habitually, at any time. (The big frightening dude is Yama, lord of Death, Guide of the Underworld, and I take tea with him, regularly.)
See also here, particularly number 25.
This though, is probably more detailed and explanatory.
Good words "listen, learn and find out for yourself" -- the ultimate check is your personal experience
Well, I certainly don't speak for every Buddhist when I talk, so these are just some gleanings that you might find helpful or interesting or whatever,
Doctrine of rebirth, or mutli life theory as I've heard it called before, essentially asserts that there is an infinity-continuum of lives.
The past ones already happened and left imprints in our karmic continuums (which some people like to call "soul" but in Buddhism we dismantle this as well)
Then there are future lives ..until reaching nirvana (assuming you exert yourself in that general direction).
And then, in this very instant, is your present life.
One amazing thing is that what we call "lives" is really an abstract notion. When does your life begin? What about your life in the kitchen versus your life in the living room? Is it the same "you" who is alive in the kitchen and then the same "you" who is alive near the fireplace?
We get into a very interesting idea: how many moments fit into a lifetime?
What bookends can we use to delimit a "lifetime"?
well, there is the conventional "this body means this life" and then when your body / support of consciousness changes we call it a new life.
But there is also the utterly experiential side of things. One can consider a life ending and beginning when-ever ones state of mind changes.
Then, with that in mind, perhaps karma fits in more clearly. The array of actions and mental flight and how experiential reality grows and blossoms from there-out.
I recommend you read about the 31 planes of existence or 31 realms.
This page seems good:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html
I also recommend you read about the "wheel of life" or more aptly "the wheel of rebirth"
"Bhava chakra"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavacakra#Overview
Far more interesting than reading about it is actually experiencing recall of your past lives, which many say is possible with effort and continual recollection. As long as one does not lose sight of the ultimate goal of practice, it seems like it could be a fruitful endeavor.
It's all very well to have an interest in rebirth, @rickyd123, since you have the curiosity.
But like any other major religion's theories of an after-life, bear in mind that whatever you will read belongs within the realm of speculation.
I suppose it's okay, as long as it doesn't distract you from being mindful of the way you lead your present life.
If you lead a skillful life here, you could be planting positive seeds for whatever next life there could be.
I have no conclusive ideas about rebirth and future lives.
I have enough homework to do in this one!
Thanks for the comments. They've given me a lot to think about. The links in the first comment didn't work. Just to let you know.
There is a great difference from the way "Old World Buddhists" look at Karma, as compared to most Western Buddhists. OP. the way you described Karma in your original post is sort of the Old World version (e.g., Thailand). I'm not discounting it or making any judgement about which version is correct.
Really. Old world buddhists you say? Not judgmental at all.
You forgot to add Superstitious to the concoction. :#
Old World Superstitious Buddhists. That's how we are normally described.
Rebirth and reincarnation are very tricky subjects - even within buddhist circles - because either there is something to be reborn and reincarnated or there is not, and, if there is something then it must involve Atman, the TRUE SELF, and if there is nothing it is Anatman, or NO SELF - it is very wise, if you want to study buddhism, to also familiarise yourself with hinduism btw as they are pretty much aligned in a way that may seem odd at first but are perfectly squared - also read the UPANISHADS, and study NAGARJUNA , and especially discover the flower garland sutra, these are just my suggestions btw, so please feel free to disregard them like you might disregard that person who opened the door for you that day, when you needed it, you may have said thank you but instantly forgot them.
Is there something in between? Great question Anataman (in an unselfish congratulatory way - N.B. where did the cool emoticons go @Linc - they don't have any real life to them any more do they?) as it points to there being a middle way...
Don't burden yourself with such concepts, at this stage, unless you want to shave your hwead and wear saffron robes. I've spent nearly half my life wrestling with insoluble questions. Some things can be and are known, other can't and won't! When you reach the stage where there appears to be an answer but the solution starts to become stale or appears to become irrational as you pursue it - then you know you are standing on the edge of the unknown, and it will not let you proceed further. It won't!
SO my GIFT to you is this: Wondering is great, as is wandering, but at some point you have to stop doing both, look at what you are finding wonderful, and then look at what you wander in!
Have fun @rickyd123!
I AM!
Being a old world Buddhist. The answer to you question is not so easy.
Well the Theravada claim that the dying person is reborn instantly after death in another body. Tibetan Buddhists speak of a intermediary state before rebirth in a new carnal body.
Both might be right or wrong. Personally I like to look at what the scriptures say and one of those things is this:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.009.than.html
So the being or in Pali the satta is reborn.
Satta in my own language that is related to Pali and sanskrit means animal. It is related to the baser instincts of a being such as desire or craving.
I know I am not supposed to quote scripture here but this is as clear as it gets IMO.
Hope it helps.
Just to clarify. Better to judge from own experience rather than trust scripture!
/Victor
Why are you not supposed to quote scripture here?
I think there is a consensus that quoting scripture in a beginners thread is not the best way to go.
Interpretations of the scriptures normally comes at a more senior level I guess. But me myself I think it works if it is explained in full and arguments over interpretations, which can be pretty confusing for a beginner, are avoided.
/Victor
You jump to a totally wrong conclusion, because I consider myself much more of an Old World Buddhist than a Western Buddhist. All of my experiences in Buddhism -- other than this forum and 1 book -- were in Thailand amidst "old world Buddhism" or in English translations of books written by Thai Theravadan monks. All the Buddhists I know personally are "old world Buddhists". Every monk I have ever conversed with was a Thai Theravadan monk. When I lived in (or visited) Thailand, there was nary a day I didn't spend time in an "old world" Buddhist temple...and I miss it.
Some people must tire themselves out jumping to unwarranted assumptions.
I was just trying to be funny. Sorry dude. Lots.
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Don't get too hung up DOOOD!
rebirth is what you mean from your first sentence. reincarnating would be if your personality transferred over which it doesn't. 'you' won't be in the next birth at least the 'you' that you are aware of. there is a long process which is described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead though I am not sure if it is the truth. According to that you go into a transition state called the Bardo. Your mind without a body is going a zillion miles a minute even faster than a schizophrenic. Collective consciousness is more a thing in psychology than Buddhism. My recommendation is to have a look at the Tibetan Book of the Dead. My teacher Lama Shenpen Hookham also wrote a book about death called There's More to Dying than Death. http://www.amazon.com/Theres-More-Dying-than-Death/dp/1899579680
Okay
Thats just SOO StOOpid.
OOOOH Is it NOOOOOOW!
Assumptions and interpretations on rebirth are partly east v west, but also partly about which Buddhist tradition(s) we're talking about.
True, although my comment was about assumptions we jump to about "each other" on this website, based only on a few sentences.
It depends on the Buddhist tradition but many believe that there is an "intermediate state" that lasts for something between 1 to 49 days. AKA "seven times seven days" at most. Which is why it's common to have a funeral ceremony on the 7th day and another ceremony on the 49th day after a persons death.
The Tibetan Book of the Dead is the most in depth book I've seen on the topic.
Some things can't be known, and having read the Tibetan book of the dead, understand how much it can be misinterpreted - it screwed me up for a long time I can tell you, what is a day when you are dead? Stick with what you know! Knower and known are the same of course! I know this ...\lol./...
Thank for the insight. I'm going to check out the Tibetan book of the dead. I'm already a screwed up American. I can't get much worse.
You already believe in reincarnation!
Wow, i thought people like you were exticnt.
check this out.
Actually the vast majority of Buddhists believe in reincarnation.
Get used to us.
Cool video.
I really enjoyed that video. Thanks. I don't know if I would call myself a Buddhist yet. I'm not anything yet. Well expect, a human exploring the meaning of my existence. That's to deep. This is better. I'm a simpleton looking for an answer to a question I forgot.
A screwed-up American.
I'm so sorry.... What's new?
(Oooh, that was low...... Just kidding friends!)
I've seen this video a few times now. Ian Stevenson's book was titled ''twenty cases suggestive of reincarnation' - note the word 'suggestive', Ian Stevenson is not here to clarify anything! I like listening to some of what Ajahn Brahm has promoted, but this does buddhism no favours...
But that's my view, and who am I?
@Victorious reincarnation is not as universally accepted as you make it appear. There is a big question as I have recently pointed out.
I just ordered Ian Stevenson's book from Half.com. I found the last cheap one on their site. I also just downloaded form pirate bay. Dr. Brian Wyce's cds about past life regression. I'm wondering if he isn't going to try to hypnotism me from that download. That'd be cool. By the way how do Buddhist feel about pirating torrents.
reincarnation @victorious implies there is something to be reincarnated, and that goes against the concept of anatman? Thats the BIG question - IS THERE A SELF (ATMAN) THAT IS REINCARNATED OR NOT (ANATMAN); or perhaps the BIG QUESTION has to be reframed - i.e. and this is perhaps a little of the type of problem: 'what the hell are we doing discussing such insoluble problems, of which we can have no knowledge of'
And I would suggest it be reframed in this way: **how is it possible, that in a world that is ever-changing, is it possible for an awareness that does not change able to exist!' or will that put the lights out for everyone...
Perhaps these are just thoughts, and need to be left alone, to evaporate back into sunyata, or suchness or whatever!
...\lol/...
For me, rebirth is one of the more complicated topics in Buddhism. On the one hand, the general premise is simple enough, i.e., that our actions have results. But implications of this can tend to get pretty abstract. My own thoughts about the teachings on rebirth have changed over time, and I tend to take a more pragmatic view of them these days. If you're interested, you can find some of my thoughts about this topic here.
OMG, my long lost twin!
This is a popular misunderstanding of the Anatta doctrine.
It can be easily corrected if you try to explain, based on what you find in the pali canon, why you think there is nothing that can be reincarnated?
If you please?
Why would there have to be an unchanging awareness in order for there to be reincarnation?
Which I take is your meaning of the above?
I don't understand what you just said about anatta; I really don't! - so please, take a little time and explain your understanding of anatta in your view of the pali canon! Then I will properly come back with a reply, that should be comprehensible in the light of this thread - but, I think you are avoiding something here, not everyone is conversant with the pali canon, and why should they be?
No don't answer the latter it's the FORMER that requires an answer
Most people think that Anatta is the negation of the atta.
But consider the following.
The texts clearly state that believing there is no self is wrong view. How would you explain that if anatta is merely a negaton of the atta.
Buddha often took existing concepts, for instance kamma, and turned their meaning to his own. So why on earth would anatta merely be the negation of atta? I have found no indication of that in the texts at all.
Anatta should be understood together with Anicca and Dukkha. Given their nature, of which the understanding I cannot hand to you, it becomes pretty clear that Anatta does not refute reincarnation. Rather Anatta is the understanding that a value of any thing only exists in the mind of beings. It fits right in with all things are transient and all fenomena lead to suffering.
The DO explains how awareness emerges. But the vessel it emerges in could as well be a "soul" as well as a carnal body.
I am not avoiding anything, I am only a little tired of explaining the same thing over and over again. (tired old man syndrome).
The above is a pretty good case for why anyone should be interested in the pali canon.
Either you find out the meaning of cultivation from the source or you are at the mercy of authority. Everyones choice. Being a mistrusting sob I generally do not trust anyone else with my path.
Cheers.
The mercy of authority?
There is no authority, other than you who exists now!
Why retreat to the past for AUTHORISATION?
Tired man syndrome - I'd call it tyred thinking; following the same path leads to worn treads, I suggest pirelli's next time...
And who said anything about retreating to the past for authorization?
But if you feel confident to practice the dhamma without actually have read it please be my guest.
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Jaay. Now I really feel better for taking the time to explain this to you.
You are welcome!
And yes pirelli is a really good tire if you want to die on the roads during the winter up here.
Cheers!
/Victor
There is more than one dharma! Pirelli's work well on British roads btw...
Yours is the pali canon! Enjoy it for what it is - Dharma.
However, I'll stop skidding around on worn tyres - I cannot verify reincarnation. And neither can anyone else in my opinion, It is therefore irrelevant in, and to, my practice, I can verify other things to satisfaction.
For instance I have suggested in the past that anatman was a skillfully used concept used by the buddha to help realign those who sought or longed after the eternal atman, to what lies between these extremes, i.e. the being that in its suchness exists in the here and now, and can be verified as such. Note: I do not imply the illusionary self or ego is atman or its abscence anatman - you have to be very careful!. I have also suggested that the teaching of suffering or dukha, was again a skillful use of a concept, that if examined properly stopped those who went to the extreme of seeking life's pleasures, and brought about the realisation of pain and suffering coexist and compliment each other and are necessary for each other - ideas sneered at by some of course who take ancient texts from unknown sources as gospel, and realisations of people who meditate in this day and age as delusionary episodes.
Oh well that's what this forum is for - putting out your ideas and having them torn apart!
But just being able to have a view is amazing!
I suggest looking at the etymology of the ideas and words that underlie incarnation and re-incarnation. It is an interesting exploration. Then go explore the flesh! What is this flesh? Whoa!
I've forgotten about reincarnation; now what is your view of nature?
ricky, check this out.
sometimes i download torrentz.
i do feel a tinge of guilt.
i ease my guilt by reminding myself that at this moment,
i dont have any income.
Thats nice but if we had British roads in Sweden ... we'd be driving on whats left of what was once right.
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Without those ancient texts/oral sources there would be no Buddhism today. For me the validation of those texts come from living the dhamma and understanding what is written and realizing it in every day life. Not by magically condensing new dhamma out of the blue.
Part of what you say is what has been known and preserved about the dhamma through those very texts.
Svakkhato Bhagavata dhammo sanditthiko akaliko ehipassiko opanayiko paccattam vedittabbo vinnuhiti.
The point of this sidetrack is that reincarnation is not disapproved by the anatta doctrine and in conclusion I like Human Nature!
/Victor
Once an Indian friend explained reincarnation in Eastern traditions is related to gods incarnating in human or animal bodies. Though in the West is used to describe the rebirth of humans like Spiritism does.
So do I @victorious - trouble is I never get bored contemplating it, and testing it, and hearing other peoples views of it! That was why I posted Sir George Trevelyan's video, it's another view that takes in other views - it gets going properly about ⅓ of the way in. And as he was an aristocrat, it may be a bit too much 'Britishness' to handle and may turn you off at the beginning, but I assure you there is wisdom in his talk!
I like the way you brought a different view of the koan to your Swedish road btw... I think having a sense of humour is very important when you reflect on life, it can get grim at times - so being able to have a good belly laugh is important!
...\lol/...
There is no other way than contemplating and testing the dhamma and I need to hear other peoples view on dhamma. And there are no end to the number of dhammas but I am one of those small minded egocentered Sravaka Buddha path followers...
Okidoki. I will give the film a go but right now I am kinda short of time and breath!
Gotta run...
Cheers!
/Victor
what is Sravaka Buddha?
One that achieves enlightenment by following the teaching of a Sammasam Buddha like Gotama.
ok. thanx.