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News article: Thai Buddhist tiger temple raided, tigers and birds confiscated
karasti
BreathingMinnesota Moderator
I've seen a lot of pictures out of this place, and while the pictures are kind of "awww" inducing, I'm glad they finally did something about it.
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Interesting. The article barely mentions that the Tiger Temple is actually a Buddhist Temple which is operated by Theravadan monks.
Sad that it sounds like they believe the temple was breeding and trafficing the animals
I never really felt comfortable with how they treat the tigers, chaining them up and having so many of them just wandering the grounds. It's quite frowned upon from most animal protection groups (and I'm not talking about peta, lol) like the big cat sanctuaries to have people cuddling and taking photos with big cats, or other animals as well. So while I didn't approve of what they did, I tried to allow some leeway due to cultural differences. But the trafficing is unfortunate. Even if it is still largely cultural. Not good ways to treat sentient being, and I'm interested in knowing how they justify it. Of course, a lot of monks do things we don't think are very becoming of them, so I'm not singling them out. Just interested in how they justify this.
I'm only guessing, but in Indonesia tigers are endangered (I think). Perhaps that is how they justify it?
That could be. I wonder what they trafficked them for. Circuses? Hopefully not something even more nefarious than that.
It had been a while since I read much about them. But -- and I know this is a nasty thing to say -- but very close to reality -- "many" Thais have a world that revolves around ka-ching! I used to say that you could "buy anything" in Bangkok...and I really meant it.
I love tigers.
They are so naughty. They eat Buddhas . . .
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/50191.html
Hmph. I'm all for dismantling what is cruel to sentient animals.
How do we know that those who busted this operation are any better? That's an honest question (albeit cynical). And to be honest, I see nothing wrong with PROPER zoos or habitats or sanctuaries. I think these may be the only ways we can preserve these beautiful creatures, with humans committed to their stewardship.
I don't see anything wrong with sanctuaries and such, either. I'm on the fence about zoos. I guess I haven't really decided, just because I kind of think "are we really preserving them if they live their lives captive bred in a cage/habitat much too small for them with children wiping their sticky fingers on the windows?" I don't know. I haven't arrived at a full conclusion on that one, yet. What will happen to these tigers? Will where they go truly be better than where they were? Or will it be a situation that we see all too often here where they are "rescued" only to be euthanized? I sure hope not.
I'm on the fence about zoos too, if they are like what you describe especially. Living in a small painted/paper mache' habitat is disgusting to me too, for most critters. A big ole boa probably wouldn't mind, if they could find a sunny rock with a nice place to hide behind and a fat rat every four or five days, they wouldn't want to leave, except perhaps to mate.
I read "The Life of Pi" before it became a movie, and in the first chapter the book goes into more detail about the family's zoo. Pi opines at length about the debate about whether zoos are 'good' or bad and makes a very convincing case for why zoos (at least theoretically) are GOOD for the wild animals in them. I wish I could remember some of this to quote it, but basically Pi contrasted living in the wild against the vaccinated, 'safe', spacious and readily provided food of a good zoo. No crossing hundreds of miles of desert populated with tigers and leopards and lions to get to the muddy remnants of liquid water. Little or no disease and parasites. Top o' the line medical care, and getting better and better is our 'empathy' with animals we rescue. Wild birds are fed with hand puppets that look like their Mamas so they'll better integrate with their peers. People wear orangutan suits to raise an orphaned or rejected newborn orang, so it won't remain dependent on humans. I mean, it's a start. People are beginning to at least TRY and understand what is best for the animal, rather than exploiting it for our entertainment.
A human managed sanctuary is more ideal than the savannah, if species propagation is the key. Evolution would agree, and perhaps this is where we properly become agents of evolution as humans, to caretake our fellow sentients? Just an idea that's been in my head lately.
Good points, I really need to read that book
But how much of that is us putting what we believe to be comfortable life on an animal? Do they appreciate all those things like we assume they do? Or would they more appreciate living totally free even with the downfalls and struggle of being wild? Something I suppose we'll never know. I guy I know who is a world famous bear researcher has a quote I keep in mind that is "What makes bear sense, doesn't always make human sense."
A few years ago, a zoo near us was horribly flooded in a freak rain event. The seals were swimming out on the streets! Thankfully they were rescued and sent to other zoos, including a polar bear. The zoo will not get them back, because now that their habitat was destroyed, they have to meet new requirements to rebuild it and it would cost so much they can't afford it. So on the plus side, requirements are consistently updated, but sadly, the animals were living in a space much too small for them for many years.
At another zoo we go to fairly often in North Dakota, they had (1 recently died) 2 grizzly bears who shared a space smaller than our house for decades when in the wild, it's generally accepted that bears keep a range of about 5-10 square miles per bear. It does vary based on the gender (males have a much larger home range) and food availability. So when I think about it that way, I feel bad for a bear who is in a space smaller than our house (about 1600 sq feet) and has a pool the size of a large bathtub.
Also, when we are trying to save animals from extinction by confining them to zoos, is that really saving them as a species? To me not being extinct means being wild. Zoos are a conflicting thing for me for sure. Circuses though are pretty much right out. I took my oldest son about 13 years ago, and we have never gone back. Their childhoods are relatively un-scarred as a result.
@Karasti said:
That is such a great point. All of what you said.
I was watching (another) documentary the other night about space probes and how we sent out the Voyager with the 'golden record' of Earth languages and a picture of a man/woman, symbols, and (creepiest of all) how to find us (as if they don't already know). Anyway, in this docu they discussed HOW we might communicate with a truly alien intelligence, and compared that to how we can't even communicate effectively with dolphins or whales, who have some language, and they are in our own biosphere.
Only recently has humankind as a whole even CARED about what's happening inside our fellow sentients. Apparently even plants can communicate with molecules to each other. So how would we know if a leopard in a nice sanctuary is content? Does he know there are boundaries to his world? He'd have to be able to abstract, and so far we seem to be the only creatures plagued with this ability.
I go off on these thought spirals about my 'pets' too. My African Grey parrot Axel was hatched at a breeder, hand fed by humans, and utterly imprinted on humans. He's never had another Grey companion. I got him when he was fifteen years old btw. I've allowed his flight feathers to grow out, but he doesn't know he can fly. Does he know he SHOULD be able to fly? I doubt it. The only time he flies is when something spooks him and instinct takes over (and then it is just mad flapping). He has a special plastic pill bottle that is . . . um, his 'girlfriend'. He enjoys watching other parrots on Youtube, but then I wonder if I'm creating something . . . negative in him. If he was turned loose in the Congo he'd die in a matter of days. Same with my flightless waddling geese, my outdoor 'pets'. Every year in the Fall, they utilize a spot in the front pasture as a runway and run flapping up and down it as if they are trying to migrate south. Does this make them, I don't know, grieve that they can't take to the air? I have a friend with a fully flighted Canada goose he found as a gosling. This goose could fly or migrate, but he hasn't in five years.
Is it even OK, in the Buddhist sense of things, to domesticate animals? We humans suffer from depression and anxiety due to our own 'domestication' and conditioning that enables civilization.
Maybe it's important just that we ask or wonder about this, and maybe we need things like PETA to 'push back' against the rest of us, just to ensure we don't go too far in either direction.
I have the same questions about my pets. They seem to bring us so many benefits, the least of which is certainly not seeking to understand them and protect them. We have 5 pets, I enjoy them all very much. Some I feel worse for than others, and I doubt we will continue to acquire those kinds of pets as a result. We have a dog (a crazy neurotic Boxer, lol), a Russian tortoise, a leopard gecko, and 2 ferrets. Obviously our dog likewise couldn't survive in the wild, probably not more than 24 hours where we live. She seems to have a pretty happy life, she only acts as if something is missing when one of the kids is gone. The ferrets I'm not sure about yet. But the tortoise and lizard, they live in enclosed tanks, really have next to no freedom. Sure, they have a ready food supply, and the tortoise we do take out to run loose in the yard (with supervision since we have eagles and owls here). They don't dodge predators or cars or deforestation. They were bred, so they don't know otherwise.
But on that end, I have developed a personal conflict over "owning" animals. I guess I am not so sure that is my right. Obviously our dog is pretty far removed from anything resembling a wild dog. The tortoise and gecko not so much. I don't know that I like supporting the capture and eventual breeding and sale of animals...for so many reasons.
I think I can do better having plants, they have friends nearby if they seem to like that, lol, the spend half the year outside being more "wild" and there is a mutual health exchange for air. So my future focus might be on plants rather than animals. I always feel bad for animals in petshops, because 90% of the people who buy them don't know how to care for them and they end up ill and suffering and then they die. So I always feel this responsibility to save them, since we know how to care for most of them (birds are beyond my scope, but I've had pretty much everything else over the years). I don't, of course. So that causes me a conflict, too. Obviously I know doing so just increases horrible breeding practices that pet shops tend to support. I try to just avoid pet shops all together these days.
I don't know what the answer is, obviously, lol. I just know that it increasingly doesn't feel right for me to "own" at least certain types of animals as pets anymore. At least with our dog, and maybe the ferrets, it seems there is some mutual benefit. But the lizard and the tortoise don't get much of anything out of it. Then again, maybe they are working on karma, who knows.
There have been doubts and complaints about that Tiger Temple for a long time. Be nice if the authorities actually do something about it.