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Killing a dying animal, compassion or interfering with nature.
Earthninja
WandererWest Australia Veteran
in Philosophy
Namaste
Today I was walking home with my wife, I noticed a small bird on the side of the road.
It was alive but it's neck was cocked sideways and it could only fly in circles. It's neck appeared broken as it was limp and could only turn in circles.
The bird appeared clearly distressed, I found a large rock and walked over to the bird, I then killed it as quickly as I could.
My thoughts were that if I was suffering beyond hope of survival I would want a quick ending.
But I've heard it said that we shouldn't interfere with nature, the bird was dying but we shouldn't impute human emotions onto animals,
I felt like it was the right thing to do but from a karmic point of view was it the right thing?
Will I suffer down the line because of my conscious decision to kill an animal? Or will I receive good karma because my intention was to end it's suffering even though I killed?
Thoughts from you guys?
With metta
Chris
Today I was walking home with my wife, I noticed a small bird on the side of the road.
It was alive but it's neck was cocked sideways and it could only fly in circles. It's neck appeared broken as it was limp and could only turn in circles.
The bird appeared clearly distressed, I found a large rock and walked over to the bird, I then killed it as quickly as I could.
My thoughts were that if I was suffering beyond hope of survival I would want a quick ending.
But I've heard it said that we shouldn't interfere with nature, the bird was dying but we shouldn't impute human emotions onto animals,
I felt like it was the right thing to do but from a karmic point of view was it the right thing?
Will I suffer down the line because of my conscious decision to kill an animal? Or will I receive good karma because my intention was to end it's suffering even though I killed?
Thoughts from you guys?
With metta
Chris
5
Comments
you did an instinctual thing -- You are a part of nature -- we humans tend to forget that because of all the machinery we've created. Our homes are our 'nests' -- what you did was a good thing, in my book because it showed your compassion. you didn't do it because you're sadistic - you are kind. I sometimes forget this, but I try more nowadays to do a little role playing ... ask yourself, if a friend or a stranger came to you and told you the story you just told us, would you judge him harshly, or think he's going to suffer bad karma from this act?
Note: my left shift key is sticking.
There may have been a third choice.
May have bee a third choice?
In any event, please don't doubt yourself and the actions you've already taken, Chris.
Its intent that matters with Karma as has been discussed here before, your intent was to relieve its suffering which is not necessarily a bad thing.
I think you did the right thing. I think like this. Even if it means bad karma for me it means less suffering for the animal. So I can take the bad karma in that case.
When I first came to Sweden I found the custom to kill suffering animals barbaric. But know I see the point in it. And I too would like a quick death at lifes end.
And now that I go back to SL I find it barbaric how people leave animals they have hit with a car at the side of the road. Since they do not want to interfere with the animals karma....
So I guess it is a cultural thing.
Dont worry too much about karma. Focus on doing what you believe is right. Which I think you have pretty good growing sense of.
@silver has the right idea. Dont regret past decisions. Just remember to learn from the past and make the future ones better.
/Victor
@Earthninja
I think these are good questions to ask oneself.
Like many choices in life, there is not so much of a clear right or wrong option, just trying to decide which choice truly seems to best to represent harmlessness.
As expedition kayakers, we often come face to face with natures harsher consequences like what you've described. All you can do, is try to make sure that what you choose to do is what is best for the animal and not have it just be whatever might make us the most comfortable.
In the end, you were the one on site, the best person to be able to reflect on all sides of this story and no amount of armchair quarterbacking or counseling from the peanut gallery here will alter the karma you were worrying about.
And...
I would not worry more about the good or bad karma that you may accrue, than in just trying to have your intent best represent your understanding of compassion, love and wisdom.
It's not so much I'm worried about karma I'm just interested in how this situation would manifest karma. Good or bad? Because maybe it's my delusion that this was the right thing to do. If I had to go back though I would still do what I did.
@vinlyn I'm not sure what your referring to? the other thought that crossed my mind was take the bird to the vet but it was well and truly on it's way out. If I had taken it it would of likely have just ended up suffering longer which is what I wanted to avoid.
I was 10 minutes from home, the bird had a broken neck and I was about 20 minute drive from the vet. It was also bleeding from it's neck.
I didn't see any other choice.
With metta
Chris
This is something that can only be 'judged' on an individual basis, regarding a specific time and place and incident.
I see Buddhist 'morality' is very, very flexible, where you have an understanding of the context within you, and when a situation arises, like finding the suffering bird, whatever you choose to do is very particular to the situation.
In the great scheme of things, you did nothing good OR bad, as far as the bird is concerned.
But within you, the being that you are, that's where all the 'action' is. How do you feel about it, yourself? What thoughts are going through your head about this? Probably a lot of conflicting thoughts, but it's worth it to examine them (the mindfulness thing) and really dig into this as an important event that is very meaningful, a learning experience.
Nature is a harsh, harsh thing. Life in Samsara is utterly without fairness -- the idea of fairness is pure human in origin. Social animals have evolved with a very, very basic kind of 'herd morality', where there is concern for one's young and protective instincts for other herd members. We humans have this as well, it is the basic structures of our own moralities, as they've developed over the hundreds of thousands of years there have been humans.
I have had chickens, ducks, geese, goats, turkeys, llamas for about ten years off and on. I've had to intercede and end little beloved lives with my own hands a few times. It is beyond excruciating to even think about it. But I have a very solid sense that alleviating the suffering of a critter under my watch is the least I can do.
Nonhuman animals lack a sense of the future. They don't exactly KNOW they will live a certain amount of time and then die, like humans do. They are pure in their awareness, however limited it is, they live in the moment in a way we only wish we could and meditate for decades to understand
. To me, for these reasons and others, it is morally OK to quickly and as painlessly as possible, end a suffering life. It is painful and I'm in for a few weeks of thinking about it A LOT afterward. I'm suffering a helluva lot more than the animal, at least in terms of complexity and time 
.
These are important questions and the answers change depending on the particulars. Watch how you feel and think about this over time; in a few weeks, it would be interesting if you came back and updated this thread with your thoughts
How eloquently put.
Brilliant in its perceptiveness, and a timely lesson to us all.
"Time" being the operative word.
It is because we have fabricated 'time', that we are so acutely aware of our own mortality.
Perhaps one could argue that our very ingenuity, our very creativity in fabricating the solid, tangible chronological aspect of Time, has created the fundamental essence of our Suffering: We Cling to Life (and all aspects thereof), because we know its inevitable end. And thus being aware of it, flinch from it and recoil, desperate to both avoid meeting with it, and wasting the intervening period....
There is truly no right or wrong answer out there for both are valid viewpoints. The answer lies within.
I do think if there was a chance to heal it you would have done what you could.
I think it was suffering very badly and that you acted in accordance to the logic and compassion of non-separation.
By being aware of or in touch with nature, you acted on nature's behalf.
I would have taken it to a vet or, if available, a wildlife rehab facility.
It's fine if Buddhists don't believe it god. It is not -- IMHO -- fine for them to play god.
You asked for an opinion. Sorry, that's my viewpoint. But you did what you thought was right. So relax and accept your own decision.
Here is what I would have done: I would have carefully scooped it up and put it in a box with paper towel, and I would have called a rehabber (not a vet necessarily unless they were the only option). You'd be amazed what they can do for even severely injured animals. And if the animal will not make it, they will euthanize it humanely, which is probably better for both you and the bird. There are animals who fall from trees, hit windows, and even who are hit by cars and appear dead on the side of the road that survive to be released to the wild via the help of a rehabber. Even very small areas often have rehabbers you can consult, and usually the vets know how to contact them if you don't have immediate access to the internet to look them up. Even if there isn't one in your town, they can give advice for what to do, and most of the time they have huge networks of helpers who transport animals regularly who will meet you or come pick up the animal. We live about 120 miles from the nearest rehab hospital, but we work with them from our area. They help you learn basics of animal care so that the animal doesn't die due to human instinct which is often to feed milk...which kills most animal babies. We help transport animals back and forth. the best part is if the animal recovers, you get to be the one to release it
Anyhow, highly recommend becoming familiar with rehabbers in your area 
I'm not telling you this to make you feel bad, though. I think you operated out of compassion for the suffering for the bird and did the best thing you could in the moment. I don't think there is any bad karma to be incurred. People tend to forget that karma isn't just a random thing that happens to us. Our intention plays a huge part in it. Your intention was to help, that is what counts. Perhaps your paths crossed just so you could help the bird.
About 8 years ago on a very hot July 4th morning, my husband and I were walking and found a mostly featherless eaglet that had fallen from a tree to the pavement. We brought it in, but no one was available because of the holiday. We tried to keep it alive for the day, but we didn't know what to do and the internet only provided very mixed and confusing ideas for what to do. He died over night. It was that experience that made me seek out rehab folk and learn about what they do and how I can help (even though I am unable to do rehab myself at this point in my life, I would like to do so when I have more time to dedicate.) They do amazing work.
Many years ago we came across a deer that had been struck by a car. One of its hind legs was severed at the knee joint. Other than that it seemed ok, but would obviously never survive.
I tackled it after a short chase. When I was over it, I felt a sense of regret and sadness that it had to die, but I could see that it was resigned to death and had begun to lose consciousness.
I quickly dispatched it. We ate it.
I don't think I was playing God. I'm not sure if I was being human. More like a hyena I suppose.
I might have suffered from karma. How would I know?
I think that was a totally rational course of action, @robot. Many if not most humans eat meat of one sort or another. Not hyena! Yet we have certain similarities, in that we are warm-blooded creatures: we bond with our families, our communities, whether we live in a house or a hollow log.
It is important to read your heart and mind about anything? If there is suffering after the incident, no matter what you read in this forum is secondary. Sometimes when I encounter such things I checked my breathing.
@Earthninja. I do take in injured birds. Few survive but hopefully they die in peace.
"Will I suffer down the line because of my conscious decision to kill an animal? Or will I receive good karma because my intention was to end it's suffering even though I killed?"
My honest opinion is that it's entirely up to you. Funny how our monkey minds step in and mess up our minds. When you saw a suffering bird and responded, your thoughts were not "Hey, here's a chance to rack up some good karma!" Your thoughts were, "It's suffering. How can I help?"
Compassion is judged by immediate results, not good and bad piles of karma on a cosmic scale. If you did what you could to end the suffering and then went back to focusing on your activities, then you had a clear mind and correct response.
Dis u OP?
@thug4lyfe we used to use black humour in the police. I did have a laugh at that!
OM DHRUM SOHA OM AMRITA AYUR DADE SOHA
It depends on the link you have made. Was your intent compassionate? I believe so. The link is therefore a compassionate one.
I was once at a dharma centre where a mouse arrived and did not not scurry away. It was ready to die. I reported her presence and she was taken to several rinpoches for a blessing before passing away the same day.
When Rinpoches are not available we make our decisions based on our understanding. You did good.
OM DHRUM SOHA OM AMRITA AYUR DADE SOHA
I know that I am an heir of my kamma.
Would I be correct in saying that whether we preform wholesome or unwholesome actions it is done while we still have the underlying tendencies lying latent within us?
You know, once I had a similar experience where on the way to a monastery to go spin some prayer wheels and incline my mind to the Dharma there was a small helpless baby bird on the sidewalk.
I picked it up, not really knowing what to do with him/her. Didn't even have its eyes open yet. Must have fallen from a nest.
A dog came nearby so I was glad I had picked it up... It occurred to me that perhaps the most compassionate thing to do in the circumstance was to eat it. Swallow him whole. Pray for him. Keep him warm in my gastrointestinal juices and fluids until his body dissolved into mine. It really seemed like a "crazy wisdom" moment.
But I couldn't bring myself to do it. I carried him around for a while and buried him in some dried grasses. Contemplated "what if i put him in my pocket and got him through airport security and raised him to be big and strong?"
There is the story of Buddha on the boat in a (relatively distant) past life where there was a murderer clearly planning to kill all the people on the boat. The Buddha, out of compassion, so that the murderer-to-be wouldn't accumulate bad karma out the wazoo, killed the dude.
Once, the Dalai Lama, recollecting that story, about how it is possible to be compassionate in that (very deep) way, followed up with "still, I do not know if I could bring myself to do it."
Pray for that birdie. Karma is intention.
In this thread I mention the beautiful lake bordering the Estate on which we live.
It's a beautiful gathering place for many of nature's creatures, and the lake has fish and fowl enjoying its waters.
Sadly, we have a lot of poaching.
It's not hunting, it's poaching.
It's an urban area, with plenty of shops and people round here are not destitute, starving or to be found wanting.
But we have ... could I say, a certain section of immigrant society... coming to the lake to fish (you need a licence and a permit, and one can only fish on certain days) and they steal the wild birds too, trapping them by feeding them, and snaring them, then killing and plucking them there. They do this at night.
The devastation in the morning is tragic to behold.
We also know it's a particular section of society, because none of the prohibitive notices are written in English....
That's crap kamma right there.
"Killing a dying animal, compassion or interfering with nature."
Either way one's conscience can be interferred/messed with...Personally I think you did the 'right' thing at the 'right' time @Earthninja
Yep, we happily kill perfectly healthy animals to fulfill a dietary preference.
Well, I dunno about 'perfectly healthy' what with the CAFO's, but I can't afford the actual healthy animal meats. You can't guilt me or anyone else into seeing things your way, Norm. You may as well say that my mother wears army boots, ha ha!
I wonder about vets who euthanise animals.
Why? What do you wonder, exactly?
I have never met, nor heard of any vet who is willing to euthanise an animal out of vindictiveness, malice or cruelty.
Every vet I have come across, who has been in a position to euthanise an animal has always acted with the kindest, most sincere and compassionate way, by considering the animal's welfare and "quality of Life".
So, really, as far as I am personally concerned, I've never hesitated or wondered at all....
But is it our place to make such decisions , that's what I've struggled with, not to kill unless that can be qualified by " " unless x applies"
Well, I wonder why you wonder, given that (as my Christian upbringing says - properly explained and translated - that we are STEWARDS of the animal kingdom) and that put in such a position to feel a need to make that decision, we already are compassionate, and our eyes and hearts are clear on all the impermanent creatures that we and they are.
Who is to say what the animal wants?
WE are to say what the animal wants. And we evaluate that conclusion by examining the factors which put us in the position of having to decide.
It may not be ideal, but it's all we've got.
I guess that's one to ponder...who says WE have a genuine say in what WE want in life? As has been said on the non-duality forum I go to, we don't - that non-volition thingy they're always on about. I try to see life as clearly as I can, and I'm undecided as to whether we really have a choice in all matters as they are wont to say.
I like to move forward and take everything as it comes as best I can. As long as we are doing things out of compassion and love...what, me worry?
To an extent we do, @Silver. Take a diagnosis of cancer. Some choose to commit suicide. Others choose to believe they will be cured, even in cases where that is improbable. Some suffer through it. Some suffer through it with a degree of joy.
We don't know enough about the processes of karma or rebirth or anything else as far as what happens after death and so on to really answer that. We can only do our best with the information we have, and it seems to me that standing by while an animal (or a person but religion gets in the way there) suffers seems cruel. Most people would desire to be released from horrible suffering. I assume most animals do as well because they try to avoid suffering and obviously experience great discomfort and pain during it just like we do. So thinking that we can comprehend karma "maybe they are here to experience this suffering?" or rebirth "maybe if they go through this they will have a better rebirth" seems ridiculous. We can't comprehend it. We can't know it. We can't even comprehend and know our own fates, nevermind the fate of another being. Releasing them from suffering if and when we can seems the most compassionate option, including for people if they so desire to make that choice.
This is a strawman argument.
We're talking about making decisions FOR animals, not humans making decisions for themselves.
Sorry, I meant 'smoke and mirrors'.
(I can never remember the difference!
Q)
I think that's well said, @karasti. Animals live in a far more 'raw' existence, and I don't think they think anything about 'why me,' like we human animals do. What they see is what they get - they don't even know it necessarily - nothing to do but accept what may befall them. The thing is we humans live in a more raw existence, but we may not really see it all that well.
@vinlyn In our family we have had different things happen with dying animals-mostly pets but sometimes wild animals too. Some pets just die suddenly. Some are ill but seem at peace so we watch and let them live out their days if they are comfortable. Some it is very clear they are miserable and look at you like "this is horrible. Help me, please." Not all animals, of course, but many we keep as pets. One can read their emotions if you pay attention. We can't ask, but we can be aware of their needs the same way we can with nonverbal people.
Personally, that's why I define sentience differently than most here.
That's what I'm saying. So, the question is, do you just go out and smash them with a rock?
That's a bit unclear - I have no idea how you define sentience - so, how do you define it?
eta: The smash with a rock comment seemed um a bit harsh if you know what I mean. What exactly do you mean by that?
Personally, and I'm not asking anyone else to agree, I take it as the ability to "emotionalize" experiences.
@vinlyn as I said in my initial response, that wouldn't have been my reaction but mostly because I have learned other ways to address such issues. Sometimes, you do the best you know how and I think that is what the OP did. I've seen many a deer get dispatched by guns after having legs broken by cars and so on. I see our DNR shoot moose with obvious neurological disease. While the rock method seems harsh, it was still probably a quicker death than being chewed alive by a cat or freezing (or cooking) on a sidewalk.
@silver the OP stated he found an obviously very injured bird and he killed the bird with a rock.
Animals cannot have the same emotional responses as we do.
Our problem is that when we experience emotions, we carry them on as baggage.
Animals don't.
They don't feel sorry for themselves, they merely experience pain and fear.
Their brains are not advanced enough to be able to rationalise what happens to them, in an emotional sense.
Animals live n the 'now'.
'Now' is what is happening.
'Now' is when the pain is felt.
'Now' is when they are fearful.
Thy are fearful because they have learnt to be wary of humans. They're 'wild'.
Therefore, they fear the possibility of a current threat because often, if fatally injured, they can't flee, which is what their instinct is telling them to do. (Freeze, flight or fight. It's an instinct we all have in common.)
So by your reckoning, animals are not sentient, because while they experience instinctive reactions, they don't build on any emotions.
Am I correct? Is this what you're suggesting....?
After my father's heart attack and eventual resuscitation, he was alive but unconscious. He had a respirator to help his breathing. He had suffered such loss of blood to his brain that it was assessed that he would be much different if he were to wake up.
We decided that this should not happen to him. You could say that we had him put down with morphine.
Some years later, we basically made the same choice for my mother. Her quality of life sucked before she collapsed. Modern medicine can people alive in horrible circumstances.
I expect that my family will do the same for me. Hope so anyway.
Death is certain, some times you have to intervene.
The challenge comes with how sure the doctors are.
My father had a massive stroke and heart attack when he was in his late 50s. He was not expected to live, and if he did they said he would be in a nursing home for the rest of his life. But, he recovered fully, with the exception of being in a conversation and every once in a while a word would escape him. For example, he might say, "Today we are in danger of being hit by a (pause) I can't think of the word, but that spinning funnel cloud." That might happen once very 20 minutes of conversation. Otherwise, he returned to a totally normal life.
The same happened to my mother. A year after they told us it was hopeless for recovery (again from heart attack/stroke), she was vacationing in Europe.
Every conscientious person makes the best decisions / educated guesses they can in the moment. Not every case where doctors say oh it's not very promising or it's hopeless turns out that way, of course...Some do. The old vice versa thing.
I guess my personal preference would be to let me die if that is what evidence points to, rather than risk the shell of my body being kept alive so "I" can't go anywhere. I'd rather be set free. Some people spends years in vegetative states. If there is a high chance I can't have the life I prefer to live then let me go.