Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Oh well, at least one thing's safe then.
That was a joke.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited March 2015
I'm not attacking theism either.
Because I feel some theistic views are irresponsible and misguided is not attacking theism in general.
Wow, the quoting really is starting to suck on this site. Brutal.
Only the logic used by Buddhists is correct.
Only the logic used by Americans is correct.
Only the logic used by men is correct."
________________
I'm saying that logic is logic. Logic is logic no matter if it is western or eastern but in the west it was made into a formal study by Aristotle. Basically, it is the formal study of valid reasoning. This is why we have people here rightly pointing out logical fallacies as they pop up.
Things like the appeal to probability, the strawman, the ad hominem and begging the question are all forms of illogical and invalid reasoning.
________________
It is not our remit to right every doctrine, spread every zen insight, scratch every Samsarians impulse. We have dharma fundamentalists for that if we are Middle Way hardcore fanatics . . . "
__________________
I wouldn't go as far as that. However, if you tell me I will be destroyed by the wrath of a deity because I didn't ask their son to save me, I will probably hold your reasoning to scrutiny.
_________________
"Logic is just a manner of reasoning. And everyone who has beliefs can us logic to reason in their favor. For every Christian who believes literally Jesus washes away their sins, there is another Christian who views it more symbolically (just like our back-and-forth about whether realms really exists, and whether they are real places or in our minds). Not all of them believe Jesus literally washes away their sin, but some do. So when you are correcting the illogical reasoning of their beliefs, do you quiz them on exactly what their beliefs are, or do you assume what their beliefs are based on their label of Christian? Also, in what situations do you think that you should correct that type of "illogical" thinking?"
_______________
It isn't really correcting but a style of debate.
There are many situations where I feel it is only right speech to point out the illogic of a view. When someone is using religious doctrine to persecute another for an easy example.
I wouldn't go as far as that. However, if you tell me I will be destroyed by the wrath of a deity because I didn't ask their son to save me, I will probably hold your reasoning to scrutiny.
Seems reasonable. Christ be with you.
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited March 2015
Oh, if Jesus could understand what I'm saying, I'm sure he knows I hold him in high regard.
I'm saying that logic is logic. Logic is logic no matter if it is western or eastern but in the west it was made into a formal study by Aristotle. Basically, it is the formal study of valid reasoning. This is why we have people here rightly pointing out logical fallacies as they pop up.
I hope someday you get to live in Thailand and get into a logical discussion with a Thai person -- who is from a totally different cultural background than you -- and discuss the logic of, "It is okay for me to take that money of yours. After all, it's not stealing, because you are a very rich Westerner, and I am just a very poor Thai boy."
0
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@vinlyn said:
Only the logic used by Buddhists is correct.
Only the logic used by Americans is correct.
Only the logic used by men is correct.
I just snipped this out because it made me think of something I heard recently (not specifically about the rest of your post or the issue under discussion)
I would think it is true that there is a coherent logic that can be generically applied to any thing. The Muslims created and developed algebra, but we don't have Muslim Algebra and Christian and Jewish Algebra, we just have algebra. Logic transcends the particulars of a belief system.
If you are a Christian, before logic even enters the picture, there are presumptions that are taken for granted. They aren't part of the logic -- the logic uses them for its scaffolding. Say a new Christian takes the belief on board that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was crucified for our sins and rose from the dead and will return soon. Logic can be applied to that assumption, but not by a Christian, who takes that as bedrock 'truth' and THEN may (or may not) use generic logic, and actually will get a "Christian logic" per se, because of the givens. But logic doesn't really have different species of itself, it just 'begins' with different assumptions.
In theory, a basic logic will 'proof' . . . well, any statement.
It might help to explain that I'm taking a class called "Mathematical Thinking", which I can barely grasp because I've forgotten most of the symbolic logic I took (badly) in college. For what it's worth, it appears that logic is impartial and while it may reduce an assumption to irrelevancy or something unrecognizable, it is a tool one could count on when you need it.
@ourself wrote: ''However, if you tell me I will be destroyed by the wrath of a deity because I didn't ask their son to save me, I will probably hold your reasoning to scrutiny.''
There is no eternal hell in the bible. That's an invention. Only a God that was a fool would destroy its own creations.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
But there is a Heaven, right? I can see it getting pretty crowded up there....
"A new intern was being shown round the Heavenly Estate by St Peter, before meeting 'The BIG one' as part of his welcoming ritual.
"Over here, we've got yer actual Sikhs...nice bunch of guys... bi warrior-like, but it weas off after they've been here a while.... over there, we have the Muslims... very confused.... they don't know which way is East, 'co' the compass don't work here, see....? Here we've got the Protestants.... some of the ol' monarchs are a bit bloody-minded, but Liz mark 2 is nice, and Charlie boy gets on wiv everyone... he talks to the trees, you know....This huge rea is for our Homies, the Jewish fraternity... what a wild bunch they are! Man, the parties they throw...!"
"What's behind that huge wall...?" Asks the noob, loudly.
St pete turns on him with alarmed urgency -
"SHHHHHH!!! Fer goodness' sakes, you don't wanna start a Riot! Behind that wall," he whispers, "Them's the Catholics!"
"Why.... Why are they behind the wall...?" whispers back the noob
"Well" explains St Pete, conspiratorially....
"They like to think they're the only ones here....!"
@octinomos said:
There is no eternal hell in the bible. That's an invention. Only a God that was a fool would destroy its own creations.
Correct - the lake of fire that Jesus was talking about was Genohim (sp) and even then it is referred to in the Torah as a flaming pit that was used to dump rubbish in.
@federica said:
But there is a Heaven, right? I can see it getting pretty crowded up there....
Jesus referred to Paradise. But there is no reference to a Heaven in the Torah as Jews believe in reincarnation. When the Torah was given to Moishe (Moses, but I love saying/typing Moishe), there were 144,000 Israelites at Mt Sinai. It is taught that every Jew who is born has a neshamah (soul) that is part of the original 144,000. The reason being that we all return to "undo" what Adem (Adam) and Chavah (Eve) did in the Garden of Eden. It is said that the lives of the descendants were so long (900 years) at first because they had more to fix than those of us who live now. When we have repaired the imbalance of Adam and Eve, Moshciach (Messianic time) will come and we will live in a golden age of the world being one big Garden of Eden.
I imagine Jesus was referring to the Garden of Eden when he was talking about Paradise, given that he was a Jew. However, I am not a Rabbinical scholar, or a Kabbalah expert. I'm relating what we learnt in Torah class at Shul. The information I quoted above comes from the writings of Maimonidies, the Baal Shem Tov and the Gemurah and Midrash (Jewish scholars loved to debate and write - a lot )
_ /\ _
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
" I hope someday you get to live in Thailand and get into a logical discussion with a Thai person -- who is from a totally different cultural background than you -- and discuss the logic of, "It is okay for me to take that money of yours. After all, it's not stealing, because you are a very rich Westerner, and I am just a very poor Thai boy."
I don't even know where to begin with that one but it isn't just illogical, it's downright ignorant.
What, Thailand is the only poor country?
I am by no means rich and have been flat broke living in Jamaica so you may want to get your facts straight before you make yet another logical fallacy.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@ourself -- well everyone on earth is going to suffer the apocalypse, righteous or not. when someone works on him/herself and fixes their internal problems (and not be worried about what you see on the outside) then that person causes the forces that operate reality to be less harsh towards the whole world. so the more people that turn to righteousness, the less harsh the apocalypse will be in general.... let me know if something isn't clear.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Will there be free beer?
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
It's not something you accept or not in that sense. It's whether you like it or not. in regards to righteous, they just need to study torah and the rest is automatic.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited March 2015
I've only studied the Torah as it appears in the Christian Bible as the Old Testament but I find it lacking a true moral compass and reject that it is the word of an all knowing or all powerful deity.
Too many factual errors, bloodlust and perversion. An ignorant people shouldn't be a problem for an actual all powerful deity if it wants to get the message out.
That is only true for myself and I admit I may have overlooked some insight apparent to someone living in those, shall we say, times.
I guess I'll have to go without righteousness and be optimistic that God or whatever we want to call it wakes up eventually.
@ourself said:
I've only studied the Torah as it appears in the Christian Bible as the Old Testament
Try the "original" and compare them. You may still find HaShem "lacking a moral compass" but at least you'll have read the original. There's a few alterations in the Christian version.
there'll be no money concept in heaven as there is here, so yes beer will be free. good question. haShem doesn't mind if we have fun, just so long as we don't harm ourselves or others...everything in moderation not unlike a Buddhist.
Comments
You don't find me attacking theism.
Oh well, at least one thing's safe then.
That was a joke.
Because I feel some theistic views are irresponsible and misguided is not attacking theism in general.
Wow, the quoting really is starting to suck on this site. Brutal.
@vinlyn said;
"So in other words, what you're saying is:
Only the logic used by Buddhists is correct.
Only the logic used by Americans is correct.
Only the logic used by men is correct."
________________
I'm saying that logic is logic. Logic is logic no matter if it is western or eastern but in the west it was made into a formal study by Aristotle. Basically, it is the formal study of valid reasoning. This is why we have people here rightly pointing out logical fallacies as they pop up.
Things like the appeal to probability, the strawman, the ad hominem and begging the question are all forms of illogical and invalid reasoning.
________________
@vinlyn said;
"And you have never disagreed with anyone on any topic based on logic.
Need I go on?"
___________________
That's got to be a logical fallacy right there but I can't place my finger on it.
___________________
@lobster said;
"Perhaps. Perhaps not.
It is not our remit to right every doctrine, spread every zen insight, scratch every Samsarians impulse. We have dharma fundamentalists for that if we are Middle Way hardcore fanatics . . .
__________________
I wouldn't go as far as that. However, if you tell me I will be destroyed by the wrath of a deity because I didn't ask their son to save me, I will probably hold your reasoning to scrutiny.
_________________
@karasti said;
"Logic is just a manner of reasoning. And everyone who has beliefs can us logic to reason in their favor. For every Christian who believes literally Jesus washes away their sins, there is another Christian who views it more symbolically (just like our back-and-forth about whether realms really exists, and whether they are real places or in our minds). Not all of them believe Jesus literally washes away their sin, but some do. So when you are correcting the illogical reasoning of their beliefs, do you quiz them on exactly what their beliefs are, or do you assume what their beliefs are based on their label of Christian? Also, in what situations do you think that you should correct that type of "illogical" thinking?"
_______________
It isn't really correcting but a style of debate.
There are many situations where I feel it is only right speech to point out the illogic of a view. When someone is using religious doctrine to persecute another for an easy example.
Seems reasonable. Christ be with you.
Oh, if Jesus could understand what I'm saying, I'm sure he knows I hold him in high regard.
The whole Christ thing?
Not so much, but that's just me.
I hope someday you get to live in Thailand and get into a logical discussion with a Thai person -- who is from a totally different cultural background than you -- and discuss the logic of, "It is okay for me to take that money of yours. After all, it's not stealing, because you are a very rich Westerner, and I am just a very poor Thai boy."
I just snipped this out because it made me think of something I heard recently (not specifically about the rest of your post or the issue under discussion)
I would think it is true that there is a coherent logic that can be generically applied to any thing. The Muslims created and developed algebra, but we don't have Muslim Algebra and Christian and Jewish Algebra, we just have algebra. Logic transcends the particulars of a belief system.
If you are a Christian, before logic even enters the picture, there are presumptions that are taken for granted. They aren't part of the logic -- the logic uses them for its scaffolding. Say a new Christian takes the belief on board that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was crucified for our sins and rose from the dead and will return soon. Logic can be applied to that assumption, but not by a Christian, who takes that as bedrock 'truth' and THEN may (or may not) use generic logic, and actually will get a "Christian logic" per se, because of the givens. But logic doesn't really have different species of itself, it just 'begins' with different assumptions.
In theory, a basic logic will 'proof' . . . well, any statement.
It might help to explain that I'm taking a class called "Mathematical Thinking", which I can barely grasp because I've forgotten most of the symbolic logic I took (badly) in college. For what it's worth, it appears that logic is impartial and while it may reduce an assumption to irrelevancy or something unrecognizable, it is a tool one could count on when you need it.
@ourself wrote: ''However, if you tell me I will be destroyed by the wrath of a deity because I didn't ask their son to save me, I will probably hold your reasoning to scrutiny.''
There is no eternal hell in the bible. That's an invention. Only a God that was a fool would destroy its own creations.
But there is a Heaven, right? I can see it getting pretty crowded up there....
"A new intern was being shown round the Heavenly Estate by St Peter, before meeting 'The BIG one' as part of his welcoming ritual.
"Over here, we've got yer actual Sikhs...nice bunch of guys... bi warrior-like, but it weas off after they've been here a while.... over there, we have the Muslims... very confused.... they don't know which way is East, 'co' the compass don't work here, see....? Here we've got the Protestants.... some of the ol' monarchs are a bit bloody-minded, but Liz mark 2 is nice, and Charlie boy gets on wiv everyone... he talks to the trees, you know....This huge rea is for our Homies, the Jewish fraternity... what a wild bunch they are! Man, the parties they throw...!"
"What's behind that huge wall...?" Asks the noob, loudly.
St pete turns on him with alarmed urgency -
"SHHHHHH!!! Fer goodness' sakes, you don't wanna start a Riot! Behind that wall," he whispers, "Them's the Catholics!"
"Why.... Why are they behind the wall...?" whispers back the noob
"Well" explains St Pete, conspiratorially....
"They like to think they're the only ones here....!"
Correct - the lake of fire that Jesus was talking about was Genohim (sp) and even then it is referred to in the Torah as a flaming pit that was used to dump rubbish in.
Jesus referred to Paradise. But there is no reference to a Heaven in the Torah as Jews believe in reincarnation. When the Torah was given to Moishe (Moses, but I love saying/typing Moishe), there were 144,000 Israelites at Mt Sinai. It is taught that every Jew who is born has a neshamah (soul) that is part of the original 144,000. The reason being that we all return to "undo" what Adem (Adam) and Chavah (Eve) did in the Garden of Eden. It is said that the lives of the descendants were so long (900 years) at first because they had more to fix than those of us who live now. When we have repaired the imbalance of Adam and Eve, Moshciach (Messianic time) will come and we will live in a golden age of the world being one big Garden of Eden.
I imagine Jesus was referring to the Garden of Eden when he was talking about Paradise, given that he was a Jew. However, I am not a Rabbinical scholar, or a Kabbalah expert. I'm relating what we learnt in Torah class at Shul. The information I quoted above comes from the writings of Maimonidies, the Baal Shem Tov and the Gemurah and Midrash (Jewish scholars loved to debate and write - a lot
)
_ /\ _
@vinlyn said;
" I hope someday you get to live in Thailand and get into a logical discussion with a Thai person -- who is from a totally different cultural background than you -- and discuss the logic of, "It is okay for me to take that money of yours. After all, it's not stealing, because you are a very rich Westerner, and I am just a very poor Thai boy."
I don't even know where to begin with that one but it isn't just illogical, it's downright ignorant.
What, Thailand is the only poor country?
I am by no means rich and have been flat broke living in Jamaica so you may want to get your facts straight before you make yet another logical fallacy.
@octinomos;
I didn't mention anything about hell. I was talking about the apocalypse.
I won't do anything in the street, and that might frighten the horses.
@ourself -- well everyone on earth is going to suffer the apocalypse, righteous or not. when someone works on him/herself and fixes their internal problems (and not be worried about what you see on the outside) then that person causes the forces that operate reality to be less harsh towards the whole world. so the more people that turn to righteousness, the less harsh the apocalypse will be in general.... let me know if something isn't clear.
Will there be free beer?
Just one thing...
Can anybody be righteous or do they have to take Yeshua as their personal savior?
It's not something you accept or not in that sense. It's whether you like it or not. in regards to righteous, they just need to study torah and the rest is automatic.
Too many factual errors, bloodlust and perversion. An ignorant people shouldn't be a problem for an actual all powerful deity if it wants to get the message out.
That is only true for myself and I admit I may have overlooked some insight apparent to someone living in those, shall we say, times.
I guess I'll have to go without righteousness and be optimistic that God or whatever we want to call it wakes up eventually.
everyone is fine where they're at... YKVK doesn't change....
Try the "original" and compare them. You may still find HaShem "lacking a moral compass" but at least you'll have read the original. There's a few alterations in the Christian version.
there'll be no money concept in heaven as there is here, so yes beer will be free. good question. haShem doesn't mind if we have fun, just so long as we don't harm ourselves or others...everything in moderation not unlike a Buddhist.
tee hee, as a moderate extremist, I believe in extreme virtue . . . on occasion