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Teachings on the twelve links of dependent origination
nakazcid
Somewhere in Dixie, y'all Veteran
Can anyone recommend some online resources for understanding the twelve links? We're studying the Heart Sutra in my sangha, and this topic is covered very briefly in the book we're reading. How do the links lead to one another? How does ignorance lead to volitional actions, etc? How does reversing the links lead to enlightenment?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nidānas
no joke.
I have found Linda Blanchard's explanation pretty good.
She posts frequently on the Secular Buddhism forum and wrote a book on DO:
http://secularbuddhism.org/2012/06/07/a-secular-understanding-of-dependent-arising-table-of-contents/
Otherwise, this cheatsheet from Buddhanet comes always handy:
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot05.htm
Thanks @Victorious and @DhammaDragon. The Wikipedia article doesn't really illuminate the linear relationship between the links in a straightforward way. However, it did lead me to a book called In the Words of the Buddha by Bhikku Bodhi, which has a brief summary on pg. 315 or thereabouts that helps, but isn't quite what I'm looking for.
@DhammaDragon, I was hoping for a religious interpretation before I try reading the secular spin on dependent origination. I'll go through it, though, and hope it doesn't confuse me too much. EDIT: The part on ignorance is quite good. I hope the birth, aging and death sections don't focus solely on the secular perspective.
I understand you are looking for the basics. But in reality there is no linearity.
I am still learning the DO but if I might give you a couple of hints.
Look for the translations of the pali words and how they are used in the suttas.
Even if the Wikipedia article is a good start the translation of for example volitional action is questionable fabrications is better.
The text you mentioned is a good start to find suttas. There are several suttas and texts on the DO at accesstoinsight.org
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/search_results.html?cx=015061908441090246348:dj4lxnh4dda&cof=FORID:9;NB:1&ie=UTF-8&q=Dependent+Origination&sa=Search
The only real way to understand the DO is to recognize the description in your self through contemplation.
There are two major divisions on how to understand the DO.
Focus on the last. Is my advice.
Leave Karma the H* out of understanding it at least at first. But Becoming (Bhava) is a tricky one. Let me know if you figure it out.
Thanks
Victor
@nakazcid
Try googling
Rev Koshin and dependent origination. A booklet available on line.
It is a pretty practical Buddhist interpretation.
Youtube is a good source too. Try searching.
This one has been recommended earlier.
I thought it was ok.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html
This is one of the most profound discourses in the Pali canon. It gives an extended treatment of the teachings of dependent co-arising (paticca samuppada) and not-self (anatta) in an outlined context of how these teachings function in practice.
The first part of the discourse takes the factors of dependent co-arising in sequence from effect to cause, tracing them down to the mutual dependency of name-and-form (mental and physical activity) on the one hand, and consciousness on the other. In connection with this point, it is worth noting that the word "great" in the title of the discourse may have a double meaning: modifying the word "discourse" — it's a long discourse — and modifying "causes," referring to the fact that name-and-form and consciousness as causal factors can account for everything describable in the cosmos.
After tracing the basic sequence of factors in the causal pattern, the discourse then reviews their inter-relationships, showing how they can explain stress and suffering both on the individual and on the social level.
The second part of the discourse, taking up the teaching of not-self, shows how dependent co-arising gives focus to this teaching in practice...
/quote
Also helpful here might be the image of uroboros, serpent devouring its own tail:
(imagine that there are two serpents, one going each direction, and you can maybe get a better feel for how the "direction" of the links works.
This is a profound topic. Take your time with it. Go on walks.
Some of the translations are almost cryptic, but I think they will make sense the more you happily reflect on them. Remember: it is about our experience of reality. It is the "first-person view" without all the bramble and assumptions that come with our mentation.
so when you contemplate and study this, know that every being's experience functions in this way.
may clarity and nongrasping grow and never decrease!
"Seattle Insight Meditation" (pffft, google this if you want, can't get the link to work and look under "Dharma Talk Series", he has a whole many-part series about DO, easy to find)
You've gotten a ton of resources already, and all you need is another
but while we're posting links about Dependent Origination, Rodney Smith gives a very, very good series of dharma talks. I listened to these more than a year ago, they moved me deeply.
The Seattle Insight Meditation group is an offshoot of the US wide Insight Meditation society, a 'secular' and very (dare I say) Western breed of Buddhist teachers and students.
ETA: anyone else having trouble with copy/pasting link addresses and having them work? This is the second link from a web address I've tried to post and been unsuccessful. I tried three times and got three DIFFERENT 'page not found' 'website not found' and 'dangerous access path attempted' (LOL). I tried to copy/paste from Wikipedia the other day and got the same results on this forum.
This explanation by Nyanatiloka Mahatera might be useful...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatiloka/wheel394.html#ch3
Dependent origination is a can of worms and there is no consensus on interpretation or application. Trust me, I've been discussing this for many years with some very bright people and nobody agrees on anything.
Here's an example: during a highly technical discussion over on Dhamma Wheel a while back we came to the conclusion that dependent origination works with necessary conditions, and dependent cessation works with sufficient conditions. I was involved in the discussion and even I'm not sure about the implications of this!
So anyway. I would suggest focussing on the here-and-now bit, ie observe for yourself how feeling arises and how it leads to craving or aversion, pulling in or pushing away.
Nothing is ever 'cut 'n' dried' or 'black & white' in Buddhism.
Most of the time, you're really just taking what you understand and know to be true and good for you, and striving to put it into practice 24/7....
Perhaps, but dependent origination is particularly contentious because of the connection with rebirth. Those of a more secular disposition will support the views of people like Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, who argue that DO is a purely psychological process, and that all 12 nidanas occur in the present moment.
The problem with this moment-to-moment interpretation is that the suttas simply don't support it. The main treatment of DO is in SN12, and those suttas clearly support the traditional view of DO as a cycle of rebirth, in other words a psycho-physical process.
So for example birth, ageing and death are clearly and unambiguously described in physical terms, and these arise in dependence on bhava ( becoming ) so logically bhava must represent a cycle of actual birth and death. There is no valid way to interpret these descriptions psychologically.
And there are numerous references in the suttas to beings reappearing in different realms according to their actions, ie kamma. Again, it's very difficult to see how such descriptions could be interpreted in a psychological way.
Here's the discussion I mentioned, see my post at the bottom of this page:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=22288&hilit=sylvester+dependent+cessation&start=380
See the nidana descriptions in SN12.2 for confirmation:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html
Dependent origination is less of a theory and more of a slowing down in time dissection of what a Buddhist meditator can observe of the components of any moment.
You should know what ignorance is first, If you know that ignorance means not knowing the 4 Noble Truths, as it says in the discourse on right view, then I would say you answered your own questions.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html
Have you actually discussed it with her over on the Secular Buddhist forum? I have, and I'm not sure it holds together all that well. Her approach looks to me overcomplicated and rather convoluted ( no offence, Linda! ).
As I said there is no consensus on these questions.
Not really, knowing the 4 Noble Truths doesn't explain dependent origination. You could say that dependent origination is an elaboration of the second Truth, but that doesn't get us very far. You could also say that both the 4 Noble Truths and dependent origination are based on the principle of conditionality, but that doesn't get us very far either.
Could you say which of the nidanas you think can be observed in the present moment? I've worked with the sense bases, feeling and craving, but I don't see how you can experience the other nidanas in the moment.
That would only be possible if you reject the way nidanas are described in the suttas ( eg SN12.2 and MN9 ) and rewrite them to become psychological processes. And how is that justified?
In the first discourse the Buddha said when his knowledge and vision of these four noble truths as they really are in their three phases and twelve aspects was thoroughly purified in this way, then he claimed to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world.
The three phases are: (i) the knowledge of each truth; (ii) the knowledge of the task to be achieved regarding that truth; and (iii) the knowledge that this task has been completed. the twelve aspects are obtained by applying the three phases to the 4 truths.
So @SpinyNorman can you really say your knowledge and vision of these 4 Noble Truths as they really are in there three phases and twelve aspects has been thoroughly purified in this way? I know I can't, if I did then I would have completed the eightfold path.
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut001.htm
I don't disagree with any of that, my point is that it doesn't assist an understanding of dependent origination.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html
Understanding the 4 Noble Truths, truly understanding them leads to attaining Nibbana, and of understanding Dependent Origination.
OK, but dependent origination is an elaboration of the second Noble Truth. Or do you mean that we should ignore dependent origination and just focus on the 4 Noble Truths?
Doesn't craving lead to clinging, and clinging lead to becoming, and becoming lead to birth?
Yes, that's how the suttas describe it.
SpinyNorman
Ya seem to be getting irritable on that holiday of yours.
Within meditation, I see DO as simply words listing the experiential components that constitute each nano moment and the causal links they can have to each other as well the places where that chain can be de-linked.
Experiencing them requires at least much emphasis on the meditative as the contemplative.
Perhaps I have not yet experienced them deeply enough to see where they needed any justification.
Truth is I don't fully understand dependent origination, but I would like to one day
OK, so which nidanas have you experienced in meditation?
There is way to experience nidanas in meditation? Nobody told me that lol, is that even possible?
most definitely yes.
http://personal.carthage.edu/jlochtefeld/buddhism/wheeloflife/nidanas.html
The Twelve Nidanas (preconditions)
Using that as a reference, here you can see Arya Nagarjuna's The Heart of Dependent Origination
http://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-masters/nagarjuna/heart-dependent-origination
(continued at http://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-masters/nagarjuna/heart-dependent-origination )
To take a simple example, let's say that somebody has given up smoking but is struggling with the nicotine addiction.
So they are meditating and then they become aware of a strong urge to smoke.
So in this case the sense-gate would the mind, contact would arise, and there would be a mix of feelings leading to craving.
OK, so that's four of the nidanas. What I'm saying is I don't see how it's possible to experience the rest of them moment-to-moment.
I suppose you could say that ignorance is the underlying condition here, and that dukkha is involved, but as for the other nidanas I'm not seeing them.
It would be interesting to know which Buddhist scholars are pointing this out. If you look at the suttas dependent origination is presented in a linear way, as a sequence of necessary conditions.
I'm also puzzled by the reference to the nidanas as fetters, fetters are something different:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)
Teachings on the twelve links of dependent origination
Thus I have heard
"Whoever sees dependant origination sees the Dharma-
Whoever sees the Dharma sees dependant origination!"
Some take the view that the chain can only be "broken" at craving, others take the view that it's the root cause of ignorance which must be overcome because craving is so habitual.
The second Noble Truth tells us that the proximate cause of suffering is craving, but dependent origination elaborates on this and explains how ignorance is the root or underlying cause.
If you try it out. There is no reason to evaluate theory any more.
That being said.
It would really be interesting to see how to "break" craving without shedding some ignorance?
Is there an example maybe that these "some" have given?
One could argue that to nip 'feeling' in the bud will stop craving in its tracks...
But then it is the feelings that are stopped?
DependEnt.... whoever 'saw' that couldn't spell....
I agree with that. Craving and aversion are habitual and deeply ingrained. They also operate at many levels, right up to the craving for life and existence. The same is true for self-view. All arising in dependence on a fundamental state ( condition ) of ignorance.
So the idea that we can just choose not to feel craving seems rather far-fetched to me. What we can do is to be mindful of how craving arises in dependence on feeling, gradually developing some insight into the process. That's why I've said that it's the contact-feeling-craving section of dependent origination that we can work with in the present moment.
Not in my experience, particularly bearing in mind that craving operates at many levels and is deeply ingrained and habitual.
I've been trying it out for a long time now. Here we're trying to relate theory to practice, or, more accurately, different interpretations of theory to different methods of practice.
Agreed. It the weekend soon and we all need to have some fun!
Yaaay!
So where can I find information about that way to look at the DO?
Is it one of the links you provided?
/Victor
And that particular comment was aimed at the author of the thread. The best and only way to learn the DO is to get the hands dirty.
I know you have @SpinyNorman.
The Twelve Nidanas are related to this teaching on interdependence?
The knights that say "Nee-dana"?
No, it's the craving and aversion that arise in dependence on feeling which subside.
That was why I posted the bit earlier from the Dhamma Wheel thread. The type of conditionality in DO is such that feeling is a necessary condition for craving but not a sufficient one, in other words feeling has to be there for craving to arise but craving doesn't invariably follow feeling.
The difference between necessary and sufficient conditions is pivotal here. It's a bit technical but worth a bit of time to understand if you're interested:
http://www.sfu.ca/~swartz/conditions1.htm
And that comment was for Shoshins post. What it said was that if feeling is nipped in the bud then it is not longer enough to only stop craving.
But anyway. To the point.
Are you saying that pleasant feelings does not always lead to craving? Or just that neutral feelings does not?
Nagarjuna's take on the twelve links (in a nutshell)
"Two deluded actions (Links 2 & 10 ) arise from Three deluded causes (Links 1,8,9).Seven uncontrolled results (Links 3,4,5,6,7,11,12) arise from those two deluded actions...Again Three deluded causes arise from these Seven results...Such a wheel of life goes round and round !"
...All aboard for the Magical Mystery Tour... Bus fares at the ready - Hold very tight please!