The Wind and the Flag, a Koan discussion
Cinorjer
Veteran
OK, a recent little thread caused a famous koan to intrude on my meditation once again. Let's have a brief discussion about the famous koan about Huineng, one of the Patriarchs of Chan. It goes like this, in one version or another:
Two monks were arguing while watching a flag flapping in the wind.
"The flag is moving," argued one monk.
"No, it's the wind that is moving!" insisted the other monk.
Huineng was passing by, and remarked, "It's your minds that are moving."
Now, this koan doesn't actually have a question to end it. We are to assume the question is, what did Huineng mean by it's their minds that were moving? Huineng, by the way, is the famous Patriarch who won the temple poem by writing "The mind is not a mirror" answer to a poetry contest.
Now, in discussing a koan, remember there are several ways to approach koans and none of them are wrong and none are right. For some, every koan is like a mantra, a series of sounds that have no logical meaning and used in meditation to break through logical thought. But koans do have a structure and a language, and I was taught by Rev. Young to look for the mind hook as a beginning point to meditation. So what's the mind hook in this little gem?
The flapping flag, of course. Can any of you read this koan without picturing a flag flapping in the wind? We've all seen them many times in our lives. They're fascinating to watch. So your mind focuses on the flag. Your mind gets trapped in the same question the two monks argued over. Is the flag or is the wind doing the moving?
But that's not the important part of the koan. You have to let go of the flag. Whether or not it's the flag or the invisible wind moving is irrelevant. Take another look at the koan. Two monks are arguing. Over who is right and wrong. About something as foolish as the nature of movement. Zen is all about a quiet, still mind. Still like the smooth surface of a pond without a rock thrown into it. Were these monks practicing a still mind? If you hold onto your beliefs and argue if they're right and wrong compared to other, equally valid beliefs, is your mind quiet and still? Or is your mind moving, flapping like that flag?
So do you see the point of the koan? Huineng was telling the monks their minds were like that flag, cracking and moving in the invisible wind of their thoughts and emotions.
So what's the answer? Is the flag moving, or is the wind moving, or is the mind moving?
The flag is moving in the breeze. That's all.
And that's my comment on the famous koan. Now, what's your comment on the koan?
Comments
I think it's nothing to get into a flap over.
The more you apply thought to it, the more you fall prey to the very thing it's warning you about.
Just giving it a quick tangent, on the one hand, pretty well everything is moving so they are all right except when implying the other is wrong. Huineng is a little more on the nose but it seems to me that he was being a wise guy as well as just being wise.
He probably would have made a good mod.
A lot of these old Masters seemed to be experts at snarky replies, weren't they?
>
I don't think my post was snarky.
I think it was short and to the point....
Verbosity seemed redundant.
ˈsnɑːki/
adjective British informal
Well, that's better, but even then, I was merely stating opinion in a brief and succinct way...
Jeesh, why the moratorium??
Koans aren't usually part of my practice, but this one does come to my mind from time to time, so thank you for sharing your thoughts. Don't be discouraged by the dismissive response here.
No dismissive response I can see anywhere. Care to point it out?
I hope you don't think I was in any way criticizing your post. I love snark, especially from the Masters. And your post was entirely accurate and I loved the "flap" pun on the flag.
My comment about no approach being wrong and no approach being right pretty much sums up my own attitude. Feel free to disagree with my own comments on the koan. That's what they're designed to do.
The Koan reminds me of the joke:
A man joins a monastery, where silence is observed.
The first year, during a meal, someone says "Please pass the salt."
The second year, during a meal, someone else says, "please pass the bread."
The third year, during a meal, another Monk requests "Please pass the sugar."
He subsequently goes to the Abbott and decides to leave the monastery. The Abbot asks him why.
"Because," he replies tersely, "People talk too much!"
When does talking become mind-flapping?
When is talking 'enough' and when is it 'too much'?
Koans are just the instructions to keep a crippled plane safely circling the airport, burning off excess fuel until somebody finally develops the spiritual balls to land it.
All talking is mind-flapping, you know that.
But one must digest the koan. I roll the koan up into a ball and take a big bite out of it, then chew away on the words. There is a time to chew and a time to swallow. So chew away. Eventually, you'll have chewed enough so you can choke down the koan.
That's weird, because I just happen to be chewing on an apple right now..... :astonished:
A Zen forum might be better?
A Zen forum might be better?
Nah, every Zen forum I've tried in the past was too invested in maintaining the purity of the zazen experience. Take themselves way too seriously. Zennists can get hung up on that "First rule of Zen is, you can't describe it in words" thing, which since they're hanging out in a forum where all you have is words, that has always seemed to me a strange dichotomy.
Besides, I learn more from people who have a different outlook on Buddhism and sometimes life itself. I already know what someone is going to say about sitting zazen if that's their practice. It's boring and your legs hurt and after a half hour, you swear if the guy sitting to the right of you doesn't stop sniffling that runny nose you're going to shove your cushion up his nostrils. But then you have to convince the Teachers that you're on some spiritual level reaching Satori.
Yes but it's easy to be an "expert" on a new-age forum like this one. Don't you want to extend your knowledge?
I'm only speculating here...but maybe he meant...
" Stop trying to separate the two. Both are working together to make both happen...
... right now, your mind games are keeping you from doing the lunch dishes"
BTW....what is the flagpole doing in all of this? Just standing there....letting it all happen....hahahaha
Heh. If your definition of "expert" is "opinionated old fart" then I'll accept the title. Otherwise, them's fighting words.
It's been way over 20 years since I sat in a zazen hall and I do love reading some bookmarked links to a few Zen Buddhist websites, but I have too much knowledge already and if you think some topics here are rehashed to death, it was much worse back in the alt.zen and such. But it has been a while, and you've gotten me wondering. I just might do a bit of surfing around.
I think I'll just take a few moments to ponder this oneI
Not sure how long I'll be with a proper answer; as all I can say that from one perspective there is a flag and there is a breeze and the flag appears to be waving, but I also know from another perspective the flag and the breeze are inseparable and dependent on each other, and there can be no waving without one or the other. It's nice to sit and meditate on such observations, and watch as the mind flips from one perspective to another. It's the same as when you meditate on the self and the world, and watch the perspective shift from a universal to a particular view. Oh well, how do you describe that without first observing it....
The master observed the monks flapping and pointed that out to them.
The monks were confused about the origins of flapping, and the master corrected them.
I think the cushion beckons.
Trying or looking for any expert on the topic would be the complete opposite of 'don't know'. Or....would defeat the purpose of 'gaining'/dropping by knowledge/experience.
I think this is the perfect place for Koan discussions for those who use them. We have several Zen students here....and Hubby and I have been hitting Thay's Koan book for the last couple of months. I've just started to get into them... I welcome any Koan thread....no matter how crazy I get during the process....hahahaha
Which book is that if you don't mind me asking?
ZEN KEYS. There's 43 of them in there.
http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Keys-Guide-Practice/dp/0385475616/ref=asap_B000AP5YRY?ie=UTF8
@ourself
@vastmind I haven't read that one. Can you give us an example of one of the koans in it that seems particularly interesting to you and your Hubby?
Wow, ok... That is actually the first of Thays books that I read and I've had it for almost 20 years. Only a handful of things made it with me as long.
I'm going to get reacquainted starting tomorrow.
@Cinorjer : thanks for raising this post. i think you have already replied to my posts, so you know that i am a stupid guy, who theoretically somewhat understand about something about zen, but practically these days my morning sittings are not happening as i have to leave for office slightly earlier in morning and i am too lazy to get much earlier to get time for sitting. but still i try to relax while taking tea, or while trying to feel my feet while taking a walk after lunch etc. but as far as my sitting meditation goes, these days i do not sit regularly and moreover, there is no calm in my meditation.
Back to topic of this thread, as far as my understanding goes - the master pointed to monks that their mind was moving, when they were trying to understand what is happening, even though in the moment there is just a seen of a flag in some state, but since the moments go by so quickly, it gives the continuum experience of a moving flag, but in the moment it is just a seeing happening, or a thought arising as a question or a thought arising to figure out the answer of the question, but the analysis happens only after a thing has happened, but then how can we know that the analysis is correct because it is based on past thoughts, which are just memory, not something in now and as far as what is happening in now is concerned, since the moment is so small, so where is the time to think and figure it out what is happening in now.
If my understanding is not correct, then please help me to correct my understanding. thanks in advance.
Hi @misecmisc1 and glad to hear from you. Sorry that your practice isn't going so well right now. Sometimes all we can do is hang on, do what we can, and wait for things to settle down so we can find the energy to meditate.
As for your comments on the koan, I think you might still be caught on the mind hook of the flag flapping in the wind. You've pretty much joined the two monks debating the nature of what we can know about the moving flag we see on the pole. Your analysis of how the mind uses our senses doesn't appear to be wrong but remember this is a Zen koan designed for Zen monks. They leave all that elevated analysis on the book shelf and figure one good smack on the head is a better way to learn.
The hard thing for us to grasp about Zen is that it's not at all complicated or esoteric. It's the opposite. The lessons it tries to teach are actually simple ones. As everyone here has probably learned, uncomplicated and simple is not the same as easy.
The two monks aren't trying to understand what's happening. They have taken positions and are defending those positions. Is the flag or wind moving? Intellectually, the answer is simply both are moving, depending on your viewpoint. As long as their minds are flapping away defending their own belief, their minds are like that flag, snapping in the wind and going nowhere.
Simple. Now, demonstrating your insight to a Teacher, that's another matter.
Unless they are koans too.
Or maybe my mind is flapping.
Good thread, Cinor, though :#
Tran Thai Tong, THE KHOA HU (Lessons in Emptiness)
Translated in English by TNH
From ZEN KEYS.... #18
Case: Master Trieu Chau says "You are controlled by the 24 hrs of the day. I control the 24hrs of the day.
Commentary: He calls himself a Master and yet he despises people. His speech has no basis whatsoever.
Verse: The old man kids himself. He says he can tame fiery dragons and ferocious tigers 24 hrs a day. In fact, if one knows how to change iron into gold, he won't go telling everyone he meets in the street.
That is a wonderful koan and not one I've seen before. It might even be even more relevant for the lay person's busy schedule. How much of our lives, what we do and who we are, is controlled by what we can cram into one day?
Or is it, really? Are we slaves to our responsibilities and work, or can we be the master of our own lives? The Master here says we can.
Or is the Master wrong? The mind hook is the 24 hours in the day, The real question is, what is doing the controlling?
Like I said, a wonderful koan. Think I'll chew on it for a while. Thanks for presenting it here.
I would say it is noteworthy that the flag is moving. Wind by nature always move thus the wind moving is not noteworthy. The mind moving is as always. So I would say that the flag moving is noteworthy, but mind moving is the answer to the koan I guess.
Zen Keys: A Guide to Zen Practice:
http://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/ZenKeys.pdf
quick print it off before it becomes shackled!
If you want to be free, get to know your real self.
It has no form, no appearance, no root, no basis, no abode,
But is lively and buoyant.
It responds with versatile facility, but its function cannot be located.
Therefore when you look for it, you become further from it;
When you seek it, you turn away from it all the more.
So your back where you were, but
ONLY YOUR VIEW CHANGED
...\lol/...