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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
That there is suffering in all that is impermanent is not to say all that is impermanent will always suffer.
There is also joy in impermanence.
After awakening, Buddha still knew the truth of impermanence but he did not suffer for it. He did not become immortal or stop aging physically but was content.
For me, awakening has to be more than just not suffering or I'm just going back to sleep.
If Buddha did not radiate a joy that was free from the opposite of suffering I would not have felt that he was onto something.
The 1st noble truth is just a call to see one aspect of the underlying nature of our existence and why there is a need to practice.
Good luck in tasking the mind to find a common definition to encompass this aspect of life when everyone shares a different sight line of the same inertia.
The best we can do is point towards how it touches us all and give it as a reference to why Buddhists practice the way that they do.
I think it is better described as an experience, than as a definition.
I was "lucky" that I actually attempted Rahula's book as one of the first books on Buddhism I ever read. I say attempted because I got quite overwhelmed and had to give up. It was then that I found Lama Surya Das' "Awakening the Buddha Within" and read his series.
I have since re read Rahula's book, it still bends my mind but I think that's a good thing. I wholeheartedly concur with the term dissatisfaction
Some people seem to wanna have the Precepts both ways. They want to say they're not really that important, but then have a hissy fit when somebody eats a hamburger.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
"The argument, "Impermanent, therefore suffering, therefore nonself" is illogical. Of course, if we believe that something is permanent or has a self we may suffer when we discover that it is impermanent and without a separate self. But in many texts, suffering is regarded as one of the three dharma seals. To put suffering on the same level as impermanence and nonself is an error. Impermanence and nonself are universal. They are a mark of all things. Suffering is not."
--Thich Nhat Hanh: The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching
The Three Dharma Seals are actually impermanence, nonself and nirvana, he explains later.
life is suffering when separated from Self and attached to the not self. attached to impermanent things : wealth, health, happiness, sense enjoyment. When one is situated in Self realization, which consists of detachment/renunciation of impermanent things, they are able to remain in a transcendental joy no matter what impermanent situation is happening to their impermanent body. Good, or bad, it doesn't matter to a Self realized person. because both good and bad in this life are impermanent and will eventually give way to the other. detachment and renunciation is essential for escaping ''suffering'' and the wheel of birth and death. I read through some comments in this thread and find an unsettling amount of people trying to be intellectually clever, picking at 'this' or 'that' as if it is important. What is your goal in overcoming somebody intellectually? It will only cause them to feel belittled and engaged in suffering. Detach, Renounce, and all things will fall into place of the third noble truth, the cessation of suffering.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Guilt trips have never stopped my investigation into truth.
There's no need for anyone to feel belittled by sharing their views or even by having said views challenged.
If somebody suffers by being shown that there is more to life than suffering then eventually they should be able to have a pretty good laugh at sufferings expense.
are you a buddhist? If so, then you have submitted to the Buddha's teachings.The Four Noble Truths are very simple, with a very simple method to overcome life, death, suffering, stress, unsatisfaction, whatever else the nit pickers want to call it. The Eightfold Path, which is extremely clear. If you choose to nit pick over a single word of the first noble truth, rather than follow the eightfold path, then you are doing multiple things at once : claiming more authority/knowledge than the Buddha, doing yourself an injustice by not following the Path, and doing others an injustice who come across your irrelevant nitpicking who are not quite sure what buddhism is yet. The Buddha made himSelf quite clear, and it is out of laziness and insecurity that you would rather look for faults in a Truth than follow the prescribed method for enlightenment/detachment, the Eightfold Path. I hope you all read this, and reflect on what you have been doing. Buddhism is the way of the Middle Path, and if you have legitimate questions, read a book written by a Buddhist Master, or the direct teachings of the Buddha; do not over complicate what is simple in essence
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Who shook your pram this morning??
I love that you criticise other peoples' MOs when you clearly could do with modifying yours.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Unless we are to take things on faith, it is only natural to scrutinize.
Not all topics are for all people and this isn't a war.
Also, I have submitted to nothing as far as I am aware. I recognize the truth in the 1NT and it does not signal that life is equal to and nothing but suffering.
I think the distinction is important to the process and you may disagree.
Personally I am a Hinayanist, a very inferior class of Buddhist.
I agree that intellectually overcoming the small minded aspect of primarily ourselves is a valid goal.
Overcoming others whether Buddhas or the heretical Mahayana is simply wasted effort.
My experience of @ourself is somone who is engaging discernment and thoughtful reflection ... and I feel your reminder is well intended ...
my comment was stemmed from irritation at the lack of vinaya discipline in people here. expectation stemmed from false ego. just another lesson to be learned-don't let personal discipline influence how I think others should act. my apologies for confrontation
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@111 it is helpful if you intend to address someone specific, if you use the @ symbol and then their name. Otherwise no one is sure if you were talking to everyone, or just one person. It is sometimes good and necessary to point out when someone is "off" but chastising isn't always the best way to do it, either. Your post reminded me very much of my mother telling me, "You go to your room and think about what you've done!" which was rather a silly thing to me then, and is still now. Clearly, she intended for me to think of something that had not crossed my mind, so rather than sit down and discuss with me what she thought I wasn't getting, so expected me to come up with it by myself. It never happened. Well, not until like 20 years later.
my apologies friends, I may have knowledge but I am nowhere near a master of applying such knowledge...hence myself falling prey to passion! this is something i intend to diligently perfect. Thank you for feedback @karasti and @ourself and i wish you all the highest enlightenment
@ourself said:> "The argument, "Impermanent, therefore suffering, therefore nonself" is illogical. Of course, if we believe that something is permanent or has a self we may suffer when we discover that it is impermanent and without a separate self. But in many texts, suffering is regarded as one of the three dharma seals. To put suffering on the same level as impermanence and nonself is an error. Impermanence and nonself are universal. They are a mark of all things. Suffering is not."
--Thich Nhat Hanh: The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching
The sutttas say that the aggregates are impermanent and therefore unsatisfactory, and so not fit to be regarded as self, which is a little convoluted. But I can see his argument here.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@ourself said:
Who decides for us what is satisfactory?
Dead people?
I mean, that's a pretty subjective observation.
Anything without self is unsatisfactory. It is a universal principle, not a subjective notion.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Isn't it inherent in the nature of things? Observation is all that it takes. And that's why Buddha (and buddhists, generally) never questioned the three marks.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
That impermanence equals unsatisfying experience is completely subjective. To experience anything properly is to experience it's impermanence.
How can we ever be satisfied with something that is always the same?
The way you suffer may make you decide that change sucks but not me.
I would not like things to be static.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@ourself said: That impermanence equals unsatisfying experience is completely subjective.
The point is that suffering arises when we look for permanence in the impermanent, or substance in the insubstantial.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@ourself said: So stop doing that and you won't find dissatisfaction in experience.
Yeah, I've been trying to give it up for some time!
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Oh well. I suppose my answer is to practice mindfulness, paying close attention to experience to hopefully see what it's really like.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
Obviously easier said than done but that is the practice, is it not?
For the record, I do practice what I preach but am by no means a master.
@SpinyNorman said:
Oh well. I suppose my answer is to practice mindfulness, paying close attention to experience to hopefully see what it's really like.
Existence is Ice Cream
When enjoying, enjoy.
Ice Cream is limited
Thus we must party!
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Namada said:
With out the right side, there are no left side.
So what should we do?
Welcome the pain, and accept it for what it is?
Tough call... I'll take an Alieve if my sciatica acts up instead of sitting with the pain for weeks.
The dukkha-lite interpretation feels more manageable.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I think we're getting so caught up in the word, we're forgetting that there are three other factors to consider.
In isolation, the First Noble Truth is "Well, d'uh!" Whichever interpretation we put on it.
Forget precisely what it means. Leave aside, for one moment each individual's personal slant on it -
Comments
There is also joy in impermanence.
After awakening, Buddha still knew the truth of impermanence but he did not suffer for it. He did not become immortal or stop aging physically but was content.
For me, awakening has to be more than just not suffering or I'm just going back to sleep.
If Buddha did not radiate a joy that was free from the opposite of suffering I would not have felt that he was onto something.
Not that I ever met the guy or anything, lol.
I agree, and I think it is a lot more than that. I sometimes wonder if the focus on suffering is largely pragmatic.
@Shoshin
The 1st noble truth is just a call to see one aspect of the underlying nature of our existence and why there is a need to practice.
Good luck in tasking the mind to find a common definition to encompass this aspect of life when everyone shares a different sight line of the same inertia.
The best we can do is point towards how it touches us all and give it as a reference to why Buddhists practice the way that they do.
I think it is better described as an experience, than as a definition.
I was "lucky" that I actually attempted Rahula's book as one of the first books on Buddhism I ever read. I say attempted because I got quite overwhelmed and had to give up. It was then that I found Lama Surya Das' "Awakening the Buddha Within" and read his series.
I have since re read Rahula's book, it still bends my mind but I think that's a good thing. I wholeheartedly concur with the term dissatisfaction
_ /\ _
Some people seem to wanna have the Precepts both ways. They want to say they're not really that important, but then have a hissy fit when somebody eats a hamburger.
--Thich Nhat Hanh: The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching
The Three Dharma Seals are actually impermanence, nonself and nirvana, he explains later.
life is suffering when separated from Self and attached to the not self. attached to impermanent things : wealth, health, happiness, sense enjoyment. When one is situated in Self realization, which consists of detachment/renunciation of impermanent things, they are able to remain in a transcendental joy no matter what impermanent situation is happening to their impermanent body. Good, or bad, it doesn't matter to a Self realized person. because both good and bad in this life are impermanent and will eventually give way to the other. detachment and renunciation is essential for escaping ''suffering'' and the wheel of birth and death. I read through some comments in this thread and find an unsettling amount of people trying to be intellectually clever, picking at 'this' or 'that' as if it is important. What is your goal in overcoming somebody intellectually? It will only cause them to feel belittled and engaged in suffering. Detach, Renounce, and all things will fall into place of the third noble truth, the cessation of suffering.
There's no need for anyone to feel belittled by sharing their views or even by having said views challenged.
If somebody suffers by being shown that there is more to life than suffering then eventually they should be able to have a pretty good laugh at sufferings expense.
Just sayin...
are you a buddhist? If so, then you have submitted to the Buddha's teachings.The Four Noble Truths are very simple, with a very simple method to overcome life, death, suffering, stress, unsatisfaction, whatever else the nit pickers want to call it. The Eightfold Path, which is extremely clear. If you choose to nit pick over a single word of the first noble truth, rather than follow the eightfold path, then you are doing multiple things at once : claiming more authority/knowledge than the Buddha, doing yourself an injustice by not following the Path, and doing others an injustice who come across your irrelevant nitpicking who are not quite sure what buddhism is yet. The Buddha made himSelf quite clear, and it is out of laziness and insecurity that you would rather look for faults in a Truth than follow the prescribed method for enlightenment/detachment, the Eightfold Path. I hope you all read this, and reflect on what you have been doing. Buddhism is the way of the Middle Path, and if you have legitimate questions, read a book written by a Buddhist Master, or the direct teachings of the Buddha; do not over complicate what is simple in essence
Who shook your pram this morning??
I love that you criticise other peoples' MOs when you clearly could do with modifying yours.
Unless we are to take things on faith, it is only natural to scrutinize.
Not all topics are for all people and this isn't a war.
Also, I have submitted to nothing as far as I am aware. I recognize the truth in the 1NT and it does not signal that life is equal to and nothing but suffering.
I think the distinction is important to the process and you may disagree.
Am I going to get upset about it?
Mu
The Buddha did also say not to take him for his word on anything, but to question it and investigate it.
There's no need to be critical of somebody else's questions.
I agree, ourself. Buddhism is not about submission.
Personally I am a Hinayanist, a very inferior class of Buddhist.
I agree that intellectually overcoming the small minded aspect of primarily ourselves is a valid goal.
Overcoming others whether Buddhas or the heretical Mahayana is simply wasted effort.
My experience of @ourself is somone who is engaging discernment and thoughtful reflection ... and I feel your reminder is well intended ...
my comment was stemmed from irritation at the lack of vinaya discipline in people here. expectation stemmed from false ego. just another lesson to be learned-don't let personal discipline influence how I think others should act. my apologies for confrontation
I think you'll find us pretty harmless. Welcome, btw!
@111 it is helpful if you intend to address someone specific, if you use the @ symbol and then their name. Otherwise no one is sure if you were talking to everyone, or just one person. It is sometimes good and necessary to point out when someone is "off" but chastising isn't always the best way to do it, either. Your post reminded me very much of my mother telling me, "You go to your room and think about what you've done!" which was rather a silly thing to me then, and is still now. Clearly, she intended for me to think of something that had not crossed my mind, so rather than sit down and discuss with me what she thought I wasn't getting, so expected me to come up with it by myself. It never happened. Well, not until like 20 years later.
my apologies friends, I may have knowledge but I am nowhere near a master of applying such knowledge...hence myself falling prey to passion! this is something i intend to diligently perfect. Thank you for feedback @karasti and @ourself and i wish you all the highest enlightenment
Some of us are also clueless, but we try hard anyway
I think it would serve everyone justly to accept the first noble truth as simply "the noble truth of suffering".
There is simply nothing to derive out of suffering that isn't suffering. Suffering just is.
I'm not.
^ yeah, @lobster has claws.
I came across a Charlie Chaplin quote: "Nothing is permanent in this wicked world - not even our troubles". Nice one, Charlie.
The sutttas say that the aggregates are impermanent and therefore unsatisfactory, and so not fit to be regarded as self, which is a little convoluted. But I can see his argument here.
Dead people?
I mean, that's a pretty subjective observation.
Anything without self is unsatisfactory. It is a universal principle, not a subjective notion.
Can you prove this assertion?
The way we suffer tells us that.
Isn't it inherent in the nature of things? Observation is all that it takes. And that's why Buddha (and buddhists, generally) never questioned the three marks.
That impermanence equals unsatisfying experience is completely subjective. To experience anything properly is to experience it's impermanence.
How can we ever be satisfied with something that is always the same?
The way you suffer may make you decide that change sucks but not me.
I would not like things to be static.
No, it isn't. And yes, many Buddhists do question the 3 marks.
When have you ever perceived suffering to be inherent in all things besides reading it somewhere?
You may mean all sentient beings but even then it is not universal because not all of us want there to be a separate self.
I mean, can you tell me how a blade of grass could possibly suffer delusions?
The point is that suffering arises when we look for permanence in the impermanent, or substance in the insubstantial.
So stop doing that and you won't find dissatisfaction in experience.
That is the actual point.
Yeah, I've been trying to give it up for some time!
As long as you think it can't be done it won't be.
Oh well. I suppose my answer is to practice mindfulness, paying close attention to experience to hopefully see what it's really like.
For the record, I do practice what I preach but am by no means a master.
I even take myself with a grain of salt.
Existence is Ice Cream
When enjoying, enjoy.
Ice Cream is limited
Thus we must party!
I like that except the last line somehow.
Ice cream?! You were lucky, we just had frozen salt.
With out the right side, there are no left side.
So what should we do?
Welcome the pain, and accept it for what it is?
Tough call... I'll take an Alieve if my sciatica acts up instead of sitting with the pain for weeks.
It would seem that we can't even reach a consensus on the First Noble Truth ( Well that's bloody "dukkha" for ya ...Thanks for 'nothing' Buddha
)
The dukkha-lite interpretation feels more manageable.
I think we're getting so caught up in the word, we're forgetting that there are three other factors to consider.
In isolation, the First Noble Truth is "Well, d'uh!" Whichever interpretation we put on it.
Forget precisely what it means. Leave aside, for one moment each individual's personal slant on it -
What are you going to do about it?