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Well I just led a Quaker Quiet Day for them so it would be churlish of them to refuse!
2
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
I never responded to the OP . . . If there are skillful, beautiful and meaningful (morally) things in an ideology, they'd be excellent methods of 'skillful means'. At least that's how it looks.
I have a Christian friend who grew up everywhere BUT the US (she was born here and returned to the US seven years ago). A lifelong Christian, she has taught me what a Christian who imitates Jesus to the best of her ability can be, and I've been VERY pleasantly surprised
In part this is the media's fault, along with my own personal biases . . . Christianity is too often represented by the poorest examples of it. You know, for the sake of entertaining an audience. My Christian friend is a breath of fresh air and restored my lopsided antipathy toward "Christians" to a more realistic one
When looking to examples of Hinduism I do not look to Deephack Shopping and his word salad, I look to Ghandhi (also available as a film) and Patanjali, Vedanta, yogis going further back than the Shakyamuni Yogi . . .
Harry Christians, Harry Christians
Hari, Hari . . .
Some old men went to Abba Poemen and asked,
"If we see brothers sleeping during the common prayer, should we wake them?"
Abba Poemen answered,
"If I see my brother sleeping, I put his head on my knees
and let him rest."
Then one old man spoke up,
"And how do you explain yourself before God?"
Abba Poemen replied,
"I say to God: You have said, 'First take the beam out of your own eye and then you will be able to remove the splinter from the eye of your brother.' "
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@lobster: YES! That is a beautiful example of "Christian wisdom" we can all benefit from. This is a version of "do unto others as you'd have them do to you", I think, and perhaps this 'do unto others' is repeated in different words in most religions.
If you cherry pick, there is evidence of moral wisdom in all kinds of places. Religion isn't THE source, but incorporates moral wisdom in their books and teachings. If we really got our moral sense from religion, we might still own slaves and stone adulterers. The only reason Christians and Jews don't stone adulterers any more is that civilized humanity has developed morally. Islam (the literalist ones) haven't quite gotten the memo yet, that books from the dawn of civilization aren't a good source of morality. Hopefully the Muslims who have stepped forward publicly to admit they seek reform in their religion will be successful. The whole world will appreciate that very much
A friend of mine has recently become a self-proclaimed Christian. He now attends church every week. He often steers conversations down the path of, "well since I have become a Christian, I believe..." In a lot of ways, it's all well and good. I don't mind respectfully discussing things from a Christian perspective. He seems to be in a better place mentally and emotionally than he had been for much of his life previously.
But there was one thing he said that rubbed me the wrong way. He was insisting that anyone who claims to be a Christian MUST want all of the people that they love and care about to also become Christians, or else that person is not really a good Christian.
I responded by saying that I disagreed; that I don't think that another person's religious affiliation needs to be considered. If you love and care about that person, whether or not they convert to your own religion should not be of any concern; that you should not try to convert them but that you can lead by example (by being kind and compassionate).
He agreed that a Christian should lead by example and shouldn't actively try to convert the other person, but that deep down, good Christians should hope and pray that their loved ones convert.
I think this line of thought relies heavily on the notion of only Christians can be saved and everyone else is doomed to hell. It seems to be pretty prevalent among modern day Christians.
I like @federica 's quote. "Ye shall know them by their fruits." I find it hard to believe that salvation is solely based on whether or not you sign up for a particular club.
I agree with most of what you said. I think that far fewer Christians today feel that God only cares about Christians. But it's still a major issue. But then again, there are plenty of Buddhists who believe that Buddhism is the only "right" religion. It's a pretty common sentiment of the adherents of any religion.
1
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@thegoldeneternity: Your friend is newly converted himself, that has an effect on everything he experiences. I personally believe if everyone adopted the core of Buddhist philosophy -- the cessation of suffering -- the whole world would be a better place. I'm not even a new convert but my bias is coming straight from personal experience. If you take Christianity quite literally, being evangelical is what they are 'told' to do, from Jesus getting his apostles together in order to send them off to spread the word to Paul's letters to whoever.
Unfortunately, being a 'good Christian' is a pretty literal thing, too, if you believe holiness can be measured and SHOULD be. This is where I see 'typical' Christianity as being a closed system while basic Buddhism 101 is open and flowing. My Christian friend would NEVER think God didn't care about Hindus or other Christians doin' it wrong, as @Vinlyn said, though I've met more who seem to agree with your friend.
I like federica 's quote. "Ye shall know them by their fruits." I find it hard to believe that salvation is solely based on whether or not you sign up for a particular club.
...tangent over
I also like Thich Nhat Hanh's observation in Living Buddha, Living Christ
When Jesus said "I am the way", He meant that to have a true relationship with God, you must practice in His way. His statement is life itself, His life, which is the way. If you do not really look at His life you cannot see the way.
Thay then sums it up in the best way I think I have ever read - When we understand and practice deeply the teachings of Buddha or the life of Jesus, we penetrate the door and enter the abode of the living Buddha or living Christ, and the life eternal presents itselfd to us.
Feel free to omit the religious components if you're an atheist, but I think Thay hit the nail on the head about being a Christian and following Christ
I've read "Living Buddha, Living Christ" but wasn't very impressed by it. I could see Thay's intention but didn't think it worked very well in practice.
@SpinyNorman said:
I've read "Living Buddha, Living Christ" but wasn't very impressed by it. I could see Thay's intention but didn't think it worked very well in practice.
Different strokes I guess.
Edited to add - I thought the OP was someone else but I still stand with my opinion that it's a good definition.
Comments
Well I just led a Quaker Quiet Day for them so it would be churlish of them to refuse!
I never responded to the OP . . . If there are skillful, beautiful and meaningful (morally) things in an ideology, they'd be excellent methods of 'skillful means'. At least that's how it looks.
I have a Christian friend who grew up everywhere BUT the US (she was born here and returned to the US seven years ago). A lifelong Christian, she has taught me what a Christian who imitates Jesus to the best of her ability can be, and I've been VERY pleasantly surprised
In part this is the media's fault, along with my own personal biases . . . Christianity is too often represented by the poorest examples of it. You know, for the sake of entertaining an audience. My Christian friend is a breath of fresh air and restored my lopsided antipathy toward "Christians" to a more realistic one
Exactly so @Hamsaka,
When looking to examples of Hinduism I do not look to Deephack Shopping and his word salad, I look to Ghandhi (also available as a film) and Patanjali, Vedanta, yogis going further back than the Shakyamuni Yogi . . .
Harry Christians, Harry Christians
Hari, Hari . . .
http://christdesert.org/Seeking_God/Stories_from_the_Desert_Fathers/The_Sleeping_Brother/index.html
@lobster: YES! That is a beautiful example of "Christian wisdom" we can all benefit from. This is a version of "do unto others as you'd have them do to you", I think, and perhaps this 'do unto others' is repeated in different words in most religions.
If you cherry pick, there is evidence of moral wisdom in all kinds of places. Religion isn't THE source, but incorporates moral wisdom in their books and teachings. If we really got our moral sense from religion, we might still own slaves and stone adulterers. The only reason Christians and Jews don't stone adulterers any more is that civilized humanity has developed morally. Islam (the literalist ones) haven't quite gotten the memo yet, that books from the dawn of civilization aren't a good source of morality. Hopefully the Muslims who have stepped forward publicly to admit they seek reform in their religion will be successful. The whole world will appreciate that very much
I'm going to go on a little tangent here...
A friend of mine has recently become a self-proclaimed Christian. He now attends church every week. He often steers conversations down the path of, "well since I have become a Christian, I believe..." In a lot of ways, it's all well and good. I don't mind respectfully discussing things from a Christian perspective. He seems to be in a better place mentally and emotionally than he had been for much of his life previously.
But there was one thing he said that rubbed me the wrong way. He was insisting that anyone who claims to be a Christian MUST want all of the people that they love and care about to also become Christians, or else that person is not really a good Christian.
I responded by saying that I disagreed; that I don't think that another person's religious affiliation needs to be considered. If you love and care about that person, whether or not they convert to your own religion should not be of any concern; that you should not try to convert them but that you can lead by example (by being kind and compassionate).
He agreed that a Christian should lead by example and shouldn't actively try to convert the other person, but that deep down, good Christians should hope and pray that their loved ones convert.
I think this line of thought relies heavily on the notion of only Christians can be saved and everyone else is doomed to hell. It seems to be pretty prevalent among modern day Christians.
I like @federica 's quote. "Ye shall know them by their fruits." I find it hard to believe that salvation is solely based on whether or not you sign up for a particular club.
...tangent over
I agree with most of what you said. I think that far fewer Christians today feel that God only cares about Christians. But it's still a major issue. But then again, there are plenty of Buddhists who believe that Buddhism is the only "right" religion. It's a pretty common sentiment of the adherents of any religion.
@thegoldeneternity: Your friend is newly converted himself, that has an effect on everything he experiences. I personally believe if everyone adopted the core of Buddhist philosophy -- the cessation of suffering -- the whole world would be a better place. I'm not even a new convert
but my bias is coming straight from personal experience. If you take Christianity quite literally, being evangelical is what they are 'told' to do, from Jesus getting his apostles together in order to send them off to spread the word to Paul's letters to whoever.
Unfortunately, being a 'good Christian' is a pretty literal thing, too, if you believe holiness can be measured and SHOULD be. This is where I see 'typical' Christianity as being a closed system while basic Buddhism 101 is open and flowing. My Christian friend would NEVER think God didn't care about Hindus or other Christians doin' it wrong, as @Vinlyn said, though I've met more who seem to agree with your friend.
I also like Thich Nhat Hanh's observation in Living Buddha, Living Christ
When Jesus said "I am the way", He meant that to have a true relationship with God, you must practice in His way. His statement is life itself, His life, which is the way. If you do not really look at His life you cannot see the way.
Thay then sums it up in the best way I think I have ever read - When we understand and practice deeply the teachings of Buddha or the life of Jesus, we penetrate the door and enter the abode of the living Buddha or living Christ, and the life eternal presents itselfd to us.
Feel free to omit the religious components if you're an atheist, but I think Thay hit the nail on the head about being a Christian and following Christ
_ /\ _
I've read "Living Buddha, Living Christ" but wasn't very impressed by it. I could see Thay's intention but didn't think it worked very well in practice.
Different strokes I guess.
Edited to add - I thought the OP was someone else but I still stand with my opinion that it's a good definition.
_ /\ _