Is counting of breaths method helpful?
misecmisc1
I am a HinduIndia Veteran
Hi All,
Just wanted to check from you all whether counting of breaths method is any helpful in sitting practice of either Anapanasati sutta or Zazen? i know these are two different meditations, but my meditation is no where in either direction. so i try to just sit and then try to observe the breath. My breathing pattern is too irregular in that after an in-breath, the out-breath comes immediately and is hardly noticeable most of the times and then there is a long duration when the next in-breath comes - so in a way a lot of time for thoughts to come and my ignorant mind getting entangled in thoughts - so after sometime getting passed in being entangled in thought, then a thought arises that i had to watch breath, then i try to observe the breath. The situation gets complicated as I said in another thread of mine that whenever I observe my breath, it turns from natural breathing to cautious breathing - even if i do not want to change my breath, but my focussing my attention on my breath changes my breath. Moreover, the whole sitting duration on analysis breaks down to checking my sitting posture for erect spine, momentarily noticing the breath and for more than 80% of time getting entangled in thoughts and sometimes hearing the external sounds.
As far as counting of breaths method is concerned, i heard it long back, but i never applied it - somehow, something inside my mind always contradicts this method's idea by saying that if i will count the breaths, then instead of observing the breaths i will be involving my mind in the activity of counting the breaths, so in a way adding something to the process - which zazen or just sitting as per my understanding says not to do, but just sit and observe but not try to do anything.
So just wanted to check from you all that if anyone had a prior experience with this method and whether this method is helpful in zazen meditation and in anapanasati meditation? Please suggest.
Some more details about my sitting method - i sit normal cross-legged, not full-lotus position, with eyes closed and try to observe my breath. i have been doing it for not a long time but something around 3 years with daily sitting of 30 minutes to 40 minutes with occasional break of few days of not sitting in morning due to may be traveling by train in morning- though these days on weekends, i become too lazy and sleep most of the time to relax, so these days its just 5 days a week on weekdays for sitting for 30 minutes by me before going to office. But still I am nowhere in my meditation and I still do not know how to do meditation - though i am trying to become mindful in other activities of my daily life like drinking tea, the sensation of feet when it touches the ground while walking, feeling the cold breeze when it is blowing if i am out for walking after lunch etc.
May be i am not made for meditation and so I might not be able to have any success in meditation - yes i know meditation is letting go and not achieving anything, but still may be i am not having enough patience and also expecting some calm in my meditation for insight to generate. but still i try to sit. There is no monastry near my work-city and I do not have time to go and find a teacher to give me meditation instructions, leave about going to a monastry to ask a teacher.
Any suggestions please. Thanks in advance.
Comments
I suggest you quit over-thinking things, ask fewer questions and just 'sit' more.
Your mental machinations must be agony.
How you sit, how you breathe, how you 'feel' - it's all up to you, but let it flow naturally.
Why not just let go and let be?
I was originally taught to count breaths, but dropped it a long time ago. Some teachers recommend it and other's don't. Pros and cons really.
Why not just try it and see? The simplest approach I know of is a straight 1 to 10 count and then repeat, but there are others.
Can you please list some pros and cons of counting breath method?
One thing which I think can go as a cons or negative thing is while counting the breath, the focus can go more onto counting than being properly aware of the complete in-breath and complete out-breath.
What are the different counting methods, which could be applied and any counting method having more benefit over other counting methods, if there may be such a thing like this - so just asking. Please suggest. Thanks in advance.
The main pro is that counting can help to maintain attention on the breathing, though some people will drop the counting anyway when basic mindfulness has been attained. The main con is that the practice can become mindfulness of numbers!
They're lots of information on the internet, but if you're going to try counting I would suggest a simple approach like counting 1 to 10 on the in-breath and then repeating.
I find that these days counting is helpful if I'm distracted. Counting the breath help bring me back to it.
Sometimes I count in my head - one, two, three, ....... and sometimes I visualize the numbers instead of maintaining an inner dialog.
OP, there are different methods for watching the breath. However, if you're having trouble focussing, that is--quieting the mind, I would suggest for you the slow-breathing exercise. Instead of counting your natural breaths, you deliberately slow down your breath as much as possible; you control it. Bringing it in very slowly, and watching it in your mind's eye as it enters your nose, passing down through your throat, past your lungs (don't fill your lungs) to your diaphragm, and push down your diaphragm. Imagine that you're pushing the breath into your belly. Hold it there for 2 seconds, then let it slowly rise, watching it in your mind's eye. Imagine, as it exits your nose or mouth, that it's swirling out in little clouds, floating off into the distance. Push the last of it out, hold 2 seconds, then repeat.
What this does is turn off the stress hormones that are at the root of the busy mind, and turn on the calming parasympathetic nervous system, thereby facilitating meditation. It quiets the body/mind. So instead of counting breaths, with this method you focus on the breath by watching it enter the body, pass down to the belly, then rise, and exit. When you get used to this, you should be able to slow your breathing to 2-3 breaths per minute.
Try it a few times and see if it helps.
Oh dear, I fear that won't help at all...
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/22273/still-not-able-to-observe-natural-breathing#latest
you answered your own question
So short answer, nothing wrong with counting breaths, say to 5 and start over. For goodness sake don't keep counting forever (one hundred and one....one hundred and two...)
Then as a change of pace, you can try subvocalizing "Om" or "Um" on the outgoing breath.
Counting breaths is supposed to help keep you focused and give that chattering monkey in your brain something to do to help discipline it a bit.
well the purpose of counting your breaths is to practice focus and concentration, so breathing in an unnatural way isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as you're still getting enough oxygen.
I always breathe in through my nose and out through my mouth when meditating. It's just habit now, but I remember almost getting a high from it at first, I couldn't say why, but I'd try that, it'll make the breaths more easily distinguishable.
I also like to count in one, out one, up to five, then start over up to six, then to seven, and I'll go to ten, but it's taken practice to be able to. The main thing is to just not stress about it. Don't worry when you forget what number you're on, just start over.
Breath deeply and slowly, and your body will automatically calm itself and it won't feel like such a struggle.
Hello @laurarux, nice to see you... took you a while, but at least you got here! Welcome....!
Don't spoil what you have by lamenting what you don't have. And remember that whatever you have if you didn't have it you would be lamenting and wishing to have.
I do say that the point of meditation isn't gain and loss. But there is room to feel good and reinforce all the positive qualities. Uncover your heart of generosity and 'play'.
So I would recommend whatever you do to do it with a light generous heart. You can even grump around with that heart if you catch yourself. It's interesting. Is letting go to equanimity 'gaining'? By the definition of equanimity it is not. But in the experience the heart (you) is sensitive and rejoices at equinimity. At the same time grasping at that feeling is NOT equanimity and leads to suffering. Interesting isn't it?
This is the definition of Mara. The ego cuts in and tries to steal spiritual victories. So you have a moment when the conditions fueling grasping peel away to equanimity. Then ego cuts in and says 'let's get more of that'. This mentation is not a problem if it is disempowered as just thinking. But it is so seductive to want to get pleasure and avoid pain. And chase that.
Counting breath is a fine method if your mind tends to be busy.
Why bother counting - and I'm not being controversial or trying to be contra -anything, but I would suggest you stop counting breaths and start counting the times when you have forgotten to count breaths - and when you've forgotten this start counting how many times you have forgotten, that you have forgotten this, and so on
here is my counting habit in reverse: 8,5,3,2,1,1,0 - I think I just lose attention - what do you think?
@misecmisc1 OK, here's what you said on your earlier thread, that Federica linked in her post:
I am still not able to observe my natural breathing - may be I am a totally hopeless case at anapanasati breath meditation or zazen just sitting. I sit cross-legged in normal sitting position with eyes closed.
Actually whenever I try to observe my natural breathing, I cannot help but manipulate it - even though I wish not to change it or I wish not to cautiously breath, but still when I observe my natural breathing it does get changed. When I try to see something else say like a wall or anything, then after sometime I can feel my natural breath, but at that time I am just seeing the wall, so then when I try to observe the natural breathing, by turning my focus on my breathing, then it start getting changed or turn into cautious breathing.*
So what I'm suggesting, is that if your meditation method of using natural breath isn't working for you, why not try a different method, just to see if it helps you? Toss the idea of natural breath, and go for controlled breath (it's very easy, really), combined with watching (visualizing) the breath, and see where that gets you.
There are other meditation objects, traditionally a list of 40, including the kasinas.
I used to use a blue disc, one of the colour kasinas.
And some meditations don't use a single object of concentration.
My advice would be to forget the breath entirely.
DO NOT focus on the breath. leave it be.
Sit in a dark room.
Light a candle.
Focus entirely on looking at the flame for ten seconds or so.
Close your eyes.
You will see a 'negative' image of the flame.
Focus on THAT, and only that, until it is completely faded and disappeared.
Repeat 2 more times.
That's it.
Don't 'think' about doing it, add no commentary, about the flame fading, or anything.
Just sit in silence and 'calm abiding' and watch the flame fade, as your eyes stay closed.
i tried counting breath method today. i went from 1 to 8, but i was feeling heavy with the task of numbering in my mind and the numbers seemed to be more important than breathing - moreover, i noticed since i was saying the numbers while breathing, i had to breath more frequently than it happens if i do not count - i read somewhere thinking needs energy and may be when i was counting, since it needed energy, so i need to breath slightly more frequently than when i do not count. Moreover, when i was saying the number in my mind at that time i was not observing the breath. But on a positive side i felt that i was more with the breath and at least till the time i counted from 1 to 8, during that duration no other thought came to my mind. But then i was feeling like i was doing some heavy task, so i stopped counting breath and then tried to be aware of the breath. Then again back to the usual routine. Moreover my sitting posture seems to be dropping constantly or having a toughness with a slight pain when i try to sit erect - so the remaining time most of the time i was noticing my body's posture and trying to keep the spine erect. i was sitting in normal cross-legged posture with eyes closed, sitting on a mat which elevated my hips slightly, so that the legs were slanting downwards toward the floor. so i am back to square one i.e. from where i started and this seems to continue.
Should i stop doing sitting meditation completely?
No, just try a different meditation object, maybe something with eyes open.
@misecmisc1
One zen view!
A good reason to choose the breath as a focus in meditation is it's always available to us but it's major purpose is to widen our myopic view from our mentality to the other more physical sense gates.
A common limitation is allowing the focus on the breath be primarily your thought of your breath as opposed to what you actually feel of your breath. (What you actually hear and taste and smell and feel of your breath)
The counting is simply meant to bring some sequential awareness to the process, as opposed to dragging your mentality back into alpha dominance again.
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The point is not to suppress thoughts any more than what you see or hear or smell or taste or feel. The point is to not attach to them by clinging onto them, pushing them away or ignoring them. It is just to observe them freely arise, live and pass on where we would otherwise have been pandering to our conditioned impulses to manipulate them.
Outstanding advice from @how.
Feel the breath rather than think the breath. Good plan. Count the joy, sing the breath. Enough already with the 'grit the teeth and force the mind'. Mind the joy. Be kind to your Count.
When my eyes are open, i can't help but keep getting distracted with the sights, even if i am watching a plain wall. also that keeping the eyes half-open and gazing at something like 1 feet or so down the ground - this method also does not help me, as somehow i try to keep not getting distracted from sights, try relaxing my gaze and within 2 to 3 minutes, my head feels so heavy that then i close my eyes and sit. So most of the time I sit with my eyes closed.
@how: Thanks for your above reply. I tried those methods of feeling the air coming at nose-tip or on the upper side of lip, but this does not work for me as i am not able to notice the sensation of air coming in at tip of nose or on upper side of lip. But what i try to observe is that knowing which knows that i am breathing - it is difficult to tell, but somehow i am aware when i am breathing in and when i am breathing out - though since in my natural breathing, the out-breath is almost insignificant most of the times, i try to be aware of whatever i can of the out-breath. Will this method help - or - I need to count the breaths, though counting the breaths method leads me to give more focus on counting than observing the natural breath? So please suggest. Thanks in advance.
Instead of failing at every turn (o so it seems to be you are telling us!) why don't you tell us what you are trying to achieve, exactly?
@misecmisc1
Use then the sensation of your lungs expanding and contracting or of your diaphragm's rising and falling. If you add a mental numbering to your breaths, do not have it be so strong as to become a mental substitute for your awareness of the sensation of your breathing.
Your attachment to your mentality will remain all encompassing until your other senses are given a chance to be equally seen on your meditation's stage. Your mentality will not relinquish any part of it's current solo performance on that stage unless you are actually willing to do so. Advice only points the way and is useless without also developing the will to implement it.
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take another look at Federica's post above this one.
in gassho
You're over-thinking this and making it much more complicated than it needs to be.
Adopt a kind accepting approach. Just feel the breath ( doesn't matter where ) and try to keep your attention on it. Forget counting, it's more trouble than it's worth.
When the mind wanders gently return attention to the breath and let the thoughts pass.
That's all you need to do! Nothing more, nothing less. The mind will calm in it's own time.
Whatever you need to do to tie that monkey down is what it boils down to.
Simplicity is often the best solution.