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Lying in a relationship
Jeffrey
Veteran
I have lied about saying we will be together forever (for which I have no idea). I don't know if I as the author would lie to the point of going to bed with another woman. I tend to think I would not but the urge of the loins is pretty strong so I don't know. I realize there are other Buddhists here with relationships so I was wondering how it is for you with your relationship what with the precepts.
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I believe that it depends upon what type of relationship you ultimately want.
I am fortunate in that my wife is my best friend. I can and do tell her everything, warts and all.
I was a very big liar as a kid. But not so much to not get in trouble, which was rare anyhow, but to protect myself. I was then, and still am, a very private person with my feelings. My mom is very open with hers, and it drove her nuts that I was not so open. She pried, I shut down, and I lied to get her off my case about talking about things I felt were not her business. I know now, of course, it was just because she cared, because she worried. I don't lie so much anymore, but there are a lot of things I opt not to share so I am not in the position of having to lie about it. I don't feel like I should have to share everything, so I don't. If other people don't respect that, I don't always know how to handle it, so I lie to get them off my back. Not the most skillful, and really, not something that comes up much anymore. My mom realizes I need my space and is more willing to give it to me now that I am 40...lol.
I have a son that is just like me. It's maddening
Lies even when he knows he's going to get caught, lies about silly stuff. I don't get it. But I try to remain compassionate because I understand that place, to a degree.
Now, as far as my husband, honestly, I don't lie to him. I never felt a reason to. I might not tell him everything right that moment, but I will be honest and tell him "I don't know what I think right now, I need some time to process and then I will share." And I do. We have a very open and honest relationship. I'm sure there are white lies that float around here and there, but I can't think of the last time I told him a lie, even a very small one.
Of course, what does one consider to be lying? Am I technically lying when my 6 year old says "Eli told me Santa isn't real (Eli is the 12 year old brother). Is he real?" and I tell him that "Yes, Santa is real." Of course I am lying. But as with all things, intent matters too, and totally honestly, I believe in the spirit of Santa and what he represents. I believe in the magic of wishing for something and having it appear. It happens to me still, even if it doesn't come from Santa under the Christmas tree. I pretty much stick to the truth these days. But it depends where you look, lol.
I think having a clear conscience is always a good call.
In fact, you do know how you feel about it. Tell a lie and, mindfully, scan your body. You certainly will have a physical feedback from your emotions. Does it feel good? Does it feel bad? This possibly could help you out with the question
@dantepw good point! yes, indeed, how you feel is a big clue to whether you are doing right or wrong. If you know how to pay attention to those signals, they are a hug help!
@karasti exactly! I am glad we agree on that.
I think you have to have the fortune of being with someone where it's okay to tell the truth and not genuinely in your best interests to lie. Overall I don't lie because I don't see the point in being in that kind of relationship - it's shallow, it's sham - why lie? And as has been mentioned, do you feel good? No.
I suppose I lie by omission and since getting into Buddhism I notice little tiny white lies - but I don't know how truly bad they are...
Just basically I think find someone where things are simple and who you can trust then what would ever be the need or point in lying. From a selfish standpoint the longterm gain of having a loving and open based on honestly is better than any short term gain we may get from lying.
I do believe that the writer of the article is completely off base, especially when you consider the fourth precept. That said, I think it's very important to keep in mind @Federica's three gates:
Is it true?
Is it kind?
Is it necessary?
Without these, it would be quite possible to spout off some truly hurtful comments, while being absolutely truthful. There are some things I've held back from my fiancee because I believe that while they are absolutely true, would be extremely unkind. So I don't say them, and if a potentially hurtful topic comes up, I steer the conversation away from it without lying.
My husband is also my best friend.
We have been married for almost sixteen years, but met long before, back in 1990.
We talk about everything, though we all have a part of ourselves that we keep to ourselves.
I am not the lying type, but I am not the type that feels she has to share everything, either.
I am very respectful of people's privacy and content myself with the information people are ready to share.
That used to drive my husband crazy at the beginning of our relationship because he's a bit jealous and possessive, and he loved to pop the dull "what are you thinking?" question now and then.
I don't feel I have to know everything he thinks and feels 24/7, and expect the same treatment in return.
I also feel that my opinion is not a universal truth carved in stone, so the fact that I think something about someone does not mean that the person is actually so.
It's just my viewpoint.
So I share my opinion only when the person really asks for it.
@DhammaDragon
The last time my partner complained about my thoughts after she didn't like my answer to her question about what I was thinking..
I responded with "I feel no more responsible for my thoughts than I do for my dreams.
My job is just to not manipulate them on their journey past my awareness."
It's been a week and I suspect she is still working on a response.
How to have fun with PC Buddhist thought when partnered with another Buddhist.
I'll be honest (pun intended), I think anyone who says they NEVER lie, is lying or leading a remarkably sheltered life.
^^Well, @how, I think if you ask for someone's thoughts, you have to be ready to accept the answer, even if you don't like what you're about to hear.
Anyway, I know that if I want to hear an honest answer, I'd better ask my son rather than my husband.
My husband, just in case, always skirsts on the safe side with his answers.
A couple of months ago, I was all over-produced to attend a party and my son was dazed.
"Mom, you look sooo beautiful!!," he kept repeating.
When my self-esteem could not top any higher, he suddenly snapped "But I am not in love."
"Of course you're not in love," I said to him, "I'm your mother..."
-"No. You're old,"
We might not be responsible for which thoughts arise, and what they are in any given moment. But we certainly are responsible for whether or not we share them. Teaching my aspie kid this has been incredibly difficult. He verbalizes all his thoughts, some of which are inappropriate and should be expected to cause upheaval. Then he uses what he has heard when I have talked about Buddhist concepts to excuse his behavior, lol. Doesn't really work that way. We're always responsible for what we put out into the world.
I always remind my son of the "You are slave to your words and master of your silence" stuff when he feels over ready to share a sincere piece of his mind.
@DhammaDragon
Yes...Lowered expectations can be an art form.
When I get the old, "Does this dress make me look fat?", I see the grenade rolling across the floor and take one for the team.
The correct response is, "anything tight and short works for me." Most of the potential collateral damage is contained.
This just confirms her view that I suffer from chronic sexist buffoonery and am not to trusted on fashion advise. A repeat on that question might not be seen for months.
While such a diversion drops me somewhat down the evolutionary ladder, it is not as much of a drop that a direct answer would likely take me.
Exactly so.
Part of adulthood is knowing what to withhold, what someone expects to hear, what somone has the capacity to hear and what is courtesy. That takes integrity, which takes precedence over childish notions of 'the truth'.
Complete honesty is niavity manifested. Next we will be telling the Jataka tales to adults . . .
PS. Mind you, I really am a lobster.
I'm really a talking blue heron
@vinlyn, I agree. I'm not sure it's possible to never, ever tell a single lie. I think it would be pretty hard. Sometimes my dad calls and asks if I am busy and I tell him no, even though I just paused my yoga video to answer the phone. The yoga can be paused. I'd rather talk to my dad while he is still here. It's still technically a lie.
It is the truth. You are not busy. It is the real truth which is kinder.
I hear ya @karasti. I have been trying to explain to my aspie daughter that it's not ok to say she wants to kill me (she just drops it very matter of factly every now and again).
A few weeks ago after I had told her she shouldn't say it, she said very thoughtfully to me "Hmmmmmm......daddy, I am trying to think of a way of getting rid of you without killing you!"
I sleep with a gun under my bed.......
Good point @lobster
Thanks for that perspective!
@Bunks, lol. Mine has a bit of a superiority complex. In his mind, everyone who does things differently than him are just stupid. He goes to college in the fall, I think his first roommate experience is going to be earth shaking for him. That said, he has made a lot of strides in the past few years, so hopefully things go ok.
However, despite his logic and taking all of life very literally, lying never, ever occurs to him. I honestly cannot think of a single time he has outright, deceptively, lied to anyone. It just doesn't occur to him to do so. But that leaves to a lot of situations where he should have some tact and perhaps a little lying, and it doesn't cross his mind. So when someone asks him "why don't you want to do this?" He'll just say "Because I don't like you." So that adds other challenges on the flip side lying. His lack of lying and sneaking have made him quite an easy kid to raise in that aspect. He's never cruel, he's never a bully. He's just overly honest. There have been times when he was younger where he broke a rule, and would walk in the door and just tell me he did it. When he was younger, he had a BB gun, and we went over and over the rules about what was ok to shoot at (basically just targets at the shooting range, nothing else). he came home one day and said "I shot at the water tower. But only because it wasn't on the list of things you told me not to shoot at." Touche. Rule setting has been a challenge, lol.
There is a coffee advert (plain, simple no-frills down-to-earth great coffee) in which a girl in a shop, trying a dress, looks in the mirror, and asks her friend that question.
The friend, without missing a beat (and sipping a cup of takeaway coffee of the above type), replies,
"No. Your FAT makes you look fat."
There's honesty for you.
Ad as for that "What are you thinking?" "nothing...." moment....
Have a laugh on me, guys!
It took me a long time to learn.
The white lie, The Good Lie - also available as an excellent film not really starring Reece Witherspoon . . .
Aim for integrity not obtuse bluntness or autistic dharma.
Noble Silence, where the mind is seething is dishonest BUT may be the best we can manage.
In time our expression tunes in with Truth which has some very interesting implications . . .
This is me you are describing and my eldest son. I still get upset when my spouse delivers some made up excuse to something she got wrong. I mean its not as if I cannot read her after 15 years...
...Alright I cannot most of the time. And what the darn should I get for her b-day? Gods help me if I get that one wrong.
But sometimes she is darn obvious.
And the best part of not lying too often is that when you do nobody suspects you to.
Depends on what we mean by "lying". If it is about facts and actions, then I don't think it's justifiable often, if ever. For instance, saying I was at work late when in reality I was partying with friends. Or saying that I lost the money, even though in reality I spent it on a bottle of whisky. Sexual infidelity also goes into this category.
When we get to thinking or feeling, though, it gets tricky. For instance, as a young-ish man, I find lots of women very attractive but it probably wouldn't be constructive to tell my wife: hey, that woman is really hot. Or, if I don't like something about my partner's family, it wouldn't serve any purpose to criticize family member X, unless X is directly affecting me. So when it comes to thinking and feeling, I do believe that a degree of being private, even concealing, if you will, is inevitable.
Even so, keeping stuff to oneself comes at a cost. I believe that a thought or feeling that is unexpressed sinks into some sort of subconsciousness and adversely affects one's inner piece and outer functioning. I believe that if there is too much suppression going on, mental health will suffer. Therefore, if there's too much of keeping-stuff-to-myself going on in a relationship, I have to wonder where that relationship is going and, ultimately, whether preserving it is correct action. Whenever I find that I'm walking on eggshells in my own relationship, I try to force whatever issues are involved, and as unpleasant as that process is, I've always found the "war" worth it.
In our gut most of us probably dream of such level of intimacy where one's soul is bare before the other and vice versa. Most of us just kind of know that is the greatest happiness that exists. Ideals are not always attainable but striving for one is probably the best we can do. Needless to say, the more sincere and open the partners are, the closer to this particular ideal.
I think it depends a lot on what you mean by suppressing thoughts. It is one thing to continually suppress thoughts and feelings about how your spouse's mother is treating you, and continue to hold it in and not deal with it or bring it into the open. It's another thing to not give voice to every random thought. Letting them float off as unimportant thoughts is ok, and rather even probably healthy for a person. However, is it really going to hurt you to keep your "that woman is hot!" comments to yourself, even forever? Not likely.
Was Sidharta Gautama guilty of lying by omission for (supposedly) not telling his wife he was off to seek the life of a mendicant....?
As an Enlightened being, he probably looked back on this incident and did not fret about it in hindsight, because he was by then, aware that the decision had been a fruitful and positive one.
But one can only speculate at how it must have made him feel at the time....
I don't think that saying you will be together forever is a lie unless you feel like it is deep down. Nobody knows the future, so words like that are really just expressing the hope that you feel in the moment.
I'm also apparently a terrible liar. I do try to tell fake lies often to see if i can fool her, but my gf catches me every time. ("I have to go to the bathroom..." "Oh, I forgot to tell you, the toilet's broken..." Stupid stuff like that. She says I get a really derpy look when I lie, like I just told a punchline to a joke. Someday I'll get her!)
fake lies = truth
game on . . .
We haz plan . . .
I have banged on about this, but I can't remember if I've banged on about this here, or elsewhere, so you'll just have to be tolerant...
Many years ago, I was privileged enough to work closely with a Relationships organisation. It taught me a huge amount about the different aspects and tangents, and I underwent a preliminary training course with a view to actually qualifying (internally) as one of their Counsellors. 2 weeks off the 'Final Exam' and we moved abroad, so I never finished the course, but during those 6 months, I picked up a huge amount.
I forget how precisely this came about, but during discussion and education sessions, we narrowed down to three, the basic essential vital qualities or attributes absolutely necessary to maintaining a healthy relationship. As I recall, I drew an analogous picture to illustrate exactly how vital each attribute was, to the health and well-being of a Relationship.
The three Vital Components are:
Communication (effective and productive)
Respect (both for partner AND for self) and
Trust
I illustrated the above, by drawing a tripod. This tripod supported a small dish (the Relationship) wherein all the different aspects of that relationship, were cradled. The Bunsen burner beneath, added the passion (as the flame is adjustable....
)
Now the important thing to note about this tripod, is that (as is the case with any tripod) if you remove, break or damage one of the legs, the other two cannot successfully sustain and support the relationship on their own. In fact, they too will suffer strain, tension and be faulty...
If Communication isn't effective, productive and constructive, it doesn't matter how much you respect and trust your partner, nothing will be successfully resolved.
If you have no Respect for them, or you lack self-respect, the other two simply won't suffice, and indeed, will collapse...
And Trust?
Trust is The biggie.
This one, is H-U-G-E.
This one, is the most difficult to remedy.
It's like having a priceless piece of antique porcelain. And one day, it gets chipped.
No matter how expert and 'invisible' the repair - It's damaged, the value is reduced, and you know - YOU know - it's faulty, even if the repair seems perfect.
It's never, ever as good as new.
And that's what Lying does to a relationship.
It causes the tripod to collapse.
And getting it to stand up again, takes a huge amount of work, from both parties.
I'm not talking about 'the little white lies'.
I'm talking about serious deceit. The betrayal of Trust laughs at Communication and scoffs at Respect.
Hence the gargantuan task of the re-build....
It is a game. And I would suggest play is healthy.
Just read the article in the original post and it is about deceit - nasty.
Federica describes the importance of Trust in the above triad. Deceit is . . . well you decide . . .
It seems it could be tricky to sometimes determine what is deceit/untruthfulness. I have been thinking about this "situation" in the US where one of our major and long time news anchors has been suspended from his job for 6 months for lying about an incident 12 years ago. But after listening to the pilot speak and seeing the video I wonder if he truly lied out of deception or out of perception. Does it matter? Does how a lie came about or why it happened matter? In this case, he had supposedly said that his helicopter was shot by a rocket in Iraq. It wasn't true. But his copter was shot at, and hit,by bullets. I'm sure in the situation it was terrifying. Only he knows if he embellished and lied to the public to make it a better story. But I could also see being in the situation and having a perception based on emotion in the moment.
My partner of 10 years (not my husband) cheated on my many years ago. We tried to make it work but the trust wasn't there and it didn't last a couple years afterwards. I got so angry because he pretended to not realize that what he did would hurt me. He came home at 5am after I was up all night, worried, with our newborn son. He said "I'd never do anything to hurt you." Well, clearly he would! But a number of years later (and I was still too angry at everything he did over the years to have constructive discussion about it) he was diagnosed with Asperger's. Our oldest son also has it. If I had known then what I know now, our relationship would have probably been very different. He didn't lie out of deception, which is what I felt. But he also didn't realize what was going on and it didn't know how to work with the world he was living in. He didn't understand what he did wrong and why I was upset, only that I was and it was his fault. It was not a true deception on his part, but a lack of social understanding.
So I guess to me, it's no longer as simple as "well, did they lie or not? Were they deceitful?" because even where the story clearly is not in line with what really happened, it's not always out of true deceit, either. It's pretty tough to figure that out sometimes.