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Yes, I can find my subjective self easy enough without pointing to anything in particular.
It's all in the action.
Ok so all these billions of cells are multiplying, talking to each other. Bones growing by themselves, neurons firing by themselves, hearing happens, growth happens, hormones happen, consciousness happens, breathing happens, seeing happens, taste happens, thoughts happen.
But there is a puppet master who controls "voluntary movements" and conscious attention?
Everything else just happens to "you"
I know how you feel mate, trust me I still feel like that but I've seen it is not real. There is no self.
Once you see this, object/subject division drops. There is no more "other" you are your experience. Not the observer of it. The peace and awe is incredible. All seemingly boundaries drop. And you see it's always been this way. Only conditioned belief pulls you back,
Sigh* I know how it sounds. What started this all was the realisation that thoughts are not controllable. The "controller" is only ever found in thoughts.
I still believed I choose to move my leg or get a cup. But the thought "I chose to do that" comes AFTER the decision was made.
I was watching my legs and trying to catch the moment when "I decided" to move my legs. And then I saw my leg move with no exact decision. It just happened.
And then bang... The penny dropped.
All awareness just expanded.
Don't worry it cones back quickly, conditioning is hard to break.
Metta my friend.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited July 2015
@Earthninja said:
Ok so all these billions of cells are multiplying, talking to each other. Bones growing by themselves, neurons firing by themselves, hearing happens, growth happens, hormones happen, consciousness happens, breathing happens, seeing happens, taste happens, thoughts happen.
But there is a puppet master who controls "voluntary movements" and conscious attention?
Everything else just happens to "you"
I know how you feel mate, trust me I still feel like that but I've seen it is not real. There is no self.
None of that made any sense whatsoever, sorry. Cells talking to each other? Bones growing by themselves?
Do you not see the contradiction between "I know how you feel" and "There is no self"?
Besides using word like "sufferer" or "puppet master" what is your definition of "self"?
Once you see this, object/subject division drops. There is no more "other" you are your experience. Not the observer of it. The peace and awe is incredible. All seemingly boundaries drop. And you see it's always been this way. Only conditioned belief pulls you back,
Been there, done that. However, if you are your experience then there you are, don't you see? You don't need to keep harping about a so called "other" or an "observer" because we are past that.
I can observe but I am not an observer. Once the subject/object division drops, it is not one or the other but just experience.
Afterwards, I do the remembering of the experience though and there I am... In the remembering.
Sigh* I know how it sounds. What started this all was the realisation that thoughts are not controllable. The "controller" is only ever found in thoughts.
You keep repeating this but to be honest it means nothing to me. It's just mental masterbation because it doesn't further the plot.
So there is no subjective self period. Ok, fine, I'll bite.
So what?
How does compassion fit in to this idea?
I still believed I choose to move my leg or get a cup. But the thought "I chose to do that" comes AFTER the decision was made.
I was watching my legs and trying to catch the moment when "I decided" to move my legs. And then I saw my leg move with no exact decision. It just happened.
You absolutely sure about that? These things can happen pretty fast.
Sometimes my leg can get a spasm but usually, I make the decision to move before I move.
Since you say you were watching your leg, you do understand I cannot take your claim of no self seriously, right?
I would agree that there is not a thing that can be said to be the self but that is not the same as there being no self at all.
Don't worry it cones back quickly, conditioning is hard to break.
Please... I'm trying not to be condescending so try to do me the same courtesy, okie doke?
I know you claim to have no control over these things but hey. (Haha)
@ourself said:
None of that made any sense whatsoever, sorry. Cells talking to each other? Bones growing by themselves?
Do you not see the contradiction between "I know how you feel" and "There is no self"?
Besides using word like "sufferer" or "puppet master" what is your definition of "self"?
I don't mean literally cells talking, but there is communication between them that "you" are unaware of. Like how you grow your bones? You have no idea yet you do it.
I do know how you feel because that feeling of being a "self" is here. But I know without a doubt it's untrue.
"Self" can mean different things for everyone.
self = egoic sense
Self = pure universal awareness, unbound, not personal, doesn't choose anything.
SELF = "That which is aware of ^^^" I haven't experienced this. Dunno nirvana?
Been there, done that. However, if you are your experience then there you are, don't you see? You don't need to keep harping about a so called "other" or an "observer" because we are past that.
I can observe but I am not an observer. Once the subject/object division drops, it is not one or the other but just experience.
Afterwards, I do the remembering of the experience though and there I am... In the remembering.
So are you just a memory? If you have been there and done that, and all is just experience, how can "you" choose anything? Can pure experience choose? Or does choosing occur and there is awareness of it.
You keep repeating this but to be honest it means nothing to me. It's just mental masterbation because it doesn't further the plot.
So there is no subjective self period. Ok, fine, I'll bite.
So what?
How does compassion fit in to this idea?
I love our conversations compassion arises when you see "you" and the "other" in one complete awareness. Everything is equal. Just life expressing itself in another body. Yet you will never experience them. Only through this awareness. I'm sure it goes deeper than this. I can not say. I'm a newbie.
You absolutely sure about that? These things can happen pretty fast.
Sometimes my leg can get a spasm but usually, I make the decision to move before I move.
Since you say you were watching your leg, you do understand I cannot take your claim of no self seriously, right?
I would agree that there is not a thing that can be said to be the self but that is not the same as there being no self at all.
When I say "I" was watching, I'm using this under the inference that you know I'm not being literal. I have to communicate this somehow. There is no self in existence other than a thought. There is a body and mind.
Please... I'm trying not to be condescending so try to do me the same courtesy, okie doke?
I know you claim to have no control over these things but hey. (Haha)
I don't have control but conditioning plays out right? Choices are still made. "Just not by a self"
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
If you aren't being literal then what are you being?
What do you think "self" is exactly?
You claim to be a newby but there is no chance you are wrong in claiming that you do not exist?
I feel silly just saying that.
Ok well I tried my best to explain it. Newby as far as transcending suffering goes.
Mate if you see with unshakable clarity there is no "you" apart from thoughts you will understand. You can't unsee it. It's always here and always has been.
Metta
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@SpinyNorman said:
Do you mean some kind of universal consciousness, maybe like in Advaita?
Yes but it is also localised, this the experience but I believe this still isn't full realisation. Because even consciousness is dependant on what is not consciousness. So still more delusions to see through. Lots... Hahah,
@ourself said:
You did fine explaining it but you failed at making sense. Then again, people that don't exist can hardly be expected to be logical
You can't try your best if you don't exist. This isn't rocket science.
Why is it so hard for you to define that which you reject?
Hahaha. Ok I'll try define it.
There is a sense that there is a controller of this body and mind. It normally feels like it's behind the eyes and looks out at the world. This is what we call ourselves. The person. It has a story that changes and a history. It has changing likes and dislikes. It has beliefs, fears and dreams.
It believes it thinks thoughts and has some control of thoughts. It controls the limbs, conscious attention and sometimes breathing.
It says this is "my body" and "my mind" as if it is the owner of these.
The "I" thought happens enough that even when it is not functioning there is still belief in it.
It tells stories about almost everything. Especially "other people"
What I'm refuting is this "owner" of the body and mind is just a heavily conditioned thought pattern that arises due to language and people telling is who we are at a young age.
Once it starts it has it's own momentum.
If you catch "the ego" in action, you see through the illusion. It's clear as daylight you are not it.
And then all sorts of other beliefs begin to fall.
@Earthninja said:Yes but it is also localised, this the experience but I believe this still isn't full realisation. Because even consciousness is dependant on what is not consciousness.
So do you mean like a higher ( universal ) consciousness which we can "connect" with?
@SpinyNorman said:
So do you mean like a higher ( universal ) consciousness which we can "connect" with?
No, more like a localised consciousness but there are no boundaries. It just expands out.
There is an intuitive knowing that this is the exact same consciousness as all other beings. It's formless and limitless and feels intelligent. Hence the universal.
Not connecting to it. You ARE it!
I've heard that realising shunyata and Anatta fully negates what I wrote above. That it is impersonal. There is no you. It just is. **mind blows*** hahaha
I don't think it's a Jhana as they are a result of intense concentration. They come and go right? Peak meditation experience.
This is more like a ground of being. It's always on but really noticed. The suttas refer to it as luminous mind I think?
It's always present, it's more intimate than thoughts or breath, these are perceived in it. It does have peak moments of peace and clarity but it's still bit something that anybody can achieve. It's always here. Like a light.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited July 2015
@Earthninja said:
There is a sense that there is a controller of this body and mind. It normally feels like it's behind the eyes and looks out at the world. This is what we call ourselves. The person. It has a story that changes and a history. It has changing likes and dislikes. It has beliefs, fears and dreams.
This is the subjective perspective. It comes in handy when experiencing a point of view from the absolute.
It believes it thinks thoughts and has some control of thoughts. It controls the limbs, conscious attention and sometimes breathing.
Sometimes, it believes it has no control but the truth is likely somewhere in the Middle.
It says this is "my body" and "my mind" as if it is the owner of these.
Not always. I can use a tool without claiming ownership.
The "I" thought happens enough that even when it is not functioning there is still belief in it.
It tells stories about almost everything. Especially "other people"
What I'm refuting is this "owner" of the body and mind is just a heavily conditioned thought pattern that arises due to language and people telling is who we are at a young age.
Once it starts it has it's own momentum.
I think you will come to see that you can use this "I" label as a tool without having to get caught up in believing it is anything other than a means of expression.
The subjective self is an illusion. That only means it isn't as it seems.
If you catch "the ego" in action, you see through the illusion. It's clear as daylight you are not it.
And then all sorts of other beliefs begin to fall.
Thing is, we cannot catch the "ego" if "we" do not exist.
I agree the ego is not self though.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited July 2015
@Earthninja said:
No, more like a localised consciousness but there are no boundaries. It just expands out.
There is an intuitive knowing that this is the exact same consciousness as all other beings. It's formless and limitless and feels intelligent. Hence the universal.
Not connecting to it. You ARE it!
Now you're kind of speaking my language. It feels the same way to me as well except when I come back to center it feels like a unique expression of said consciousness.
When I think in these terms, the subjective self is a unique expression of the true self and still not to be negated.
The thought: "something is wrong" is the only thing wrong. When that thought vanishes and the next thought hasn't arisen yet; that is the wide open space of nirvana.
@ourself and @Shoshin , using ego as purely a tool and self referral system is great but you have to fully see it's non existence, not just agree it's not there.
Because the belief runs so deep.
If you still suffer, then you still believe you are a person. If you are conscious awareness, what problem would you have?
How can pure limitless awareness have goals in life?
Insight into this is to see without any doubt you are this, if you believe only, it's not enough. Suffering will continue.
I've only had experiences of seeing, the insight hadn't developed yet. I still get sucked into the stories.
You have to establish your identity.
A lot if people refer ego to only negative thoughts and emotions, but miss that ego is also the one that has positive thoughts.
Conscious awareness does not use ego as a tool. Awareness doesn't use anything. It just is. Either you are it or it is aware of you.
That's the subtlety.
This is more like a ground of being. It's always on but really noticed. The suttas refer to it as luminous mind I think?
It's always present, it's more intimate than thoughts or breath, these are perceived in it. It does have peak moments of peace and clarity but it's still bit something that anybody can achieve. It's always here. Like a light.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_mind
It would perhaps be useful to think in terms of a gem. We are people, that is we egoic, imperfect people. Which is everyone incidentally, we are the flaws in the diamond. That and the facets meeting the light create sparkle ...
It is the light that is perfect, without causation, boundless light. Light upon light. The light in this sense is constant and us as individual gems cascade and glitter through life ...
... and now back to misunderstanding Buddhism and meditation ...
[ edit: should have left the bad spelling, see next post - but whatever @federica has may be catching ... ]
@lobster said: ... and now back to miunderstanding Buddhism and meditation ...
Beautifully written, we are all perfectly imperfect right. Beauty in chaos. All a unique expression.
I'm more like a babbling baboon.
We need to realise the diamond that is in our pockets.
Cheers mate
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited July 2015
@Earthninja said:
ourself and Shoshin , using ego as purely a tool and self referral system is great but you have to fully see it's non existence, not just agree it's not there.
My experience tells me otherwise. Pretending it doesn't exist is illogical from this view.
Because the belief runs so deep.
No, it's because subjectivity is evolutionary and all just a part of the process of awareness. There is no reason to cling to it but no reason to show aversion either.
These are just growing pains in my honest opinion.
If you still suffer, then you still believe you are a person. If you are conscious awareness, what problem would you have?
Who said anything about a problem? Sure, we suffer but I see healing on the rise.
How can pure limitless awareness have goals in life?
Through the subjective experience. Self awareness was a critical step for us and now we are starting to see the next step is realizing that distinguishing is just a means to an end.
We are natural born explorers.
Insight into this is to see without any doubt you are this, if you believe only, it's not enough. Suffering will continue.
I've only had experiences of seeing, the insight hadn't developed yet. I still get sucked into the stories.
You have to establish your identity.
I just do the same as I would if I were watching a good movie and suspend my disbelief. Do you know what I mean? I know I am not the main character but I can still enjoy their story.
Nothing wrong with playing the part and really, without it, we would never get to experience a sunrise from so many different viewpoints.
A lot if people refer ego to only negative thoughts and emotions, but miss that ego is also the one that has positive thoughts.
Agreed.
Conscious awareness does not use ego as a tool. Awareness doesn't use anything. It just is. Either you are it or it is aware of you.
How could you know this? Do you suppose you are the only one on forum that has had these experiences?
Honest question, no offense intended.
I would imagine that unconscious awareness or universal awareness may not use ego as a tool intentionally but it works out that way. Conscious awareness would be sentient and would use ego as a tool once it is seen useful to do so.
How could you know this? Do you suppose you are the only one on forum that has had these experiences?
Honest question, no offense intended.
I don't know of I'm the only one who has had these experiences here. Who is to say. I'm only putting across what I've felt and invite others to share.
I would imagine that unconscious >awareness or universal awareness may not use ego as a tool intentionally but it works out that way. Conscious >awareness would be sentient and would use ego as a tool once it is seen useful to do so.
I think this is the point we are really disagreeing on. I think it's subtle but it is the main difference.
Ego doesn't exist, it's a concept. All you will ever find is thoughts. Self referring thoughts but still thoughts.
Conscious awareness does not use thoughts, it is the pure observer. It has no likes or intentions. Thoughts arise like the wind blows, and consciousness is aware. It doesn't use sounds, or use thoughts it is simply here.
The thoughts and intentions may take on a new flavour once the illusion is seen through fully but there is still one doing it. Not even consciousness.
@Shoshin said:
....and so are 'you'.... and your 'words' (Some food for thought perhaps Earthninja )
Definitely. No question about that. Just some people don't like hearing this, hence all the resistance. The ego wants enlightenment. Yet some get burnt in the search. Those are the liberated ones
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I understand you want to be right here but don't you think it's a little foolish to stake a claim to knowledge you admit to not experiencing?
Ive already explained this previously, once you see there is no self, other than a concept, like Batman. You can't unsee that. It's not about being right, I don't mind being wrong at all. This is the most important topic for me, it's the fundamental of who we are. We aren't who we think we are. Literally.
I may not be enlightened, but I know without a doubt what I'm not.
How can you be so sure what enlightenment entails when you yourself have yet to be enlightened?
I have no idea what enlightenment entails. I'm not even talking about what that is. I'm talking about who we take ourselves to be.
"I will use my ego" is just a thought but using it is action.
I don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.
If you feel like you are subjective, you will feel separation. And this hurts.
No amount of intellectual conclusion will help.
It's hard for me to grasp because I know it's not true.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@Earthninja sez: "There is no you. It just is. **mind blows*** hahaha"
A mind that enters seclusion is perfect for developing the enlightenment factors, that way, the secluded mind is non attached, it is not clinging. And before the factors of jhana one has to be secluded from sensual pleasures and secluded from unwholesome states at the start, I would say.
@bookworm said:
A mind that enters seclusion is perfect for developing the enlightenment factors, that way, the secluded mind is non attached, it is not clinging. And before the factors of jhana one has to be secluded from sensual pleasures and secluded from unwholesome states at the start, I would say.
Probably true, but a mind that is not prepared for, or trained for seclusion, will struggle to benefit from it.
Seclusion will not create unattachment in an unprepared mind, but probably increase it.
Try it!
@silver said:
Earthninja sez: "There is no you. It just is. **mind blows*** hahaha"
\\\
Yes, I believe it has (mind blown).
Certainly sounds that way right XD.
Metta
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Well, that's why Buddha warned against forming a conclusion about these things. (conjecturable)
Being subjective doesn't hurt just for being subjective. I am being subjective right now and I know I am not really separate. Pain does come with the experience but so does joy so I don't mind the pain as much.
So I know that you can only speak for yourself when you say what causes pain and what is untrue.
Using a tool and thinking about using a tool is not the same thing. If you are going to throw logic out the window and rely solely on intuition, I wish you the best but the two really do go better together.
If this matter is of the utmost importance I would suggest letting it go for a while. It isn't going anywhere.
As a hobby, fine but as an obsession it will probably cause you more pain than it alleviates.
"Now when I had eaten solid food and regained my strength, then quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. But such pleasant feeling that arose in me did not invade my mind and remain.
"Bhikkhus, these two extremes should not be followed by one who has gone forth into homelessness. What two? The pursuit of sensual happiness in sensual pleasures, which is low, vulgar, the way of worldlings, ignoble, unbeneficial; and the pursuit of self mortification, which is painful, ignoble, unbeneical. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata has awakened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana.
@ourself if you know more than intellectually you wouldn't have any more suffering. It would be as transient impersonal experience. Only you can answer this truthfully.
Thanks for the advice, I know you mean well. I am also on other forums and have guidance regarding this. They are far more realised than me. I just felt to share here.
If you see who you take yourself to be is false, trying to understand who you are becomes important. At least here. The Buddha left his family to understand life. Id say he didn't treat it as a hobby.
It's not serious but my interest is sincere. Any other search is a movement away. Who am I is the only real question worth asking.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
If it matters to you who you are then somewhere deep inside you know you are here. If you truly were not here, why would it matter who you are?
You caught a glimpse of the ultimate... Why not just leave it at that until the novelty wears off?
Please understand that Buddha did not leave his family. Sidhartha left his family. When Buddha woke up he headed back to them first.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@Earthninja said " I am also on other forums and have guidance regarding this. They are far more realised than me. I just felt to share here."
=====
Yes, you may believe they're more realized than you, but I myself would follow the Buddha's advice / warning to reserve final judgment on x, y or z, until you have it sorted out FOR YOUR OWN SELF. To me, it sounds like they're leading you around by the nose. Muuu!
Ok well I disagree with this. If you don't know who you are then you are ignorant. And our actions will be born from this place. Hence all the suffering.
I think it does matter who we think we are, the assumptions we make.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@ourself said:Isn't making the assumptions something we do?
It is, I suppose it's about questioning whether our assumptions are in fact correct.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Although trying to find out who we are is to be subjective.
I don't think that can really be argued.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I don't feel "Buddhist meditation" is about suppressing thoughts. That seems like a fool's task anyhow. I believe it's more about labeling and watching them phase out than anything. This article seems more like an attempt to distract people away from Buddhism who have an interest in meditation.
@namarupa said: This article seems more like an attempt to distract people away from Buddhism who have an interest in meditation.
Those wicked French-sounding philosophers are always evangelising! Sartre was another one, he followed the Buddha round and tried to persuade his followers that "Hell is other people". Not something an English gentleman would do.
I learned that meditation is the methods of the past according to Shakyamuni Buddha's prediction. Its in the scripture. It has been already over a thousand years since the latter days of the Law. Meditation was the 2nd 500years' practice, which is the practice of the correct Law age.(Right Dharma age or Former day of the Law )
I thought to make a comment here, but, discretion won the day. I'll let it go...too fine a line between brilliance and plain stupidity. Fascinating thread though.
Comments
Ok so all these billions of cells are multiplying, talking to each other. Bones growing by themselves, neurons firing by themselves, hearing happens, growth happens, hormones happen, consciousness happens, breathing happens, seeing happens, taste happens, thoughts happen.
But there is a puppet master who controls "voluntary movements" and conscious attention?
Everything else just happens to "you"
I know how you feel mate, trust me I still feel like that but I've seen it is not real. There is no self.
Once you see this, object/subject division drops. There is no more "other" you are your experience. Not the observer of it. The peace and awe is incredible. All seemingly boundaries drop. And you see it's always been this way. Only conditioned belief pulls you back,
Sigh* I know how it sounds. What started this all was the realisation that thoughts are not controllable. The "controller" is only ever found in thoughts.
I still believed I choose to move my leg or get a cup. But the thought "I chose to do that" comes AFTER the decision was made.
I was watching my legs and trying to catch the moment when "I decided" to move my legs. And then I saw my leg move with no exact decision. It just happened.
And then bang... The penny dropped.
All awareness just expanded.
Don't worry it cones back quickly, conditioning is hard to break.
Metta my friend.
None of that made any sense whatsoever, sorry. Cells talking to each other? Bones growing by themselves?
Do you not see the contradiction between "I know how you feel" and "There is no self"?
Besides using word like "sufferer" or "puppet master" what is your definition of "self"?
Been there, done that. However, if you are your experience then there you are, don't you see? You don't need to keep harping about a so called "other" or an "observer" because we are past that.
I can observe but I am not an observer. Once the subject/object division drops, it is not one or the other but just experience.
Afterwards, I do the remembering of the experience though and there I am... In the remembering.
You keep repeating this but to be honest it means nothing to me. It's just mental masterbation because it doesn't further the plot.
So there is no subjective self period. Ok, fine, I'll bite.
So what?
How does compassion fit in to this idea?
You absolutely sure about that? These things can happen pretty fast.
Sometimes my leg can get a spasm but usually, I make the decision to move before I move.
Since you say you were watching your leg, you do understand I cannot take your claim of no self seriously, right?
I would agree that there is not a thing that can be said to be the self but that is not the same as there being no self at all.
Please... I'm trying not to be condescending so try to do me the same courtesy, okie doke?
I know you claim to have no control over these things but hey. (Haha)
Do you not see the contradiction between "I know how you feel" and "There is no self"?
Besides using word like "sufferer" or "puppet master" what is your definition of "self"?
I don't mean literally cells talking, but there is communication between them that "you" are unaware of. Like how you grow your bones? You have no idea yet you do it.
I do know how you feel because that feeling of being a "self" is here. But I know without a doubt it's untrue.
"Self" can mean different things for everyone.
self = egoic sense
Self = pure universal awareness, unbound, not personal, doesn't choose anything.
SELF = "That which is aware of ^^^" I haven't experienced this. Dunno nirvana?
I can observe but I am not an observer. Once the subject/object division drops, it is not one or the other but just experience.
Afterwards, I do the remembering of the experience though and there I am... In the remembering.
So are you just a memory? If you have been there and done that, and all is just experience, how can "you" choose anything? Can pure experience choose? Or does choosing occur and there is awareness of it.
So there is no subjective self period. Ok, fine, I'll bite.
So what?
How does compassion fit in to this idea?
I love our conversations
compassion arises when you see "you" and the "other" in one complete awareness. Everything is equal. Just life expressing itself in another body. Yet you will never experience them. Only through this awareness. I'm sure it goes deeper than this. I can not say. I'm a newbie.
Sometimes my leg can get a spasm but usually, I make the decision to move before I move.
Since you say you were watching your leg, you do understand I cannot take your claim of no self seriously, right?
I would agree that there is not a thing that can be said to be the self but that is not the same as there being no self at all.
When I say "I" was watching, I'm using this under the inference that you know I'm not being literal. I have to communicate this somehow. There is no self in existence other than a thought. There is a body and mind.
I know you claim to have no control over these things but hey. (Haha)
I don't have control but conditioning plays out right? Choices are still made. "Just not by a self"
@Earthninja;
Sorry, still makes no sense.
If you aren't being literal then what are you being?
What do you think "self" is exactly?
You claim to be a newby but there is no chance you are wrong in claiming that you do not exist?
I feel silly just saying that.
Ok well I tried my best to explain it. Newby as far as transcending suffering goes.
Mate if you see with unshakable clarity there is no "you" apart from thoughts you will understand. You can't unsee it. It's always here and always has been.
Metta
You did fine explaining it but you failed at making sense. Then again, people that don't exist can hardly be expected to be logical.
You can't try your best if you don't exist. This isn't rocket science.
Why is it so hard for you to define that which you reject?
Do you mean some kind of universal consciousness, maybe like in Advaita?
Yes but it is also localised, this the experience but I believe this still isn't full realisation. Because even consciousness is dependant on what is not consciousness. So still more delusions to see through. Lots... Hahah,
Hahaha. Ok I'll try define it.
There is a sense that there is a controller of this body and mind. It normally feels like it's behind the eyes and looks out at the world. This is what we call ourselves. The person. It has a story that changes and a history. It has changing likes and dislikes. It has beliefs, fears and dreams.
It believes it thinks thoughts and has some control of thoughts. It controls the limbs, conscious attention and sometimes breathing.
It says this is "my body" and "my mind" as if it is the owner of these.
The "I" thought happens enough that even when it is not functioning there is still belief in it.
It tells stories about almost everything. Especially "other people"
What I'm refuting is this "owner" of the body and mind is just a heavily conditioned thought pattern that arises due to language and people telling is who we are at a young age.
Once it starts it has it's own momentum.
If you catch "the ego" in action, you see through the illusion. It's clear as daylight you are not it.
And then all sorts of other beliefs begin to fall.
So do you mean like a higher ( universal ) consciousness which we can "connect" with?
No, more like a localised consciousness but there are no boundaries. It just expands out.
There is an intuitive knowing that this is the exact same consciousness as all other beings. It's formless and limitless and feels intelligent. Hence the universal.
Not connecting to it. You ARE it!
I've heard that realising shunyata and Anatta fully negates what I wrote above. That it is impersonal. There is no you. It just is. **mind blows*** hahaha
That sounds very similar to the first formless jhana, infinite space.
No. 5 here: http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=4_jhanas_and_the_formless_realms
I've experienced something like this, very cool!
@SpinyNorman
I don't think it's a Jhana as they are a result of intense concentration. They come and go right? Peak meditation experience.
This is more like a ground of being. It's always on but really noticed. The suttas refer to it as luminous mind I think?
It's always present, it's more intimate than thoughts or breath, these are perceived in it. It does have peak moments of peace and clarity but it's still bit something that anybody can achieve. It's always here. Like a light.
This is the subjective perspective. It comes in handy when experiencing a point of view from the absolute.
Sometimes, it believes it has no control but the truth is likely somewhere in the Middle.
Not always. I can use a tool without claiming ownership.
I think you will come to see that you can use this "I" label as a tool without having to get caught up in believing it is anything other than a means of expression.
The subjective self is an illusion. That only means it isn't as it seems.
Thing is, we cannot catch the "ego" if "we" do not exist.
I agree the ego is not self though.
Now you're kind of speaking my language. It feels the same way to me as well except when I come back to center it feels like a unique expression of said consciousness.
When I think in these terms, the subjective self is a unique expression of the true self and still not to be negated.
~Jackson Peterson on facebook
"One is simple ones experience and ones ego is the abstraction from those experiences!"
And through mind training the ego can become a 'convenient' analytical device, instead of a burden/obstacle blocking the path
@ourself and @Shoshin , using ego as purely a tool and self referral system is great but you have to fully see it's non existence, not just agree it's not there.
Because the belief runs so deep.
If you still suffer, then you still believe you are a person. If you are conscious awareness, what problem would you have?
How can pure limitless awareness have goals in life?
Insight into this is to see without any doubt you are this, if you believe only, it's not enough. Suffering will continue.
I've only had experiences of seeing, the insight hadn't developed yet. I still get sucked into the stories.
You have to establish your identity.
A lot if people refer ego to only negative thoughts and emotions, but miss that ego is also the one that has positive thoughts.
Conscious awareness does not use ego as a tool. Awareness doesn't use anything. It just is. Either you are it or it is aware of you.
That's the subtlety.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_mind
It would perhaps be useful to think in terms of a gem. We are people, that is we egoic, imperfect people. Which is everyone incidentally, we are the flaws in the diamond. That and the facets meeting the light create sparkle ...
It is the light that is perfect, without causation, boundless light. Light upon light. The light in this sense is constant and us as individual gems cascade and glitter through life ...
... and now back to misunderstanding Buddhism and meditation ...
[ edit: should have left the bad spelling, see next post - but whatever @federica has may be catching ...
]
Beautifully written, we are all perfectly imperfect right. Beauty in chaos. All a unique expression.
I'm more like a babbling baboon.
We need to realise the diamond that is in our pockets.
Cheers mate
My experience tells me otherwise. Pretending it doesn't exist is illogical from this view.
No, it's because subjectivity is evolutionary and all just a part of the process of awareness. There is no reason to cling to it but no reason to show aversion either.
These are just growing pains in my honest opinion.
Who said anything about a problem? Sure, we suffer but I see healing on the rise.
Through the subjective experience. Self awareness was a critical step for us and now we are starting to see the next step is realizing that distinguishing is just a means to an end.
We are natural born explorers.
I just do the same as I would if I were watching a good movie and suspend my disbelief. Do you know what I mean? I know I am not the main character but I can still enjoy their story.
Nothing wrong with playing the part and really, without it, we would never get to experience a sunrise from so many different viewpoints.
Agreed.
How could you know this? Do you suppose you are the only one on forum that has had these experiences?
Honest question, no offense intended.
I would imagine that unconscious awareness or universal awareness may not use ego as a tool intentionally but it works out that way. Conscious awareness would be sentient and would use ego as a tool once it is seen useful to do so.
@ourself
I don't know of I'm the only one who has had these experiences here. Who is to say. I'm only putting across what I've felt and invite others to share.
I think this is the point we are really disagreeing on. I think it's subtle but it is the main difference.
Ego doesn't exist, it's a concept. All you will ever find is thoughts. Self referring thoughts but still thoughts.
Conscious awareness does not use thoughts, it is the pure observer. It has no likes or intentions. Thoughts arise like the wind blows, and consciousness is aware. It doesn't use sounds, or use thoughts it is simply here.
The thoughts and intentions may take on a new flavour once the illusion is seen through fully but there is still one doing it. Not even consciousness.
"I will use my ego" is just a thought (ego)
....and so are 'you'.... and your 'words' (Some food for thought perhaps @Earthninja )
Definitely. No question about that. Just some people don't like hearing this, hence all the resistance. The ego wants enlightenment. Yet some get burnt in the search. Those are the liberated ones
@Earthninja;
I understand you want to be right here but don't you think it's a little foolish to stake a claim to knowledge you admit to not experiencing?
How can you be so sure what enlightenment entails when you yourself have yet to be enlightened?
"I will use my ego" is just a thought but using it is action.
I don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.
Ive already explained this previously, once you see there is no self, other than a concept, like Batman. You can't unsee that. It's not about being right, I don't mind being wrong at all. This is the most important topic for me, it's the fundamental of who we are. We aren't who we think we are. Literally.
I may not be enlightened, but I know without a doubt what I'm not.
I have no idea what enlightenment entails. I'm not even talking about what that is. I'm talking about who we take ourselves to be.
If you feel like you are subjective, you will feel separation. And this hurts.
No amount of intellectual conclusion will help.
It's hard for me to grasp because I know it's not true.
@Earthninja sez: "There is no you. It just is. **mind blows*** hahaha"
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Yes, I believe it has (mind blown).
A mind that enters seclusion is perfect for developing the enlightenment factors, that way, the secluded mind is non attached, it is not clinging. And before the factors of jhana one has to be secluded from sensual pleasures and secluded from unwholesome states at the start, I would say.
Probably true, but a mind that is not prepared for, or trained for seclusion, will struggle to benefit from it.
Seclusion will not create unattachment in an unprepared mind, but probably increase it.
Try it!
Certainly sounds that way right XD.
Metta
Well, that's why Buddha warned against forming a conclusion about these things. (conjecturable)
Being subjective doesn't hurt just for being subjective. I am being subjective right now and I know I am not really separate. Pain does come with the experience but so does joy so I don't mind the pain as much.
So I know that you can only speak for yourself when you say what causes pain and what is untrue.
Using a tool and thinking about using a tool is not the same thing. If you are going to throw logic out the window and rely solely on intuition, I wish you the best but the two really do go better together.
If this matter is of the utmost importance I would suggest letting it go for a while. It isn't going anywhere.
As a hobby, fine but as an obsession it will probably cause you more pain than it alleviates.
Majjhima Nikaya 36
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn36
Samyutta Nikaya 56.11
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn56.11
@ourself if you know more than intellectually you wouldn't have any more suffering. It would be as transient impersonal experience. Only you can answer this truthfully.
Thanks for the advice, I know you mean well. I am also on other forums and have guidance regarding this. They are far more realised than me. I just felt to share here.
If you see who you take yourself to be is false, trying to understand who you are becomes important. At least here. The Buddha left his family to understand life. Id say he didn't treat it as a hobby.
It's not serious but my interest is sincere. Any other search is a movement away. Who am I is the only real question worth asking.
@Earthninja;
I disagree.
It doesn't matter who we are.
It matters what we do.
If it matters to you who you are then somewhere deep inside you know you are here. If you truly were not here, why would it matter who you are?
You caught a glimpse of the ultimate... Why not just leave it at that until the novelty wears off?
Please understand that Buddha did not leave his family. Sidhartha left his family. When Buddha woke up he headed back to them first.
@Earthninja said " I am also on other forums and have guidance regarding this. They are far more realised than me. I just felt to share here."
=====
Yes, you may believe they're more realized than you, but I myself would follow the Buddha's advice / warning to reserve final judgment on x, y or z, until you have it sorted out FOR YOUR OWN SELF. To me, it sounds like they're leading you around by the nose. Muuu!
Ok well I disagree with this. If you don't know who you are then you are ignorant. And our actions will be born from this place. Hence all the suffering.
I guess we are at an en passé.
Metta
I think it does matter who we think we are, the assumptions we make.
Isn't making the assumptions something we do?
@Earthninja;
There is no self but there is a "who"?
I hate to break it to you but if there is no self, there can hardly be a who.
You're still looking for a self but calling it by another label.
If you are looking for a permanent place to hang your hat you won't find it within any identity even if that identity is no-self.
I think we have exhausted our conversation to death mate, we are going in circles now.
All the best and hope you are well wherever you are!
It is, I suppose it's about questioning whether our assumptions are in fact correct.
I can agree there.
Although trying to find out who we are is to be subjective.
I don't think that can really be argued.
Right back at you, @Earthninja.
I'm just having fun. A quest is just a mission if we can't have fun with it.
Even if you do come to find you do not exist, take care of yourself, whoever you are and whatever that could possibly mean.
Well I'm just glad that no body got hurt in the debate
@Earthninja & @ourself look after your 'selves'
And you, with all your sayings
I still remember when I started here I didn't know what "metta Shoshin" meant.
Loving kindness to you emptiness
I don't feel "Buddhist meditation" is about suppressing thoughts. That seems like a fool's task anyhow. I believe it's more about labeling and watching them phase out than anything. This article seems more like an attempt to distract people away from Buddhism who have an interest in meditation.
Perhaps Buddhism is just an attempt to distract meditation ...
Those wicked French-sounding philosophers are always evangelising! Sartre was another one, he followed the Buddha round and tried to persuade his followers that "Hell is other people". Not something an English gentleman would do.
I learned that meditation is the methods of the past according to Shakyamuni Buddha's prediction. Its in the scripture. It has been already over a thousand years since the latter days of the Law. Meditation was the 2nd 500years' practice, which is the practice of the correct Law age.(Right Dharma age or Former day of the Law )
I thought to make a comment here, but, discretion won the day. I'll let it go...too fine a line between brilliance and plain stupidity. Fascinating thread though.