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Second noble truth and physical suffering
AjeevakDharmana
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I came across a video and was not sure if physical suffering is covered under 2nd noble truth as it can not be caused by desire craving and ignorance and its cessation is not possible by following Noble eightfold path ....
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What is the Noble Truth of Suffering? Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering: in short the five categories affected by clinging are suffering.
Aging and sickness sounds very physical to me. These things are tied up to the body and the reason they cause suffering is because we feel that the body is ours. When things go wrong, we feel that they are happening to us personally. When they happen to someone else, we don't tend to suffer.
Pain is unavoidable but suffering is not.
It's definitely covered, I think, especially in places like SN 36.6. In essence, one experiences pain (and pleasure) by virtue of having a body; but those feelings aren't necessarily experienced as dukkha. With the cessation of craving, they're not longer 'difficult to bear' (one commentarial translation of dukkha).
Physical pain is made worse when added psychological suffering comes in.
That's why some people can take a tattoo and even fall asleep and others turn pale just at the sight of the needles. The pain is the same burning sensation but psycological addition creates the suffering.
It's only because we truly believe this body is "mine" that we suffer. That there is someone in this body that experiences the pain, death, birth etc.
Grief, pain, tears, all these are parts of life. But that damn voice in the head makes it worse. Free yourself from that voice which we believe is us. Suffering goes away.
The two participants of this video have set up an ignorant straw man between them ...
@Jason describes the situation well.
This is what the truth of dukkha refers to
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha
Incidentally the seperate issue of overcoming pain, through for example tumo, is studied and verified.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof
Similar studies exist for hypnosis and other mind effecting physiology techniques
http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/hypnosis-meditation-and-relaxation-for-pain-treatment
More about Stefan Molyneux
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux
Hope that is helpful
I don't think so. There are different interpretations of dukkha, with different views in different traditions. I've debated this point from both sides and it's not a straightforward question.
I still find the Arrow Sutta somewhat ambiguous. Bodily pain is included in descriptions of dukkha, and bodily pain is the first arrow, which remains.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/
I think this is over-simplistic because the physical experience of bodily pain is not dependent on self-view. The second arrow is avoidable but the first arrow ( bodily pain ) is not, and descriptions of dukkha include the first arrow too. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html
Note that Nibbana is usually described as the cessation of craving, aversion and ignorance, and not as the cessation of dukkha.
Yes, many people have difficulties with this. I used to, as well, but I rarely obsess over figuring out the answers to such topics, anymore. My understanding, though, is that pain isn't experienced mentally after awakening the same way it is now. The first noble truth states that, in short, the five clinging-aggregate are dukkha, which I take to mean that it's the clinging in reference to the aggregates that's dukkha, not the aggregates themselves.
So while both mental and physical pain in his description of dukkha, my understanding is that sickness and physical pain aren't necessarily experienced as dukkha by an arahant, both because of the knowledge and lack of attachment in regard to these phenomena. Their relationship to the body and the experience of unpleasant bodily feelings are different.
And of course, it also refers to the end of the cycle of birth and death, meaning that the conditions for physical suffering will no longer arise.
I enjoyed what Stefan Molyneux had to say, so decided to watch the original youtube video mentioned, which is over an hour.
Some good critical points made about the Dalai Lama, which may be new to those used to vajrayana orthodoxy Tibetan gangam style ...
... And now back to Dukkha for those so inclined ...
All suffering occurs in the mind. It's a mental construct/interpretation of physical pain/discomfort. It is craving of sensual pleasure/avoidance of physical discomfort and ignorance of how things truly are.
I disagree or maybe we are just misunderstanding each other. The suffering that is mental can cease. Physical sensations(pain) only end upon death.
What is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering? It is the remainderless fading and cessation of that same craving; the rejecting, relinquishing, leaving and renouncing of it. But whereon is this craving abandoned and made to cease? Wherever there is what seems lovable and gratifying, thereon it is abandoned and made to cease.
There is this Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.
This Noble Truth must be penetrated to by realising the Cessation of Suffering....
This Noble Truth has been penetrated to by realising the Cessation of Suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.
[Samyutta Nikaya LVI, 11]
The cessation of dukkha is possible for the arahant because this is how he views the aggregates.
"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"
"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."
"In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit."
Na Tumhaka Sutta: Not Yours
And physical pain is an aspect of dukkha. That's my point.
I disagree. Bodily pain is a distinct physiological phenomenon, not just something in the mind.
Have you reached this point?
For sure mental and physical pain are different, but does pain exist when the mind is not present.
Like under anesthesia.
I agree, pain is a distinct physiological phenomenon separate from the mind. Therefore with that logic, what happens in the mind is seperate from the physiological phenomenon.
Just because I'm cold doesn't mean I necessarily have to suffer. I might even learn to enjoy it even though I might still be experiencing that cold sensation. Like the polar bear swimming clubs they have where they swim in the ice cold water. Same with pain, except that with pain it is a more extreme example.
@ourself it happened once, It was clearly seen that the thoughts are mechanical. So is personal volition. It lasted about 10 seconds and then identity came back. Identity is so strong and ingrained in us
It's happened to me a few times but I don't mind having to come back to center.
We only have 80 years or so with luck so why negate it? We don't have to leave our senses in order to transform suffering.
It's aversion in disguise.
@ourself there is no centre, there never was one. If it did happen to you, a few times you would clearly see that.
And you wouldn't be saying I don't mind it coming back to centre. Why do you leave your senses?
I don't think we are talking about the same thing.
Please. Don't pretend you know any more about this than you do, ok?
2 months ago you were asking a guide to help you see this stuff and now you are an expert. Come on now, who are you trying to kid here?
You aren't making any sense with this question. If you are not an individual then you have no senses. Again, this is simple stuff.
No, I doubt we are. I am talking about experience. You seem to be still hanging onto the experience of others.
As the Arrow Sutta explains there is bodily pain ( the first arrow ) then there is the mental anguish we add to it ( the second arrow ).
@ourself ok bud, you seem really sure of yourself and what my experience is.
I just have a good memory.
However, that you can't see that I could say the same to you should tell you something.
@ourself I said our experience was different, I know this by the way you were talking about it. Nothing more.
Then you get all personal and judgemental.
All the best mate.
In the primary wheel teachings of vipassana, pain is accepted as a means of practice:
http://buddhanet.net/imol/retreat/retreat06.htm
Those theravadins sure know how to party ...
Being indifferent, unaffected by physical pain is advanced stuff for chronic pain. I can't do it. Examining the nature of physical sensations/discomfort is something I have been working a lot with lately. It is kind of a dharma hobby ...
Soon I will ready for S&M Hinayana raves ...
That is your individual interpretation but it is biased as heck. (@Earthninja said "If it did happen a few times to you then you wouldn't blah, blah, blah")
That can also be transcended with equanimity.
Anyways, we are very off topic.
Physical pain doesn't stop being felt with the cessation of mental anguish I don't think.
It could maybe be ignored but it has a physiological purpose.
Clearly it doesn't. Neither does disease, ageing and death, we are stuck with these experiences.
Pain and suffering.
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.