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Advice to a co-worker
Bunks
Australia Veteran
Hi there
As some of you know, my daughter has been diagnosed with HFA (High Functioning Autism) or, as it used to be known, Asperger's Syndrome.
I have a suspicion the guy I sit next to at work may also be that way inclined but has never (as far as I'm aware) been diagnosed.
Does one ask? I don't want to offend the guy but I do know a diagnosis can be very helpful (based on books I have read from adults who've been diagnosed). He told me his sister is autistic.
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Is there any literature, (she said, being overly simplistic) such as "Do you suffer from Asperger's? How to find out" or something like that.
leave it on your desk so he sees it...
Maybe?
People are not always suffering when we perceive them to be. Especially persons on the autism spectrum, because perceptually speaking, there are some significant differences. Since autism spectrum folks are SO diverse with their spectrum 'issues', I'd be reluctant to assume you are correctly picking up on distress signals from him.
It's got to be the commonest issue yet to be 'resolved' between folks on the spectrum and us neurotypicals (whatever that means).
If he's admitted to you he's suffering, in whatever way, I like Fede's idea.
There is no way your co-worker has failed to be ever diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome if he indeed suffers from it.
The symptoms are too obvious to pass up for any parent.
But I'm not sure you should mention it unless he does.
He probably does not want everyone to know.
My son's best friend has been diagnosed with Asperger's and he doesn't like to be made to feel as if he were different.
His mother has told me that best thing we can do is never to discuss the issue with him.
I must disagree.
Most people of my parents generation (around 70 or 80 years of age) would not even know what Asperger's Syndrome was let alone be able to have their child diagnosed.
It is quite common, as you familiarize yourself with your daughter's autism, to start seeing signs of it in others. There are a lot of people who have markers, but do not meet criteria for diagnosis. Also, sometimes people are just quirky
Adult diagnoses for such problems can make things much more difficult for the person rather than helping them in a way we might think it would. Often times, adults who might meet some criteria but didn't have significant struggles, have found ways to manage the challenges they do face and get along in life just fine. Sometimes, a diagnosis is much more upsetting and difficult than just living in the way that works for them.
I personally wouldn't bring it up. You might talk with him about his sister in relation to your daughter, maybe in chatting about that similarity will bring him to talk about himself if he thinks it applies. At this point in his life, if he gets along ok for the most part, pointing out he might not be "normal" might do more harm than good.
My ex was diagnosed with AS when he was 30 years old. Even though he had some strange ways of doing things, they worked for him. Her pursued the diagnosis himself, and when diagnosed, he was assigned a life skills person to help him. It made things much harder and he became depressed at the notion that all this time he was doing everything "wrong" and was supposed to re-learn how to manage his life and social relationships when in his opinion they were going just fine.
We might not see them the way they see themselves. But is that really a bad thing? They often have an exceptional view of the world, and sometimes I think our insistence that the "normal" way of viewing the world is much more harmful than the way those on the spectrum see the world. Perhaps we should work more on seeing things from their point of view, than trying to force them to see it our way. (not saying you are trying to force him, just saying in general).
@DhammaDragon, I'd also disagree with the fact that its not possible to not be diagnosed, I have a friend who is diagnosed AS and wasn't given that diagnosis until a stay in a Psychiatric hospital in his early thirties.
My GFs son also displays high functioning autistic spectrum traits but has never had a diagnosis he's in his late twenties.
I also disagree with you, @DhammaDragon. With children today, it is more common to receive an autism diagnosis. But with people who were kids 30+ years ago, that diagnosis was far, far less common and only in highsight are we able to see those as symptoms of autism today. They have found ways to cope as they have gone through life, but are often seen as different, eccentric, quirky, lacking common sense, and other things. They are often quite adept at picking up things from social experiences. Things that most of us learn naturally but they do not, yet they pick them up over time. There are probably a number of people who are along the HF portion of the spectrum and have not been diagnosed. Despite seeking answers for my son (who is about to turn 18) even in today's world he was not diagnosed until he was 12, even though many of the markers were present when he was a toddler. His brother, who is now 12, has some markers but not enough for a diagnosis.
Reminds me of a teacher at my school who we all pegged as "odd". One day one of her colleagues said to me, "Vince, don't you see it? L---- is Aspergers. It was one of those slapping yourself on the forehead "duh" moments. So obvious except that we tended to think of some kids that way, but not to think of some adults that way.
It turned more obvious now, in second grade, because his psychomotorical development was taking such a turn that it's getting in the way of his learning.
If your co-worker's sister has been diagnosed autistic, I can only suppose his parents would be already extra sensitive to detecting anything different in their son, too.
My point was, he might not feel too comfortable talking about his condition, unless he himself brings up the subject.
You probably need to be taken into his confidence before he begins to open up on this issue.
Just an update, I ended up raising this with my colleague this morning as he has been displaying some quite erratic behaviour lately (in all honesty I am a little surprised he hasn't been fired!)
I didn't specifically ask him if he was autistic but just raised the topic of mental health with regard to anxiety issues I have had to deal with over the years.
He did say he was on medication which makes me think he has obviously (at the very least) spoken to a GP at some stage. Not sure what the medication was though.
I think I'll just let it lie now.......thanks again for your advice!
We are all on a spectrum of personality order and disorder - I often recognise and relate to certain aspects or traits in others who obviously relate best within a particular part of the personality spectrum that I lie on, but others; I just don't get them. Are they Asbergers or Autistic, or amI?
I had a really evil mental altercation tonight; it was whilst driving my car full of smashed glass out of a theatre car park, where it appeared that the front driver at the automated gate was having problems with payment or his card, so I indicated and started to turn into another exit lane, and there was a friendly face ready to let me into that lane, but I suddenly realised that the parking attendant had fixed the problem and people were getting out and the line I was originally in was moving forward again, but I was neither in one lane or the other, but the guy deserved to get out as soon as I did.
However, this really angry looking grandparent gave me the evil eye, and muttered something inaudible (an evil curse!) as she was already encroaching on my space, so I reacted spontaneously, shouting, 'I've already had to deal with the fact I had my car window smashed and you're pushing in, and saw that evil eye became even more evil, but I thought, 'fuck it!' I've got 3 tired and shocked kids and a piece of broken glass sticking in my butt, I'm going next, and that's that, and I went back into line in front of her! But out of courtesy for the crossroads ahead also turning into the same lane I was in, I let the the next driver out - I decided it would be best that I didn't look back again as that evil eye would have blessed me to drop dead instantly I'm sure.
Look up the word spectrum - and I think wikipedia is as good a source as any to define it.
Don't judge a book by it's cover, but also realise you may read it in another way as well, depending on your view!
Sure I would have been diagnosed with Aspergers if I had been younger. But it doesn't bother me - I am just aware that I tend to be somewhat pedantic and not great at social interaction, not good at "treading on egg shells".
If your co-worker is functioning, why label him? Labels may be helpful at school age to get the help required but can be so, so damaging too. Call someone clumsy often enough and they will probably become so.
Best book I have read on adults who do not realise they are on the spectrum is The Rosie Project by Graeme Simsion. First place I heard about "Aspies" - as in "Aspies rule". There is a place for those on the spectrum. Cannot recommend this book enough. Real laugh out loud stuff but with a serious message.
Thanks @SarahT. I'll check that book out.
I am wary of labeling my daughter with the Aspergers tag but I believe (hope!) it is for the best for her. As a parent we're always second guessing ourselves but hoping we're doing the right thing by our kids.
I understand where you're coming from re: the labeling thing but I think there is two sides to it and it's not always negative. Being able to recognise that a person has a certain personality type or social issues can help others be more understanding and compassionate toward them.
I am not sure my co-worker is functioning that well quite frankly. He is subject to quite violent mood swings and I know there are a number of people in our company that are at the end of their tether with him. As mentioned, I am surprised he still has a job.
Perhaps ask him what the meds are for? If he's not been stabilised yet or not found the ones that work for him, they may well be what are causing the mood swings. Sadly, mental health still has such stigma attached that few are willing to talk about it. But then, it's the same with many health problems. How many people admit that they have diabetes? But knowing can help so much if someone hasn't eaten properly.
I don't know what the situation is in Aus but in the UK there's a big move to talk about mental health and remove this stigma, as it has now been for cancer (remember the "big C"?). I would much rather people asked me than having to raise it myself - even if I worry about being labelled. Thankfully most people are just interested in educating themselves about it. My particular problems - Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and stress induced depressive illness - have no external signs so everyone thinks there's nothing wrong with me except perhaps laziness. Once they know, I agree that it can be helpful.
As ever, take what you like and leave the rest.
I like the comic line:
"1 out of 4 people has mental issues. if you're with 3 of your friends, and they're fine - then it's you!".
95% of the time I'm utterly convinced this is true!
Don't we all have an odd idiosyncrasy? I know I have. Possibly it might be labelled an OCD tendency, but it's mild.... nevertheless, sometimes, pigeon-holing people somehow devalues their unique, marvelous qualities.
Sometimes, people - is just people.
I wouldn't. He'll tell you if/when he's ready to.
This guidance from a UK anti-stigma body, Time to Change, on discussing mental health issues may be of interest:
time-to-change.org.uk/talk-about-mental-health/tips
My son borders with hyperactivity and his best friend is Asperger (already said that).
All I know is they make a beautiful duo together.
Yin and Yang. They absolutely complement each other.
When my son begins to get hyper, his friend grounds him in a very Zen fashion:
"You are getting nervous. Calm down."
At the same time, my son helps bring out a more self-reliant personality in his friend.
https://www.time-to-change.org.uk/blog/why-mental-health-needs-be-part-our-language
My next door neighbour's son has 'issues' of some sort. He holds down a job but his behaviour has brought him close to being dismissed on a number of occasions, he just can't pick up on where society's boundaries are.
He's all grown up and no 'diagnosis' is going to help him in life and it's certainly not my place to judge him in that he should seek one out, he's a functioning adult who enjoys his life and is very slowly learning what is and isn't acceptable.
Thanks @Sunspot5254. I always thought they were one and the same!
My co-worker continues to struggle with things at work. He is the head of IT Ops in the relatively small business I work in (he's an intelligent person!) but yesterday he accidentally wiped about 3 months of work for an entire team from a hard drive. Now this is a major issue and people are in a panic to get it sorted.
I can see he feels bad but what does he do? Leaves at 3.30 after doing his 7.5 hours and sends an e-mail before going stating he's working from home today as he has the air conditioner guy coming around.
Now, I don't know about you, but I would've thought he'd realise that his presence would be required today and he could put the air conditioning thing off?
It sounds like I am belittling him (and maybe I am to a degree) but I honestly think he just doesn't get it?
Sounds to me as though he is taking care of himself. Isn't it better to do this than to make yet more mistakes and potentially burn out altogether due to over-stress?
What is it that you don't think he is 'getting'?
I've had the painful (but later on, helpful) experience of being told how I'm not 'getting' something. I can truthfully say I really DIDN'T get it, what I was told was truly something I didn't see, that I needed to see. For whatever reason I just couldn't see it, and later on was glad it was pointed out.
Hi @Hamsaka. He just doesn't seem to understand what is appropriate and inappropriate in the work place.
Of course, this is all just based on my opinion!
It's possible he honestly does not know, and needs to be told. That's where it gets really risky, obviously. Undoubtedly he knows already something ain't right about how he operates in the world, and has a host of defenses around that. How to give someone this information AS 'information' to avoid his shame is beyond difficult. For me, if I had a bit of trust in a person, they could tell me difficult things, and I might feel ashamed but not so defensive, and then could take an honest look at myself. Otherwise I just felt attacked, even when I probably wasn't.
When you say he 'doesn't get it', there must be specific THINGS he does, specific behaviors -- for instance, accidentally making this huge mess and then going home so others have to clean it up. He took off home to escape how bad he felt, to get some relief and space perhaps. But it's inappropriate to do that, he needed to stay and help. This takes a TON of guts. But if he really wants to do his job well, and he feels that he's understood to a degree by someone, he might muster the courage to push past his comfort zone and actually learn something that will benefit him. ETA: in other words, people need SPECIFICS to help themselves, very concrete and literal examples rather than be told 'you're doing it wrong'.
Supposedly we aren't our brother's keeper, but consider who said that and why
I have seen people question him before and he has become super sensitive and defensive. It was pretty ugly actually.
I have developed a rapport with him (we have similar interests in TV and politics so discuss these a bit) though so I think I could talk to him about certain things.
Do I have the guts and compassion to do it though? That is the question.
I have seen him in a room with his manager and a HR Representative before so I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't been spoken to yet about his behaviour. In Australia a person can't be "sacked" after their probation period (which he has passed) unless they have had two previous written warnings about specific behaviour or an incident.
It always takes two to tango . . . so between unskillful or insensitive feedback given to him, he has a huge chip on his shoulder so that even the most compassionate feedback seems shaming (to him). It always goes both ways. The shame can be so bad that nothing gets through in spite of skillfulness or intent. It's not hostility on his part, but it shows how strong his self-disgust is.
I don't have ASD issues, I don't think, but I have had trouble fitting in, feeling like I 'belong', years ago, granted. I sort of outgrew it. It was painful. I was so sure I was doing something wrong that if anyone said I did anything wrong I overreacted, more internally than anything. It's a tough place to be because what I did to 'protect' myself from what seemed like a hostile world also kept me trapped in the same behaviors that caused me trouble in the first place, and perpetuated the self-absorption which caused the behaviors . . .
No doubt this guy is VERY clear people think there's something wrong with him, and he probably believes it himself and is beyond ashamed. The only way through all that is for him to discover someone so 'safe' that he can trust them with his vulnerability. It's a lot to ask of a co-worker
but what else is a boddhisatva-in-the-making gonna do with their time 
If he does in fact have ASD there's a 90% chance he totally has no idea what proper social interaction in the work place requires. I'm terrified that when I get out of college this will happen to me too. This is my personal so-called "history" with social interaction with ASD - Most of the time in social interactions, I copy other peoples body language because I have no idea what they're trying to convey with it. I only know what to say most of the time because I have seen it on television somewhere. I still can't comfort crying people, or give people advice without them taking it wrong. That last one is totally my fault because I don't comfort well with others. If someone was to say an issue they were having, I would only have a logical answer for them which might indicate something they done or said to bring it on themselves. Later I realize that it was completely inappropriate for me to bring that up while they were so down already.
Him leaving work was definitely unacceptable. If you've seen him talking with the higher-ups, odds are he had a meltdown that day and couldn't face it. That is understandable but people with ASD have to mold their lives around their schedules. Period. If I have to work a job Monday-Friday I have zero social time on the weekends. I don't watch TV, I get plenty of sleep, etc. There's a chance he might now know he has it. Some people aren't diagnosed until later in life. But if he does know, then he needs to take the proper steps to assure success on the battlefield (social interaction)
If he has ASD he will have limited interests and will probably know everything there is to know about those interests. Very annoying to people who don't care about those interests lol
IDK the actual answer to all this...some insight maybe...
earlier on another thread a member had called something I said rubbish. At first I was VERY upset and defensive and I had to step away from the computer. I then realized about 10 minutes later that what I took as offense couldn't have possibly been what they had intended it to be. It can be frustrating when something that takes every ounce of effort from one person, is an automatic response for another. It is more frustrating when they look at you and say "well this is easy, you're making this out to be harder than it is".
Well I've written a novel. Sorry
I hope you two can come to terms and find an understanding.
I think the culprit was me, @Sunspot5254, and being unaware of your situation, I unreservedly apologise. It was expressed in ignorance of your situation though, and yes, it was most certainly not meant to offend.
Thank you for sharing @Sunspot5254. Really helps to have personal testimony. As a sufferer from depressive illness and ME, I find it difficult to share my weaknesses. Appreciate your courage in sharing yours. But I really believe that every person who speaks out contributes to lessening stigma from those who are scared/don't want to understand.
Hugs - Sarah
Not sure if you've read any of my earlier threads but I brought this up because my four year old daughter has been diagnosed with ASD so I have a vested interest.
Any input from an adult with ASD appreciated.
How old is your daughter if you don't mind me asking Bunks? No I hadn't seen that
and Federica, like I said, There is no way you meant anything I perceived from what you said. Self insecurities (mine in this instance) make people think the wrong things in the wrong situations. You're reaction was fine
My daughter is 4.
Oh wow its impressive that you caught it this early
What signs did you have? I have a two year old but I don't know what to look for exactly. Some of her actions could qualify as both regular toddler behavior and ASD. Has it been easy or difficult for you?
A number of things:
These are the main things but there are a few others as well.
There are plenty of websites that give you signs to look out for if you're concerned about your two year old.
It wasn't that difficult for us to detect to be honest. My wife's father, brother, uncle and cousin are all that way inclined (not diagnosed) so we weren't surprised that one of our kids was too.
Her kindergarten teacher and child care teacher both flagged it with us first and our own research suggested she may be that way inclined.
About a year ago we had her assessed by a psychologist and speech therapist who gave the diagnosis.
She has her challenges but (as I'm sure you know) ASD also has a lot of positive traits. It's a pity that we tend to focus on the negative i.e. calling it a disorder! I think it should just be considered a personality type. Just my opinion. What do you think?
The world evolves because we are not clones, and making them try to fit in may make them feel different and excluded, rather than special and inclusive! love your kids for who and what they are and spot and develop their potential. So what if they don't fit within social norms - I don't!
Neither does my eldest dyslexic son, who I feel is on a different EI spectrum to me...
I had a lot of issue with this. I was diagnosed when I was 11 and shrugged it off in denial until I was 19. So unnecessary the amount of issues I had to trudge through that could've been avoided. I would pile things (full time job, full time school, volunteer work, etc etc) just to prove to myself that I could handle my anxiety. So dumb.
I up till recently saw it as a disability. Only because it was reducing my ability to do what I wanted to do.
Then I realized that what I wanted to do just wasn't going to happen without turmoil so I changed my goals and my mindset.
I hope your little one is able to cope well with her limits. It's only a disability if you allow it to be. Also, I always said that if my daughter had it, I would always remind her that its a little bit of a blessing in disguise to say. You don't have the option to deal with the BS that other people put themselves through on purpose for no good reason.
My daughter is the greatest thing that has ever happened to me and I tell her that (as well as my son of course!)
I can never thank her enough for what she has done for me.
The beauty of it is that she hasn't done anything!
As it should be
Hi all - just an update on my co-worker that I wrote about above some time ago.
Yesterday afternoon I could see he was really annoyed with a colleague of ours. He actually stated that if he could get his hands on a gun he would bring it into the office and shoot her! He said this to me once before about six months ago and I (rightly or wrongly) let it slide...........
Anyway, I told his manager and needless to see it's escalated from there. I had to make a statement to the HR person here.
It looks like he'll be sacked this morning. I have to sit beside him for the next two hours knowing what his fate is (although he doesn't yet). Not pleasant.
I'm interested to see what his reaction to me will be. Even though they won't say who has raised the complaint it will be fairly obvious.
I had to do it. Imagine if he did get his hands on a gun and (thankfully very difficult in Australia!) and did something stupid. I'd have to live with that.
Oh dear. I'm sorry it's come to this, but honestly, that was a really dumb thing for him to say.
I hope you'll be ok, and I hope he will be too, but he's not your responsibility.
You did the right thing though.
oh my. Good for you for doing the right thing. I hope he learns a lesson and gets some help for his inappropriate responses, and I hope that that is all it was. More people need to step up and speak out when those threats happen, if we never take them seriously they'll keep happening.
Thanks guys.
How many times do you read in the paper or hear on the news about people carrying out shootings and in hindsight the signs were there.
I too hope this might be a wake up call for him.
All too often here. You did the right thing @Bunks. I hope it turns out well for all concerned.