Going to a party
lazywizard
New
Hello, everyone! I am new here and I want to express my sincere wish to be a good part of your, that is to say our, community.
My first query would be something I've been struggling with for quite some time. In about 13-14 months or so, I will have finished my secondary education here in Czech republic and as a part of that our class (and essentially all the other classes from all the secondary schools AFAIK) is holding a big ball of sorts, a big party. A prom, if you will. Now, I do not like such affairs and I believe I have not benefited from them so far. Going out and partying has been distressing in the end. So that's a good reason for not going, right? But I have some bigger problems:
1) It costs a lot of money. Something around 6,000 USD or even more. This is (AFAIK) more than someone on minimum wage in my country would make in a year. I find this unacceptable, such a large sum of money could be spent on a better cause. I still have to pay, I don't want to burden my classmates with more fees and I fear I might be creating even more discord.
2) There will be drinking. We are all of legal drinking age (18 and upwards). Many minors will, I am quite sure, drink there as well.
3) There will be inappropriate behaviour amongst some of the people. Kissing, going home with someone and all that. I have seen how this could lead to personal suffering and discord amongst friends.
I hope and believe most people will act within certain boundaries. I also understand my beloved friends (NOT sarcastic! I DO love them.) have very different moral outlook and they think this is quite harmless in the end (or maybe they don't, I don't want to lie about them.), but I can not support such behaviour by going, by participating. It would seem like everything is alright with me if I participate, yet if I don't, my classmates might be upset, sad, angry, they might feel I do not like them... I fear I might not be able to explain my position to them properly.
What I want to ask you: do you know of any buddhist precedent for such occasions? Should I or should I not participate? What should I do if I participate? And what do YOU think about this?
I am so sorry for the long post! Thanks for any responses. 
Comments
Hi @lazywizard, and welcome to NB.
How big is the party going to be? I take it you have no problem being in the presence of alcohol and drinking (parties) - in other words, you're not addicted or anything, right? So that's not a problem, but it bugs you that others will be doing it - but that's what they do at parties - although, the thought occurs to me that there could be others there just like you, so that's a positive thought.
I say so what, if you feel you haven't 'explained' your stance to them properly because you don't have to carry on a bad attitude towards them for what they choose to do and how to behave. If you go, you're going to have to simply watch as things unfold and this will give you a big opportunity to watch while being relatively unmoved by things you don't 'approve' of. And as you said, you still love your friends and they love you, so I think things could turn out okay.
@silver Thank you for your response! I am (thankfully) not addicted, however, I do not trust myself not to be swept by others behaviour. I am quite impressionable, I think...
But it could be such a good exercise in self-control and dealing with others. I'll see what others have to say and then I'll talk to my classmates about this. I hope we can have some sort of a compromise.
Welcome!
$6000 USD seems incredible to me. My son goes to prom here, and I thought it was bad that it cost $400 USD (with his clothing rental). We didn't even spend $6000 on our wedding
Will you regret not going? What is driving you to go, given most of the things you wrote seem to indicate you do not want to?
I went to my prom twice. It was ok. If it cost $6000, I wouldn't have gone. It was nice to have the time with friends, and as a class. We still talk about some of the memories 20+ years later
But if it is going to stress you out in so many ways, how might it be worth it?
You most certainly can go and not drink or take someone home with you. Those are not expectations, even if others plan to do it. You can set your own expectations.
@karasti There are 28 (if I am not mistaken) of us in our class and most of us will pay around 247 USD in the end. It is not such a big sum once you pay it over the years.
What is driving me to go is that I do not want to contribute to the disappointment of my classmates, teachers... I do not want to be selfish and contribute to their distress, however, I do feel that I can not go, because everyone would expect that I agree with what is going on, since I am one of the people who organized and paid for the party, one of the people who are celebrating the conclusion of their studies. I can explain it to my classmates, sure, but all the unsuspecting people would think all is well. And I can not contribute to that feeling, since that seems dangerously close to lying for my liking. I am not disappointed by imagining not gonig, I do not like parties. There will be dancing and all that chatter and, oh boy, would my head hurt!
But still, I do not want to unnecessarily disturb my friends. Maybe if we agree on some slogan for the party, like: "behave repsonsibly!" or somethnig like that... But I can not make them do anything like that, they would have to come up with it themselves. I can not push my values on them, can I?
Thanks for the comment!
Hi, @lazywizard! I'll start off by telling you I think you are over-thinking this....
Perfect! And that's all you needed to say, really....
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Sadly, that's not your call, and frankly, if hi is the way they would like to invest the money, it's not really anything you need worry about...
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It's sad though that you seem to be saying it is obligatory....?
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So what? if you're not going to be drinking, what others do is not your business, or responsibility....You cannot assume the mantle of everyone's moral conscience. That is presumptuous, and not necessary...
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Oh don't e such a spoilsport! Simply because you are not going to indulge, don't go raining on anyone else's parade! if they want to have fun that way, let them! Don't be such a 'wet blanket'! They are young - and so are you! You should enjoy life a little, let your hair down....!
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You're being pretty judgemental here.... Unless they're raping, stealing and taking hard drugs, I really don't see why you feel it's appropriate for you to look down upon their morals...
but I can not support such behaviour by going, by participating.
Then pay up, but don't go.
Sorted.
you don't have to compromise your principles, and they can spend the evening according to their morals. Then everyone is happy!
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Again, I'm sorry, ut you really sound as if you believe your position to be of a higher value to theirs.
They are doing what comes naturally to most fun-loving young people... if you don't want to share in that, then don't, but do not hold them up to criticism because that really does not put you in a good light...
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There's no such thing as a Buddhist precedent unless you are an ordined monk.
Otherwise live your life skilfully. But that does not necessarily mean living in a cupboard, and believing yourself entitled to condemn others for wishing to enjoy themselves....
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If you really don't feel you can, without also embarking on a huge guilt-trip, then don't.
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Whatever you want, that would permit you to enjoy yourself, without hang-ups, or holding others up to criticism...
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I think I wish I was your age again, and had my time over, to have as much fun, again! Ah, I miss those great days!!
@federica Thank you for your comment. I should try to sound and be less judgemental, but I do not understand how you get that from what I was saying. I do not approve of their behaviour, because by all evidence it is harmful to them, just as it has been harmful to me, but I have been mistaken about many things so often that the situation may be quite different. Maybe I am over-thinking this issue, but it is my responsibility to act in a good manner and atleast try to do nothing which would negatively influence others.
Said with respect and love: I can not fathom how you are able to tell me I should not hold them to criticism, yet actually give me advice. Doesn't that imply your position is of a higher value, or simply put: better (if that is what you ment by higher value), than mine? Why else should I follow your advice then? I have as solid evidence as I can get at this time to disapprove of "what comes naturally to most fun-loving young people". Such things have harmed me, since I am a "fun-loving young person" I have sought them and been harmed, and they have harmed my friends. It is alright, we are not perfect. But does that mean I should not speak out, now that I know a little bit better? You are saying this behaviour is alright (aren't you?), but by the same logic why should you know better? Can you offer any proof that this behaviour is better than the alternative of not drinking, not having promiscuous sex etc. ? One does not need to live in a cupboard... is really partying the middle way? Again, said with respect and love. Genuine questions, not attacks. I am puzzled and very much trying not to be antagonistic!
What I meant by a buddhist precedent was, if there is any soluton coming from the buddhist tradition to such situations, which has been proved over the ages to be quite satisfactory. I do not feel I am condemning anyone for anything. Maybe this is just an illusion, I do not know. However, I must act and think about the consequences of my actions. I hope you might be able to explain further, if I am missing something. Thank you!
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Yes, but this isn't up to you to evaluate or consider changing. You actually have no right, in the Buddhist sense, to consider your behaviour virtuous, or theirs 'harmful'. It's only harmful if they agree it is.
Your behaviour is different to theirs That's all. And that's the only way you should consider it.
Ok, fine, if you wish to address your own behaviour with a critical eye, and decide what is skilful and unskilful for you, that's ok. But you cannot hope to influence others, or act, or think in such a way as to try to, either.
You can only, and only ever shoud, look to yourself....
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Because you asked for it.
Had you not requested advice, I would never have proffered opinion.
But you are mistaken if you think I believe you should, or MUST follow my advice.
I proposed my view for your perusal. Nothing I said should be taken as read, if you don't want to. The choice is entirely yours.
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But this is down to personal choice.
If people CHOOSE to follow a specific pattern of behaviour, you are not in any position to interfere.
If your friends actually seek your advice and ask, "Should I do this? What do you think? Please advise me!" Then you are free to tell them what you think - just as I have done.
But they are under no moral obligation to follow your counsel - just as you are under no obligation whatsoever to pay any attention to mine....
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No, I am not.
I am saying that they are as free to behave in any way they choose, and no matter what your opinion of that, you should not seek to change their behaviour UNLESS THEY SPECIFICALLY REQUEST YOUR INPUT and even then, the choice of subsequent behaviour, is still theirs.
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Because I'm 58, I'm a mother twice over, and have been where you are now, figuratively speaking, so I have a huge wallop of experience to look back on...
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I have never said or implied it's better. I am merely pointing out that if that's what they want to do, it is not your place to interfere with that, unless asked to, by them....
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It can be! You are a layperson, not an ordined monk. Such things, in Moderation, are not harmful, providing you are Mindful of your actions. As long as you maintain self-control, there is no risk, is there?
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Yes, the Noble Eightfold Path.
All things in Moderation.
Including Moderation.
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Yours, yes. Theirs, no.
Do what you believe to be right for you.
There is no need for you to explain yourself, or to justify your actions, just as there is no need for them to explain and justify theirs.
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Hopefully that has helped.
In Buddhism, what we say, can have no effect on others, half as much as what we do.
it is not skilful to proselytise or preach. It is more skilful to demonstrate a good, and happy life, well-lived, by how we act and behave, not by what we try to influence others to do.
OOOH I'm sorry I totally misunderstood, i thought you meant it was $6000 per person to go, I thought holy moly! That makes more sense.
Last year when my son was in his junior year (so he was 17) he went to prom. He decided long before he did not want to risk legal trouble, safety, or his sports and scholarships by getting caught underaged drinking (in the US you have to be 21). When the girl he went to prom with asked to go to a party, he dropped her off so she would arrive safely, told us where she was, and came home. We contacted her parents to let them know she was no longer with our son and had requested to go to this party, and that was the end of that. He was quite mad that the need to drink and party ruined what could have been just a really fun evening. He doesn't understand why people feel they need alcohol to have fun. I hope he holds onto that attitude as he goes to university next year...lol. But you could always do similar. Decide to go, but set boundaries for yourself and aplan for if things come up that you don't want to participate in. You could still enjoy part of the evening, and leave if you felt uncomfortable.
This only looks like a dilemma, but it's quite simple, really (and welcome!).
"Being judgmental" isn't an insult to you, I promise. It is a description of your way of thinking. Judging is neutral, we all do it, all the time.
Since Buddhism is about (in so many words) decreasing or ceasing to be of harm to yourself and others, in this effort you curb ways of thinking and behaving that cause harm (however subtle). Federica was pointing out that you were judging your cohort's behavior as 'wrong' or 'unskillful' (as in causing themselves harm). It probably is
But I think Fede's point was to cause you to stop and examine your own thinking and how it is contributing to this 'dilemma' which to our eyes is a fairly simple decision -- don't go.
Judgment used unskillfully (ie, causing harm however subtle) prevents compassion from growing within you. Judgment implies a 'division', and divisions by nature prevent compassion from growing, that is just the way the primate brain seems to work.
So avoiding drawing moral conclusions about your friend's behavior is to help YOU grow in compassion. If your overriding feeling about this party were more about compassion than separating yourself from bad influences, for instance, the solution is obvious -- don't go
I love how you are very stoic. When I'm in these situations I try not over think things. Life has a spontaneous way, don't let the concept of this party stir up muddy waters.
Your may or may not be there, either way. Be happy NOW.
This is probably bad advice, I can only talk from personal experience.
Remember we are going to die, any day. Don't worry about what you should or should not do. Go if you want, don't go if you don't want.
Either way, don't stress. Be happy and enjoy the day now.
Thank you all for your advice.
I understand now what @federica ment, or I atleast hope I am starting to grasp it, and I can see the point in not being a preacher of sorts. I need to work on that.
@Earthninja Stoicism has been a major influence on me (Epiktetos and Marcus Aurelius mostly), but really I think that's where I picked up a lot of good attitude and also a lot of bad attitude. That's how things go, isn't it?
@Hamsaka Thanks for explaining further! Really helpful.
@karasti Thanks!
I am a young person too and totally empathise with where you are coming from
! It's hard when this is the culture for people our age! I don't mean this in a harsh manner 
- but the most important thing you can do for people is not judge them for doing these things. These things exist, people do them. Here in the UK, this stuff is what people do all the time - most or all my friends, drink alcohol, go out looking for sex (the guys), do drugs, gossip...
They are still human beings who just want to be happy and free from suffering. They are trying their best with what they have. All I can do and you can do, is do what is right concerning your own behavior - maybe it will effect them, maybe it won't. A group of my friends got super excited about doing meditation and yoga with me - "you mean you can feel this way without getting high?! Wow, can you teach us?" - that's great I'd love to share that happiness with them. But I am not going to judge them, I am still going to love and accept them despite that they do drugs and drink alcohol. Another group of my friends were just not interested in anything to do with meditation or yoga. This second group were highly judgmental, gossiping, back stabbing. I found this behavior a lot more intolerable than the first group. I don't associate with these people anymore... I suppose it's considering what you can and cannot tolerate in others and the effect it has on you (that's the main thing), if being with people makes you a worse person - less compassionate and wise then they need to go.
Hmm while I am writing this I do see a split in how I see my friends behavior. It is really hard when your friends engage in things that you see as morally damaging - damaging to themselves and others. Like personally, I accept and do not judge drinking or drug taking (although it's not right for me) - but I am very strong on disliking gossip, unkindness and sleeping around. It's very hard. I think, you can't change other people's behavior but you can chose what you do and do not want to be associated with. I don't want to go out partying and drinking and I don't really want to be close friends with people who have one night stands - those just aren't my values. But at the same time I don't feel like we can really be the big moral judge - saying that that behavior is bad and they shouldn't do it. We all engage in unskilful behavior in the pursuit of happiness - we would be hypocrites to address other people in that manner. And criticism and judgement are very damaging and unhealthy too.
I guess I am still trying to figure this all out
. A group of dharma friends would be lovelyyy and we wouldn't struggle so much with these issues!
Personally, I still go to parties and out for Birthdays, Christmas outings and other things. I enjoy people's company, the affection and connection between us. It's hard to get away from anywhere and anyone smoking or drinking or gossiping, so I try to let that go and focus on the positive things
. More recently, I am getting less interested in drinking, so when I go out I am planning on drinking mocktails and just not engaging in things that negatively effect me. This is my personal choice, which may be totally different from what you feel is right for you 
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Also - this might be helpful for you
! It's different from my perspective - but I want to give you lots of ideas so you can help figure out what is right for you, your practice and what makes you the most happy with these situations! I know it's really tricky figuring it out! I'm still trying to do so myself ^_^!!
@vanilli Thanks a bunch for sharing and for the video.
You're welcome guys