Right concentration and Factors of awakening

upekka

is it correct, if i say

second jhana of Right concentration is equal to fourth factor of Factors of awakening?

or

is there any difference?

if so

please explain

Thanks in advance

Jeffrey

these factors? Just curious

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Factors_of_Enlightenment

upekka

yes @ Jeffrey

Victorious

I did not want to say anything because I have not made head or tail of what jhana conceptually is. Only understood what piti was couple of months ago even though I have been experiencing it for decades.

But if I would have to make a qualified guess, I would say no.

Jhana is a description of a specific state of mind and what factors in it.

The factors are individual factors that need cultivating on their own or as part of something. I have been into another set of enlightenment factors for some time now and really gotten results. By understanding and applying.

These factors can be cultivated no matter if the mind is unified or not. Jhana on the other hand requires unification of mind.

Just my amateur thoughts.

/Victor

upekka

@‌ victorious
i agree for some parts of your post

however

i am not talking about the second jhana one attains once one having a concentrated mind where 'piti' is the dominant quality

but the second jhana one attains once one is within the 'Noble' eightfold-path and of course in that also the 'piti' is the dominant quality

this latter second jhana is within Right concentration, not just a concentrated mind of anyone

the fourth factor of the Seven factors for Enlightenment also 'piti'

my question is,

can't we consider the second jhana (piti) of NEP as same as fourth factor of SFE (piti) ?

thanks

DairyLama

@upekka said:
can't we consider the second jhana (piti) of NEP as same as fourth factor of SFE (piti) ?

I would say yes, piti as a jhana absorption factor is basically the same as piti as a factor of enlightenment.
Unfortunately the suttas don't provide much detail on how the seven factors of enlightenment are to be understood, though the implication seems to be that piti can arise independently of meditative experience.

Victorious

@upekka said:
can't we consider the second jhana (piti) of NEP as same as fourth factor of SFE (piti) ?

Yes! Same thing.

anataman

Dhyana = Jhana = Chan = Zen = Meditation = Contemplatation = what are we really talking about here?

Navel gazing; MEDITATION - it's the connection we call the NAVEL, and that scarred remnant of attachment is just another link for the dissociation of the words we ascribe to, or describe the same THING, birth and our connection with it!

Honestly, you have to realise that WORDS and THOUGHTS are what are holding you back from what is really a very simple realisation, and all those words above, lead to the same fantasy which is really a delusion. We are all SPELLBOUND, BEWITCHED, ENCHANTED. I have re-visited many of the Alan Watts lectures recently, I had put him and his views down for a while, but have come to understand that he knew one thing for certain - it is you who really fools yourself, and he really knew and understood this, as did DJ Suzuki, as did and do other gurus - and they are laughing with us! - however AW constantly reminded us of one of the greatest Western Mystic comments AKA William Blake: the fool who continues in their folly will become wise!

Take anything to an extreme and the absurdness of it all becomes obvious!

Go on be a fool! I'm not being flippant or disregarding anything above, but it is all really rather meaningless to discuss words rather than experiences, and in actuality, experiences is what we have, thoughts and words are how we communicate them - but to counteract my previous pre-ambling, they are not necessarily as meaningless as they appear to be?

No?

Experience is one thing

Communication is another

The fact that they can be coincident is something else!

If I'm going over your head - your not reading me right.

I was once told on this site, more than once I might add, that I was over-thinking buddhism, and aspects of buddhism. Told to cool down, chill out, meditate - well I have and after all that - I'm on a discussion for om! so let's diss and cuss - see what I mean about the words, and how they can affect your thingking!

Now I'm really gonna stick my head out for the guillotine here, because I'm in one of those moods tonight!

Let's really discuss these words and concepts that cause buddhists real confusion, like the words mentioned above, that are based on nothing really, like many mantras (there really is nought to them) but it all adds up to and means the same thing. The fact that the buddha's words were never formally written down (or at least not in his immediate lifetime and we have to rely on the oral tradition of 'chinese whispers') we are stuck discussing irrelevancies and ancient peoples conceptions and misconceptions!

So back to the OP - is this a way to right awakening, and right concentration, or are the irrelevant discussions that ensue where discussing the meanings and misinterpretations of peoples words the way forward on the path?

Or perhaps - just sit, shut up and see what is really here is really the way forward, but meaningless talk of states of mind when there is only an awareness of a state of a mind that changes according to how it perceives itself, but doesn't really exist, leads only to further delusion.

Perhaps I'm wrong - enlighten me!

Greg911

I maybe I am here to learn skillfulness. How do you get your point across when they don't want to think about what you want to say. Once they see your point it is up to them to decide if it helps them or not. Not arguing whether the point is right or not. I believe we should never dismiss there point until we know what it is. If we don't agree perhaps we could ask for clarification. Rather than why we don't agree. I think I know what you mean is this it.
He who finds the fruit has the right to name it. The fruit is always the same.

anataman

I wouldn't argue with you in any way @Gregg911, because when the fruit and the path are the same - where can you go wrong!

Greg911

The fruit is from the truth. It can lead you in the wrong direction. (right view) We all have our path whether we know it or not. That is why we follow the path of the Buddha.

upekka

thanks SpinnyNorman, thanks Victorious for the much needed confirmation

Buddhadragon

@upekka said:
i am not talking about the second jhana one attains once one having a concentrated mind where 'piti' is the dominant quality
but the second jhana one attains once one is within the 'Noble' eightfold-path and of course in that also the 'piti' is the dominant quality
this latter second jhana is within Right concentration, not just a concentrated mind of anyone
the fourth factor of the Seven factors for Enlightenment also 'piti'
my question is,
can't we consider the second jhana (piti) of NEP as same as fourth factor of SFE (piti) ?

Hi, @upekka!
In the Digha Nikaya, ii, 312 (F.L. Woodward's translation), the Four Jhanas are described in the analysis of the N8P, as you rightly said, under Right Concentration (or Contemplation, which is the term preferred by Woodward).

Woodward also translated the Khuddaka-Patha ("The Buddhist Layman's Prayer-book), and when he describes the seven factors of Enlightenment, he translates piti as "zest,"
which is the same word (both in pali and English) he uses to describe the Second Jhana.

In "The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation," Henepola Gunaratana explains the meaning of "piti:"
"In the suttas piti is sometimes said to arise from another quality called pamojja, translated as joy or gladness, which springs up with the abandonment of the five hindrances. When the disciple sees the five hindrances abandoned in himself "gladness arises within him; thus gladdened, rapture arises in him; and when he is rapturous his body becomes tranquil" (D.i,73). Tranquillity in turn leads to happiness, on the basis of which the mind becomes concentrated. Thus rapture precedes the actual arising of the first jhana, but persists through the remaining stages up to the third jhana.

   The Vibhanga defines piti as "gladness, joy, joyfulness, mirth, merriment, exultation, exhilaration, and satisfaction of mind" (Vbh. 257). The commentaries ascribe to it the characteristic of endearing, the function of refreshing the body and mind or pervading with rapture, and the manifestation as elation (Vism.143; PP.149). Shwe Zan Aung explains that "piti abstracted means interest of varying degrees of intensity, in an object felt as desirable or as calculated to bring happiness."[12]

   When defined in terms of agency, piti is that which creates interest in the object; when defined in terms of its nature it is the interest in the object. Because it creates a positive interest in the object, the jhana factor of rapture is able to counter and suppress the hindrance of ill will, a state of aversion implying a negative evaluation of the object.

  Rapture is graded into five categories: minor rapture, momentary rapture, showering rapture, uplifting rapture and pervading rapture.[13] Minor rapture is generally the first to appear in the progressive development of meditation; it is capable of causing the hairs of the body to rise. Momentary rapture, which is like lightning, comes next but cannot be sustained for long. Showering rapture runs through the body in waves, producing a thrill but without leaving a lasting impact. Uplifting rapture, which can cause levitation, is more sustained but still tends to disturb concentration, The form of rapture most conductive to the attainment of jhana is all-pervading rapture, which is said to suffuse the whole body so that it becomes like a full bladder or like a mountain cavern inundated with a mighty flood of water. The Visuddhimagga states that what is intended by the jhana factor of rapture is this all-pervading rapture "which is the root of absorption and comes by growth into association with absorption" (Vism.144; PP.151)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html#ch1.3

Buddhadragon

Sorry about the infamous "yellow box."
It appeared on its own.

upekka

thanks DhammaDragon for your post with explanation by Ven H Gunarathna and the Vibanga definition

i can very well relate to them up to Showering rapture so far and it confirms that where 'i am' heading is correct

thank you again and much merit to you all

lobster

@upekka is it possible for you to find a Theravadin monk mentor to write to or email at least? Your questions are highly specific and technical and I feel this might be something worth considering.

DairyLama

@upekka said:
i can very well relate to them up to Showering rapture so far and it confirms that where 'i am' heading is correct

It certainly sounds as if you're heading in the right direction.
This Dhamma Wheel discussion on the seven factors of enlightenment might be of interest: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20255&hilit=seven+factors+of+enlightenment