Caring for self/caring for other
gracelee
Veteran
Hello everyone,
I have a strong belief in the importance of learning to love the self as someone said to me recently “ so within ,so without… or in other words as Buddhist I believe we are learning to care for everything to see everything as sacred. And if you don’t care and have respect for yourself then you won’t be able to care and respect life as there is no separation. This being said I am wondering and frequently have self-judgement about how much time and attention my self-care takes and the impact this has on other things in my life.
I have anxiety, insomnia and problems with low energy and addictions.(mostly food) it takes so much energy to get myself to eat well, exercise, meditate etc. that this takes up most of my time and focus. It means that I often forget to reply to texts, remember peoples birthdays, have time for friends and responsibilities etc. also as an example I say to myself I will start recycling and caring about the environment etc. when I get to place where I am able to consistently take care of myself… but unfortunately I have a feeling my battle with self-care will be life long and therefore I might not get to this other stuff. When I think about being really ethical and following the 8 fold path diligently I feel a bit overwhelmed.
Sometimes I think I am pretty self-obsessed and perhaps self-indulgent. I do volunteer at my local women’s refuge one day a week but apart from this I am mostly focused on myself and getting well.
I know there are a spectrum of different views on this within Buddhism… "like cherish others and forget the self" but then I know some people are the "you can’t give from an empty vessel" camp.
So what do you think?
Grace
Comments
If you would like my serious and honest, compassionate opinion, I truly believe you need to consult a doctor, and maybe even get therapeutic counselling. This sounds overwhelming and I don't think you can cope or deal with the enormity of what you feel ails you, on your own...
@gracelee said "I have a strong belief in the importance of learning to love the self as someone said to me recently “ so within ,so without… or in other words as Buddhist I believe we are learning to care for everything to see everything as sacred. And if you don’t care and have respect for yourself then you won’t be able to care and respect life as there is no separation. This being said I am wondering and frequently have self-judgement about how much time and attention my self-care takes and the impact this has on other things in my life."
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Thanks for sharing your issues, and it would be great if you could find a counselor or doctor to help with them. I had open heart surgery a year ago and I had to help myself 24/7. If that's what it takes to keep you going and healthy, then that is what it takes. You have to stop worrying about the philosophy of it all -- the bit about caring for others first or caring for yourself. You can't help others if you aren't in good shape yourself and that's what makes sense to me. (Incidentally, self-care is forever ... isn't it.)
It takes a lot of thought and energy to keep every person going every day. Just most of us don't think about it as much as we should and that's why we shove our faces with bad food and don't meditate or exercise. We don't have time and energy because we put it all into our jobs and raising kids and none of it into ourselves. As always, the key is finding a balance. But that includes remembering what balance is. Can you balance on a ball without constantly making adjustments? You lean one way so that you don't fall the other way, but then you have to adjust the opposite a few seconds later. Life is no different. We all have things we have to prioritize and balance, and it's certainly not easy.
But when you deal with anxieties and other things they might need to be addressed separately so that you can balance out everything else. If you are constantly dealing with high levels of anxieties and addictions you are never in balance. Then we need someone to help us find it and regain it. For some it's much more difficult than others, but the proper help and support make a difference.
My own personal belief is that even caring for others versus oneself has to be a balance. And I don't think it's impossible to care for others if you aren't quite there for yourself. Parents have to do it all the time, especially with babies or ill children. It cannot go on for eternity, but most certainly a person can put more of themselves into the care of someone else for a time. Then you learn to balance by stealing moments and opportunities where you can to go for a walk, take a bath, read a book, meditate, or whatever. One day maybe you get to go for a 3 hour hike, but then maybe you don't get to do anything for 2 days. It all balances out, which is what matters. I don't worry about keeping score or keeping track so much. I go entirely based on how I feel. Sometimes I get overwhelmed and know I have to let something else go to get myself on track, and usually I know what I need and how much time. But it's taken years to get to the point that I have a good idea of how to balance it all and I most certainly don't get it right all the time.
Hi thanks for the concern,
I have been in therapy for few years now (single, group and couples!) I have a good support network and do a lot of other theraputic stuff... 5 rhytms dancing, art therapy, etc... but that is kinda what I mean... I spend all my time looking after myself. a lot of focusing on me... like I said sometimes I wonder if it's too much. But mostly I can see that it is necessary.
Thanks
Thanks @karasti.. that makes a lot of sense. About finding balance. And I guess like you said it is possible to care for others without caring for self.. just maybe not sustainable.
@gracelee before one can really care for others they must care for themselves...
Keep caring for yourself and eventually like a pebble dropped into a pond this caring will spread
To @gracelee -- I think you're so used to thinking about the support groups and classes as a one-way street where you are the receiver of all the attention and energies, but you are part of a support group(s) and you are giving as much as getting but you've felt in need all this time and now are getting strong enough to look around and aware of your growing strength and want to give more. Sounds like you're doing rather well...and all because you were aware that you needed help. Aces.
I agree with the above sentiments as well. Don't think of caring for yourself as some selfish notion. Sometimes doing so is the best give you can give, to those around you as well as yourself. Taking care of you means you are in a better position to be there for others in whatever way you are able. People who continually neglect themselves and sometimes even distract themselves away from their self care in the name of helping others eventually end up in a place where they aren't really helping anyone. Sometimes their heart might be in the right place but they aren't open to what is truly needed. Sometimes, caring for others can be a huge ego activity, too. I don't consider self-care to be selfish at all, not with the negative suggestion that "selfish" usually carries. I might sometimes have to drop what I need to tend to someone else. But on the average I prioritize and my needs are the first thing I tend to. I just arrange my day so that that can happen without harming others in the process. I get up early and run and do yoga and meditate. It sets up my day well and allows me to be there when my kids need me later in the morning. I am calmer and more patient and more willing to be receptive to their needs once mine are met.
Here in the US I rarely if ever recommend people go to a doctor, especially without knowing them personally. Even if I did know them personally, such advice sounds just plain rude to me. I don't get how people can so frequently suggest therapy and seeing health care people, especially without understanding the implications.
For example, in the US, there was a big movement toward homeopathy and nutritional awareness in the middle of the 1900s. Then, there was a huge (rich-person-backed) movement in the Midwest (Rockefeller and Carnegie) that changed the whole game of health. The idea was that the body, with all its ailments problems and diseases was the only thing we had to "cure" to make life livable, happy, wonderful, without taking any care for someone's mental well-being, and in fact calling it "mental well-being" or "mental health" is the most preposterous adoption in all of medical science because your well-being is how you feel, not how stimulated or balanced your chemical systems are.
So, I am really opposed to people recommending doctor visits without a) knowing the doctor personally, b) knowing the potential patient personally, and c) knowing if the doctor will simply prescribe medication to "fix" whatever problem there is as is so sadly common in these times, or actually prescribe methods of lifestyle awareness that will lead to true health improvement and change.
Should one take care of oneself before taking care of others? Sometimes. Ideally, you reach a point in your practice where your "self" doesn't even come into play, and that would in fact be living a pure life of compassion and helpfulness. Do you need to be there right this instant? Na, it's called a path for a reason.
So don't feel overwhelmed with things. If you want to ride your bike to Nebraska you gotta know the end point. Maybe some landmarks, which roads to take, but even when you're checking your compass you still have to look right in front of you so you don't drive off a hillside or a ditch.
Balance is really important but if you're looking for priorities I have learned that it's really important to
If you had to prioritize who to help this is a great way to do so. Doing so will enable you to take better care of yourself, and also help dissolve the barrier that is "myself" and "other people"
It's not like after the Lion of the Shakyas attained enlightenment that he stopped eating food and drinking water. Just the opposite, he found the middle way, and taught it for so many years to show people the way to liberation and peace for oneself and others.
Insomnia will wreck your deck, though. If you have the cash, get an awesome mattress, one of those space foam ones or whatever. Or even just a layer of form-fitting foam that lays over top your bed. Getting great sleep, although totally secondary to the spiritual path, is one of the most fundamental ways to improving your everyday life. You will sleep soundly, you won't "bust awake" in the middle of the night, and you'll be better able to recall your dreams and actually witness what is working well and what is stressing you out in your waking life. If that is too much a hassle, get a hammock and see if your sleep improves.
You gotta be your own physician and your own therapist in Dharma. Yes, go see professionals, yes learn the wonderful techniques they have to offer, but also share your good advice and what you've learned along the way if you think it will be of benefit to someone.
@sova, a suggestion doesn't necessarily have to be a recommendation. Sometimes people here post sensitive medical and mental health information and I think often therapy of some sort can be more helpful than listening to the ramblings of dozens of complete strangers from the internet. It's not so much a leap to judgement or assumption as it is a precautionary "be cautious whose advice you take, make sure you are considering taking advice from someone qualified." It certainly never stops others from seeking advice from NB members
Just a good reminder, I think. There are a variety of options available for official assistance dealing with heavy issues, it doesn't have to be a psychologist or a family medical doctor.
I see doctors rarely because I know my body quite well and mostly know better than they do what is needed. What is frustrating is when you know you need something you have to get from a doctor and have to play their games and jump their hoops. They certainly don't want to listen, and most certainly they don't want to listen to someone who sees the doctor once every 8 years, lol.
I think this is a great place to start to learn about how to know what you truly need. But as much as you read and learn from others, it's only words unless you can put it into practice and some people need various forms of help before they can even get to that point.
Thanks @karasti ..
it's an excellent point you bring up, "how to know what you truly need"
@gracelee: i saw your above posts, but i have not read all replies, so may be what i say below is already said - if it is,then i am sorry to waste your time in your reading my this post. even though i would try to suggest something to you, you can freely ignore what i say below, as i am a stupid person, who has not enough wisdom to handle my own life properly, but still since i feel it is easier to give advice to others than to do it myself, so becoming a hypocrite i would suggest below things:
as far as caring for yourself is concerned, please try not to add extra suffering to you in addition to the already existing suffering you may be having - like for example, worrying too much and making a concern for something like whether you are able to take care of others more than yourself or not, is like making extra suffering over a thing like care, which is done to remove suffering.
as far as caring for others is concerned, please do it, as and when you get the opportunity - there is no race going on and no points to achieve and no points table, showing that if the total points achieved for caring others reaches to this level, then you will be qualified as a very caring person - so relax. the intention to have a caring attitude towards others is more important than whether you actually got time and opportunity to practice caring towards others. at the least, you can do loving-kindness meditation both towards yourself and others, while sitting in your room. i read somewhere that thoughts have power and influence things.
moreover, caring for yourself is caring for others because by doing it, you are not creating pain for others in taking care of your health by having to look after your health.
i heard a line in the movie The Tibetian Book of the Dead , which said - it seems that without really caring for others, we would not really know our own minds - so as per this sentence, it implies that caring for others is caring for yourself and also this is because when we care for others, then we help ourselves by reducing our ego, which would help us in reducing our defilements and thereby we take care of ourselves indirectly.
metta to you and all sentient beings.
I'm pretty sure that we in the West have got this arse-backwards. I think if we firstly love others, then we'll end up with love for ourselves.
You don't even have to feel love for others, just go and help someone - take the action (the feelings don't matter in this respect) - and then look to see what that does to your own sense of self esteem.
A.A. is pretty clever in this area; most alkies come to A.A. with low self esteem; we often hate ourselves for what we've done and how we are. So A.A. gets us to look at ourselves, make amends to those we've harmed (if it doesn't cause others further harm), and then help other alkies.
Self love is a result of loving others; it happens after as far as my experience has shown me.
Interesting thread. Great answers
If necessary, in fact maybe even essential, then everything is going well for you and others.
People always give advice that is, 'if I were you'. However as you know the original poster the best, what would your 'if I were you' advice for her be? That might be helpful ...
I think it is nice to meet you Grace. My name is Angel.
Thanks everyone, so many useful responses, that video is sweet @Shoshin
@sova "Here in the US I rarely if ever recommend people go to a doctor, especially without knowing them personally. Even if I did know them personally, such advice sounds just plain rude to me. I don't get how people can so frequently suggest therapy and seeing health care people, especially without understanding the implications."
I get both sides of this... on the one hand I believe it is important for people to be encouraged to get professional help especially rather than just taking the advice of people online.... there is so much wisdom on this site but at the end of the day we have no idea who we are really talking to and whether their advice is worth taking etc. on the other hand I have very little faith in doctors and all the "help" i was offered was some antidepressants that made me sick and 6 sessions of counselling! at least here in the UK that is free.
@misecmisc1 "as far as caring for others is concerned, please do it, as and when you get the opportunity - there is no race going on and no points to achieve and no points table, showing that if the total points achieved for caring others reaches to this level, then you will be qualified as a very caring person - so relax. the intention to have a caring attitude towards others is more important than whether you actually got time and opportunity to practice caring towards others."
this has been really helpful to me, sometimes I forget that i don't need to fix anything or try really hard to get to a place where I can be worthy.... ahhhhh and relax!
@Tosh "You don't even have to feel love for others, just go and help someone - take the action (the feelings don't matter in this respect) - and then look to see what that does to your own sense of self esteem."
I really value your input because you're in the forget self camp! I have two issues with your ideas... firstly if loving others was a way to love the self.. then wouldn't codependents be the happiest people? and I don't like the idea of self esteem... self esteem is a belief we hold about a false self. high self esteem involves having beliefs that I hold about my value and are formed in comparison to others and so it is impossible for all being s to have high self esteem... some people have to be losers for some to feel like winners. either way feeling good about your ego is just as useless as feeling bad about it... ego is ego right? I like the idea of valuing myself and others unconditionally because they have intrinsic value.. anyway I'd love to hear your opinions?
@lobster great Idea! I think if I was advising someone else I would just say to relax and to gently move towards the goal of helping others but without it being a condition of their worth. that they do not need to help others to be of value but that it is what their heart would want. and that you are doing the best you can in every moment with what you have.... hmmmm well that's a nice bit of clarity, thanks
@yagr Hi Angel... nice name!
Thanks again everyone
I think the key is that it has to come from a true place. Are those who are co-dependent REALLY loving and doing in the best interest of the other person? Or have they just convinced themselves that that is what they are doing? Just because someone believes something, doesn't make it true. Most co-dependent people I've known (and I've been one, as well) lie to themselves a lot. And, often times all their "loving" and "helping" is all feeding their ego and their own needs. Not selflessly giving of and to others with no expectation of anything in return. When we talk ourselves into believing we are helping someone when that result is not good for them, then what we are doing isn't really helping, is it?
So then the question becomes (for me) can you access that part of yourself that allows you help freely, compassionately, selflessly and without expectation if you do not already offer yourself those things? Most people who are out there helping already have stable lives of some degree. A place to live, regular meals to eat, support of some sort, a stable belief system (whatever it might be) and security-which includes food and shelter but mental and emotional stability, too. Can someone who doesn't have all those things truly give of themselves? I'm not saying they can't, which is why I'm asking. Those I know who help others in small and big ways, are pretty much stable people in all ways. by the way, I'm not suggesting the OP is unstable, by any means. I just mean if you have issues to work on yourself, usually you are so focused on them that getting to that area of yourself that allows you to give freely to others is pretty hard.
That said, one can always be kind and offer a smile to everyone they come in touch with. Open a door, carry a grocery bag and so on. Those little things make a big difference to people and don't require you to give much of yourself. And then as you do those little things, things start to change in you.
Yeah that makes sense.. so it's about intention.. like I guess if I am recycling in order to feel valuable Vs recycling because I genuinley care about the environment. And that is where I find myself because it is hard to care about the environment when you cannot meet yoyr basic needs...
I guess what it comes down to for me in my own life is when I give up the things I need to do to care for myself, then everything falls like dominoes and I have less to give others. Even when I am "high maintenance" sometimes, giving something of myself that requires me to give up what I need on a regular basis just doesn't work. I have less patience, less compassion, less everything. I cannot give from my cup if my cup is running on empty. Others may be different, at this point in my life that is just where I am at. Other times in my life I didn't have anything else to give.
But remember that giving, in whatever form it is, isn't limited to strangers. I think people often forget what they give to friends, family, roommates, and others in our lives on a daily basis. That "counts", too. Sometimes I feel like I am not doing enough for others, and then I remember all I do for my kids and my husband and my pets and my relatives. Just because I might not be out there stocking the food pantry shelves or spooning soup on Thanksgiving for the homeless doesn't mean I'm not giving anything.
That has not been my experience. My definition of codependence is: Doing something for someone else and then resenting them for it. This is not possible when I act out of love for others...only when I act out of love for self.
Co dependency is still about the self. I'm in A.A. and I help alkies. I'm no way co-dependant about whether they drink or not.
As for self esteem, all that is is basically our concept of ourselves and we will all have one.
I think that some knowledge can't be gained by analysing or even contemplating; you just have to do it (i.e. practise compassion) and you'll find the insights from there.
I get it that codependants give in order to recieve.. but isn't that similar to giving in order to get self-esteem?
@Tosh "I think that some knowledge can't be gained by analysing or even contemplating; you just have to do it (i.e. practise compassion) and you'll find the insights from there"
I agree with this... although I enjoy trying to get an understsndimg of things.... it's good to experiment and see what works... I did try a 12 step programe and it wasn't for me. I can see how helpful it is for others though. My experience of it was pretty harsh but I have since realised that it may have had a lot to do with choosing a sponser who wasn't very well herself.
I think deep down I am in the love self, then other camp... it's good to question this... doubt is my strength and my weakness.
Thanks guys
Grace
Me too. My experience is that if I'm giving myself a hard time then I haven't got much to give anyone else.
But people are different, so it's probably just a question of what works best for individuals.
The clever thing about spiritual practises is that we can experiment. Just try 'loving yourself' as if it's a verb. Then if that doesn't work out, try something different.
Even during needed time to take care of "me" we can still be kind to others so don't sweat it.
You may eventually find that being kind to others is the best thing you can do for you.
Indeed, helping someone is one of the best ways to get out of personal funk for a while.
There is a Sufi story about a rich unhappy guy inviting a sage into his house hoping for some advice. They talk for a while but it goes nowhere. Then the sage suddenly falls on the ground and fakes a heart attack. The guy immediately switches gears to help the supposedly sick sage. In the end his unhappiness disappears...I have had experiences in this vein (even though not as dramatic) and can swear to the great wisdom of this story.
But be that as it may, I feel that we have basic needs, such as sufficient rest, adequate nutrition and safety, both physical and emotional. If those aren't met, I doubt we can be very effectual helping others, at least not sustainably. I find that sometimes I get into such a bad state, that I just need to say "f. it" and lay low for a while until I'm any good to be around. I guess my initial interest in meditation was exactly a result of looking for ways to lay low and retreat while the mind settles down.