six elements

lobster

Five divisions (which I was taught) or six makes little difference. In some Western magick systems such as the Golden Dawn, the tattva from raja yoga is used:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tattva

The shapes and colours may be different. This 'science' is not precise but internally pragmatic and verifiable. Good idea to keep a journal of ones meditations with the elements.

upekka

Merits to you @lobster, and you @SpinyNorman i consider you two are as my newly found good friends (kalyanamitta and teachers)

i went through the links provided by you and they helped me in today morning meditation

it is cleared now, the relationship among colours, shape, elements and the Buddha's Teaching (doctrine and conduct)
and
sounds, letters, elements and the Buddha's Teaching

practising Vinaya/sila (conduct) with reading/listening to Dhamma (doctrine) help to gain Panna (wisdom) which lead to Awakening to the Truth

practising with wisdom gained at the Awakening lead to Enlightenment (Nibbana/ Stop the rebirth/get rid of suffering)

once Buddha said showing a small number of leaves in His hand 'monk, this is the dhamma i told you and that is enough for get out of samsara (to attain Nibbana)'

that is what Theravada Buddhism stands for

as @federica said other things like paying attention to colours, shapes, sounds, letters, numbers etc. are side tracks and there is a possibility worldlings would go astray from the main task of 'getting rid of suffering'

however, those are very relevant to Buddhism and help to gain Siddhi like levitation, reading minds etc.

i think that is Mahayana Buddhism stands for

one of the link @lobster provided said 'it is to be hidden. It hid'

if you do not mind @lobster and @SpinyNorman i would like to discuss my experience i have got during today morning meditation

I can PM you if it is not a problem, thanks

thanks to you all who participated in this thread and you all knowingly or unknowingly helped me

Merits to you all

lobster

I prefer to discuss things in an open forum, so that any advice or other dubious practices are scrutinised and no donations to my 'cushion temple fund' are solicited . . .

Basically I would not trust myself. You would probably be better off talking to a hedgehog.

upekka

i will

but

i think it would be better to practice the gained skill in world i am living right now

i mean home and the society i involve

so now, i am going to do some shopping with my husband and try to apply the 'knowledge' and see whether my theory (i found in meditation) is really applicable even in the normal setting

thank you @lobster again (*)

robot

@‌upekka
If I understand you correctly, you are saying this about your view:
The Theravedan is practicing to eliminate suffering through 8fp without attempting to understand the role of sounds, shapes, colors, letters or numbers in their practice.
Whereas the Mahayanist is practicing beyond the end of suffering, but also in order to attain siddhis like levitation and such, and that meditation on the six elements is a means to that goal.
Is that right?

Something that I learned from @RichardH‌, and I hope I understood him correctly, is that the only gauge of ones successful practice is the reduction of day to day suffering.
One can say "there is suffering" without undue attachment to a self that is doing the suffering.
So any reduction in the attachment to self might also be seen as a reduction in suffering.

To strive for another indicator of attainment such as mind reading, is sort of like trying for a degree or certificate.
It's a feather in the cap for the self. A good indicator that the self is alive and well and in the driver's seat.
The self that is quite happy to go on believing that it is suffering, or that it is happy to be levitating.

I'm sure that I have misinterpreted your meaning about the difference between the yanas.

Jeffrey

The siddhis purpose isn't to make the practitioner enlightened. The purpose is to help other beings. For example the purpose of the dharma is not to be wealthy, but if you are wealthy then you can start a foundation that helps sentient beings.

upekka

after five hours of applying 'the gain knowledge' of the relationship between elements and the Buddha's Teaching, i am quite sure it is worth the try

however, our main concern should be on getting the Noble Right View first because then we are on the 'safe ground' to think over or pay wise attention or investigating Dhamma (things and beings), relationship between elements and the Buddha's Teaching

again there might be people who can do that without distracting to their main concern (gaining the Noble Right View which is compulsory to practice Noble Eightfold Path) because until then one can not say one is on safe ground

anyway, i will come back to this thread after two days time (15/12/2014) and will provide some information to discuss further

Now, i really, really need a rest, and this rest is immensely supported by the gained knowledge

until then remember virtue (sila) and concentrated and calm mind (samadhi) will lead to wisdom (panna)

it is a sure thing

Merits to you all

federica

@lobster, comment deleted. Kindly keep to topic and quit posting nonsense. Humour becomes you. Pointless nonsense is a different matter entirely.

lobster

I iz funny but not always in a humorous manner . . .

@federica no idea what I posted as it was deleted.

Alchemy uses 'nonsense' to protect itself and reveal itself in other ways. If we have no or limited knowledge of how alchemy operates we might consider 'pointless nonsense' has a function we are unaware of, hard as that might seem . . .

If we wish to have something explained, we are free to ask. Just remember that deletion, noble silence, nonsense or wisdom are not always as apparently skilful/ignorant and obvious as some insist . . .

and now back to other elements . . . be interesting what @uppeka comes up with . . .

Chaz

@upekka said:
however, those are very relevant to Buddhism and help to gain Siddhi like levitation, reading minds etc.

i think that is Mahayana Buddhism stands for

If you think that the Mahayana stands for attaining Siddhis, then you you don't really understand Mahayana. Yes there have been many who, following a Mahayana path, have have become Siddhas, but this was not their goal or their purpose. The the Mahayana stands for the benefit of beings, not floating in the air.

federica

@lobster said: I iz funny but not always in a humorous manner . . .
If we wish to have something explained, we are free to ask. Just remember that deletion, noble silence, nonsense or wisdom are not always as apparently skilful/ignorant and obvious as some insist . . .

Ecclesiastes 3.

Number 7....

Buddhadragon

@upekka: I'm really intrigued to learn how you apply this new found insight into the six elements to help you in cessation of suffering in your daily life.
In what way do you feel your daily experience has been enriched by it?
Just curious.

Buddhadragon

What about the Four Elements?

I was reading Nyanatiloka Thero's "The Word of the Buddha" last night, and came across an excerpt from the Samyutta-Nikaya where he mentions the Four Elements or Four Elementary Forces.

"What now, Brothers, are the Four Chief Material Elements? They are the Solid Element, the Fluid Element, the Heating Element, the Vibrating Element."

Thero describes these elements as Inertia, Cohesion, Radiation and Vibration, and he explains that all material things owe their existence to the inter-blending of these forces.
These denominations are another way to call Earth, Water, Fire and Air.

Found a link in Buddhanet which includes a meditation on the Four Elements:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/fourelements.pdf

upekka

@SpinyNorman said:

i will
in the mean time anybody can visit this thread

talking about the time, i come back on 15th but it is still 14th some of you
see
even the time is not give us the same meaning

@robot said:
@‌upekka
If I understand you correctly, you are saying this about your view:
The Theravedan is practicing to eliminate suffering through 8fp without attempting to understand the role of sounds, shapes, colors, letters or numbers in their practice.
Whereas the Mahayanist is practicing beyond the end of suffering, but also in order to attain siddhis like levitation and such, and that meditation on the six elements is a means to that goal.
Is that right?

yes, but the difference is Mahayanist practice Buddha's Teaching
without practicing Buddha's Teaching some can gain the Siddhis and this is not advisable

Something that I learned from RichardH‌, and I hope I understood him correctly, is that the only gauge of ones successful practice is the reduction of day to day suffering.
One can say "there is suffering" without undue attachment to a self that is doing the suffering.
So any reduction in the attachment to self might also be seen as a reduction in suffering.

this is true

To strive for another indicator of attainment such as mind reading, is sort of like trying for a degree or certificate.
It's a feather in the cap for the self. A good indicator that the self is alive and well and in the driver's seat.
The self that is quite happy to go on believing that it is suffering, or that it is happy to be levitating.

no

after getting the Noble Right View, if one can get Siddhis, that helps to continue practice more profoundly and help others too in their difficult situations

I'm sure that I have misinterpreted your meaning about the difference between the yanas.

yes

i will come back later to answer others' question
now i have to go

practice virtue, concentration and that will lead to wisdom
and then
can think about Siddhis

(*)

karasti

In Ayurveda, the last element is referred to as ether, or space. It's really quite fascinating to read about. You have to be able to infer and read between the lines a bit, but there is actually quite a lot of modern science that corroborates ancient practices. It's pretty interesting how much they got right just by observation that we can now provide more in-depth scientific reasoning to today. For example, they knew 5000 years ago that the body treated certain foods as sweet, such as wheat and potato. Even though they do not have a sweet taste we would identify with. We now know that such foods are high glycemic foods, meaning the body treats them as high-sugar/sweet foods unless they are paired with something otherwise.

I do not have time to look up my notes on the elements as far as ayurveda goes, but I will try to remember to do that tomorrow. Sometimes, things seem so simplistic that they seem impossible. But the more our modern science finds, the more it matches up with ancient thought. It's pretty interesting. Despite all our advances and money, we still don't have a lot of things right.

upekka

@karasti said:
In Ayurveda, the last element is referred to as ether, or space. It's really quite fascinating to read about. You have to be able to infer and read between the lines a bit, but there is actually quite a lot of modern science that corroborates ancient practices. It's pretty interesting how much they got right just by observation that we can now provide more in-depth scientific reasoning to today. For example, they knew 5000 years ago that the body treated certain foods as sweet, such as wheat and potato. Even though they do not have a sweet taste we would identify with. We now know that such foods are high glycemic foods, meaning the body treats them as high-sugar/sweet foods unless they are paired with something otherwise.

I do not have time to look up my notes on the elements as far as ayurveda goes, but I will try to remember to do that tomorrow. Sometimes, things seem so simplistic that they seem impossible. But the more our modern science finds, the more it matches up with ancient thought. It's pretty interesting. Despite all our advances and money, we still don't have a lot of things right.

thanks @karasti

this is an area that i have not pay attention so far

is there any questions that i did not answer? if so tell me

i found in my last post (even though i wrote it in a hurry) i answered to many questions you have asked?

upekka

‘‘Sukho viveko tuṭṭhassa, sutadhammassa passato;
Abyāpajjaṃ sukhaṃ loke, pāṇabhūtesu saṃyamo.
‘‘Sukhā virāgatā loke, kāmānaṃ samatikkamo;
Asmimānassa yo vinayo, etaṃ ve paramaṃ sukhaṃ;

Seclusion is bliss for one who is content, who has heard the Dhamma, who sees.
Non-malevolence is bliss in the world, restraint for living beings.
Fading of lust is bliss in the world, the overcoming of sensuality.
The subduing of the conceit "I am" — That indeed is the ultimate bliss

upekka

@upekka said:
‘‘Sukho viveko tuṭṭhassa, sutadhammassa passato;
Abyāpajjaṃ sukhaṃ loke, pāṇabhūtesu saṃyamo.
‘‘Sukhā virāgatā loke, kāmānaṃ samatikkamo;
Asmimānassa yo vinayo, etaṃ ve paramaṃ sukhaṃ;

Seclusion is bliss for one who is content, who has heard the Dhamma, who sees.
Non-malevolence is bliss in the world, restraint for living beings.
Fading of lust is bliss in the world, the overcoming of sensuality.
The subduing of the conceit "I am" — That indeed is the ultimate bliss

(*)

anataman

The dharma is a method of attaining what has already been achieved, namely buddhadharma.

No need for baggage, rafts or science degrees, just a willingness to accept that 'I' am a fake and everything else is too! And nought comes out of it, and everything belongs in it.

It's not difficult; unless you want to make it difficult for your self.

But as there is no self, why make things more difficult than they have to be?

...!SIgh!/...

upekka

@anataman said:

...!SIgh!/...

no need to worri

others will come to understand this one of these days

but

i think it is a good point to start to think about 'Sigh'

is it out breath?
or
in breath?

are there any elements involve in breath?

anataman

It's 'sigh no so idol'!

slowly... think about it...

...\lol/...

upekka

@anataman said:
It's 'sigh no so idol'!

slowly... think about it...

...\lol/...

AAAAAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

anataman

I prefer HHHHHaaaaaHHHHaaaaaaaaaaaRRRR!

...\lol/...

upekka

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee