Advice for a broken heart
Bunks
Australia Veteran
A couple my wife and I are good friends with are getting a divorce after 12 years of marriage.
The wife has stated that she has no respect for him and doesn't love him anymore. In her defense, he has shown no effort to improve himself over the years or make any effort to stay in touch with friends, family etc. He would rather just sit at home on the couch.
He's a nice guy and a good father but he has little ambition and has no real friends. He also has no relationship with his own family (mother and siblings).
She sent me a text the other day stating "I can't continue to be the only thing in his life that gives him security and a reason for living. He is too attached to me. It's such a burden".
Quite frankly, I am a bit worried about him as he is pretty devastated. I'm not sure how I can help him though? I've invited him out but have had no response.
He is quite a private person but I think he needs someone to talk to. I am happy to be that person. I don't know if he has anyone else!
Any advice on how to approach this is welcome.
Thanks.......
Comments
She's leaving because she's the only thing in his life that gives him security and a reason for living? Isn't that a better reason to stay than it is to leave?
Good question.
@Bunks, sorry to hear about your friends. Do you know how long she's been dissatisfied with her H? What about counseling for them? Seems better than throwing it all away, but if he's in the kind of serious rut you say she says he is, then it could be like pulling teeth to get him to go.
My advise would be to see what your own meditation suggests.
Truly skillful means to any situation only manifest to the degree that we are not subject to our own blinding conditioned impulses around that situation.
Here, sufferings cause has the best chance of being addressed in some way.
Elsewhere, suffering cause is just as likely to keep playing with itself.
Maybe he has a good reason to avoid his family - maybe he's been holding in stuff that he can't let out - for men (I know this is generally speaking), it's easier to socialize to the degree they do and having been abused by their family, and he's found the only comfort he may ever have known with his immediate family (wife/kids). He might find it easier to go to a counselor about that; I wonder if you have any inkling about that or not. And yeah, the meditation would most likely help guide you.
Perhaps you could make the invitation again? He might not be ready to talk now, but maybe you could leave it open, like if he needs to talk at some point in the future you'll be there to listen?
I thought at first it might have been depression, but if this is a general tendency of his, then it's not depression.
And -
Absolutely not.
A person's happiness, contentment, and serenity should not be dependent upon the presence and attention of someone else.
That, as his wife is pointing out, is too much of a burden.
Why should the onus be on her, to make him feel contented?
He's 'pretty devastated'..?
Is he devastated enough to agree to counselling and to change his ways?
Would he be doing that for the right reasons (that is, because he sees it's an error on his part, and needs remedy for his own well-being and good, rather than activating any change in order to use it as a tool to keep her in the marriage)...?
Is it 'too little too late'?
I would say it is.
because his wife has made the concerted effort for some time now to maintain a relationship and he has done nothing to help build and maintain that from his side.
She's now thrown in the towel.
Anything he now tries to do to pull this back on track, will be futile.
He should have got his act together when the dysfunction in the relationship was first made evident.
But he didn't.
If you guys could only know how many times this issue came up in Relationships Counselling, you'd be astounded.....
@Bunks, if he's been indolent and non-active in his relationship up to now, it's (sadly) unlikely that he will open up and opt to find a shoulder-buddy to lean on.
I'm sorry, but the last thing you need to do, is to 'help'.
Remember she sent you texts and messages regarding her actions.
If you now reach out and offer to help HIM - you will be seen as meddling and taking sides, by her, and maybe cause more trouble than help.
I suggest you take a step back - and let them get on with it.
He's a grown man, committed to having a family, and presumably worked, or works.
This is their issue to deal with.
All you can do, is to listen, and be there with 'tea and sympathy'.
But in my experience, the more you offer to help, the greater the chance of 'tears before bed time'....
@Steve_B Not necessarily no. While as social beings we are meant (on differing levels) to support each other and help each other out, one person cannot rely entirely on someone else forever and ever. In a relationship, sure, that happens sometimes. Sometimes, you have to carry the other for a while. But then eventually things balance out again. Then maybe next time they carry you. If there is never balance, and if there is never a chance for that responsibility to change hands, it really is a burden to the person shouldering all of that. Someone else cannot be the only reason for a person staying alive. That isn't what life is about. Dependence on that level isn't healthy for anyone. When I left my ex, it was the hardest thing I ever did. I hadn't loved him in a long time, so that part was no longer difficult. What was hard was knowing that his life was going to fall apart because for the past 12 years or so, I had been holding it together for him. But it most certainly was not a reason to put myself and our children through what was going on in our lives just because he was dependent on us. As an adult he had other choices to make and those choices weren't my responsibility. They couldn't be.
@Bunks I agree with who said to let meditation be your guide. Have a good session before you even extend your offer again. Sometimes saying something just right has the impact needed, and I often find that the right words come right after meditation thanks to a clear mind that isn't in the process of grinding gears to figure out what to say. I'm sorry your friends are hurting. You could also suggest counseling for your friend, maybe you could offer to take him (if that's possible). Right now, he has a choice. This event is a catalyst for him, and he still has the choice to make it a wonderful thing, or a horrible thing. It might be too late for his marriage, but it isn't too late for him to make sure his children are ok in this process. It isn't too late for him to develop new friendships that are more compatible with the life he wants. He has choices that will take him many directions and probably needs some direction in that. Not saying you are the guy to provide it but perhaps you can help him find it.
Sorry to double up my posts, but the other is long enough so I didn't want to edit it and make it worse, LOL.
To echo what fed said, be cautious about how you choose to get involved since you and your wife are friends with both. To be honest with you, I've never seen a divorce result in all 4 people being able to maintain all the friend ships. The friends inevitably end up splitting as friends of either the husband or wife, especially where so much hurt is involved and it is not a divorce that both sides want. It is very hard to maintain friendships with both if nothing else because the divorced couple don't want reminders of their married life by staying mutual friends.
Because it hasn't been figured out how things will fall with the 4 of you yet, just be a little careful. Make sure you don't text with the wife and let things she said slip to the husband. You need (IMO) to keep both of their confidences, which can be really hard. But if they wanted to tell each other what they are telling you, they have that choice and if they choose not to, that is their reason. It is hard to be in the middle. It's even harder when you wish that you could make one of them understand the other. You can't. My husband and I are good friends with a couple. They aren't divorcing but they have big fights once in a while that stem from her having been in an abusive relationship before, so she overreacts to what would be a normal argument. When they fight, the wife clams up and pretends nothing is wrong, won't even tell me what is wrong even though it's clear I already know. And the husband opens up in a flood of feelings and texts me all day long. Sometimes I wish I could take what he tells me, and help her understand him better. But I can't. And I refuse to break his confidence. Or hers. It's hard! On the one hand, I know it's important to maintain the confidence that each of them has in talking to me about it at all. But at the same time it feels like secret keeping to not tell them both that I am talking to them both. It's just tricky. So be careful how much you get involved. Offer support and a hot beverage (lol, sorry, love Big Bang Theory) but protect yourself, too. Because when one person has a divorce sprung on them that they don't want, things can get really ugly and you don't want to be drug into that.
@karasti seems to have the clearest picture of the true situation. It's almost inevitable that if both of them are your friends, they will end up each trying to get you to pick sides. And even if they don't, you'll have an opinion of who to blame and that will make interactions painful.
And you can easily get sucked into keeping secrets and confidences and even worse, betraying a confidence.
My own advice? Provide an ear to listen to them when possible, but beyond telling both of them that you're sorry it's not working out, also let them know you care for both and can't take sides. And be prepared to let them go their way, or at least one of them. As was said, friends rarely are able to remain friends after a breakup.
Thanks everyone - particularly @karasti and @federica.
They are actually now starting to go to marriage counselling but I get the vibe that she isn't particularly invested in it. Although she asked him to attend my wife told me that she pretty much was secretly hoping he'd say no (again!) so she could use that as the reason to end it. I think she's just going through the motions.
Just for some context on the previous paragraph, she has asked him to go to counselling a number of times in the past with her and by himself (he grew up in a very dysfunctional family) but he has always refused.
He briefly opened up to me on the weekend and said that she won't allow any physical contact between them and that she has a lot of anger in her.
She also told my wife that she doesn't think she ever loved him!
It doesn't bode well.
They have three beautiful young kids who will be devastated.
It's just a sad situation.
I think I'll heed the advice above and sit back a bit rather than trying to get too involved.
Thanks again!
I might ask him why he does not pursue many relations outside of his wife? Is it anxiety? Lethargy?
I've invited him out but have had no response.
With respect, and fully aware of how insensitive this may sound...
Why do you feel the need to do more than you have?
I realize nobody can share someone else's life story, but there seems like there's one or two missing pieces - why seemingly simple questions like this are going unanswered - makes it appear like all the people in this story don't know one another very well. It's kind of an Ann Landers or Dear Abby thing.
Nothing's over till it's over - or is it already good n dead? @Bunks?
Just because I am concerned he has no-one (and I mean no-one!) else to talk to.
I don't know to what extent your male friend is avoiding social life. I do know that I don't have any close friends other than my wife (she's the best friend I've ever had - the way I think it should be), and that I'm very introverted. I'll spend time with my family or my wife's family, but I don't like to spend too much time with any of them. So, we go to family gatherings if we're invited, and occasionally we'll have them over to our place. But I can't take too much more than, say, one or two visits a week. I haven't made much effort to maintain relationships with any friends from my youth, or work colleagues since we've been married. I'd rather spend time with my wife. She doesn't mind, she's the same way.
If he's not stopping her from pursuing her own friendships and family relations, I don't see that she has much to complain about. I'm assuming (maybe erroneously) that she knew he was a quiet, reserved person when she married him, why should she expect him to change?
Sad that she repays trust and vulnerability with anger and rejection. Kinder, less selfish choices are open to her, though she appears either unaware or uninterested.
@Steve_B and @Walker - I must say I tend to agree with you. My wife and I are a little disappointed in the way this has played out.
I just don't think they're suited for each other. She's outgoing, social and bubbly but he would be happy to sit home in front of the TV and do nothing.
@Bunks it sounds like both you and your wife are good trusted friend of the couple...My advice..., is to just let them know that you are there for both of them...No pressure...Just be there as a listening ear if they feel the need to talk, 'airing out the contents of their mental closets',...
Keep in mind "Hurt People Hurt People" and both no doubt are (in their own way) feeling quite hurt and hard done by at the moment...
~Sigh~
Ok, guys, I hate to play Devil's advocate here, but nothing is ever as clear-cut as it seems.
First of all, you have made assumptions and come to those conclusions, purely and simply based on the brief account you've read on this page.
Maybe this is what he's changed INTO from having been someone more outgoing and extrovert? Wives like to do things with their husbands. When husbands become non-committal and distant, a woman seeks outside interests of their own.
This comment is so judgemental I'm honestly quite surprised.
What kinder, less selfish choices do you think she should opt for, that she hasn't already tried to implement? She's tried different tactics, she's approached him several times to suggest counselling, are you honestly suggesting she continue doing this, quite happily, until her toes curl up?
Has it not occurred to you that his behaviour has been selfish and disinterested?
I think she has been far more 'aware' of this, for a long time. HE is the one who has had his head buried in the sand....
People change.
We know this (I don't know why that hasn't occurred to you). Some people evolve well together, others, don't. And judging by divorce figures, an awful lot of people, don't.
I would suspect that he is not the man she married.
Something, once upon a time, was wonderful.
But a lifetime of bringing children up can do weird things to a relationship. It creates isolation and diversity, to such an extent that people start running on different rails.
Bunks already stated she had suggested counselling before and he had always refused.
Which would imply that she already knew there was a problem, and suggested addressing it.
he turned that opportunity down.
He has to take responsibility for that.
Because in my experience, this is something very common: The woman as the standard, usual scenario normally plays out, finds that three-quarters of her time is taken up with paying attention to the children. The father plays a quasi-central, or at times, peripheral role.
I mean, let's re-read @Bunks' post again, shall we?
Yes, this is right. She is. She is at least making one last-ditch effort, but given his reluctance to co-operate, it's hardly surprising she's had enough....
As I said earlier, the woman in a relationship of this kind tries, and tries, and tries again, to try to steer what she sees as a sad situation, towards some kind of remedy. And persistently, consistently and perpetually comes up against a brick wall. I can't begin to tell you how demoralising it is for a woman to see a man taking no notice or interest in her, when she's not waving, but drowning.... And if he grew up in a highly dysfunctional family, you'd think he would want to avoid repeating the dysfunction, eagerly, wouldn't you?
Is he surprised? Genuinely, one might ask - is he really, really surprised? Anger removes any desire to connect sexually. She's angry with him, because he has spent their married life, refusing to step up to the plate. Being lethargic, non-committal and acting like a couch-potato, when you have repeatedly been approached about fixing what doesn't work, is hardly contributing to the well-being of a marriage.
How sexually attractive IS a couch-potato? Honestly?
That bit I would venture to suggest, is not true. I'm sure, initially the love was there. But if he became settled, complacent, and began taking his cushy satisfying life for granted, then yes, it's amazing what a 'passion-killer' that can be.
I have seen this happen. I have even heard a man say to his wife, in counselling "She's not a sexy person any more, she should be over that, I mean, she's a mum now, why does sex matter to her? Why does she need it?"
You can have no idea how soul-crushing it is, to hear the man you love, relegate you to a 'sexless' role.
Did he take her on 'date nights'? How was their sex life BEFORE all this hit the wall?
What effort did he make to remain alluring and sexy, for her?
Right. Not unless he does the complete 180, and makes a disytinct effort to meet her half way and work on this with her, for the sake of their marriage.But the effort - from both sides, has to be concerted, and continuous. Not temporary, once things are fixed, then going back to habitual ways. (Seen that, too....)
How old are the children?
People always say things about the kids, but I've met some children from divorced parents who were actually totally relieved that at least something had been done to remedy the dysfunction....
They will be disrupted by this, but it may not damage them as much as remaining in the situation might.
It should not be reason to leave him. But he might act too sticky or depended on her. This may be the reason that she is feeling irritating about him.
If she wants to leave him, it would imply that this is not a sudden decision. This has been festering for some time.
To her, this is an absolutely justified reason for leaving him.
@Bunks Also try to remember that what might make perfect sense to you as a manner of dealing with this may not be at all how he will deal with it. A lot of the time we take our perspective and think "Ok, what would I need? And how can I provide it to this friend?" But maybe if his nature is to be on his own, then that is how he will deal with it, too. Perhaps your thought that he must clearly need a friend to talk to about the whole mess isn't really what he needs. Sometimes, we interject ourselves into the problems of others meaning well, and with a good heart, but it might not be at all what the person needs.
Unrelated, but just an example. When my grandma died a few weeks ago, my mom would call me sometimes multiple times a day asking me how my grieving was going, asking how I was, asking me to go to coffee to talk and so on. Which wasn't at all what I needed, her calling to ask how she could help was actually much more stressful. I process things like that on my own. I talk about things as I feel a need to, but while I am an emotional person, I am not a person who talks much about it. The insistence our culture tends to have that we MUST talk about our feelings isn't always true. It really just depends on the person. My mom has a huge need to talk about her feelings so she assumes everyone else does, too.
What makes the most sense to us doesn't always make the most sense to someone else. Sometimes it's just good to open the door and let it be known it's open rather an trying to pull them through it.
I agree with @karasti, that some people simply don't need to let it all hang out, emotionally. Decades ago I was in a women's support group that I joined after a bad romantic break-up. After telling my story, I was content to listen and comment on others'...eventually I was criticized for not delving deeper and (perhaps) coming to tears, as the others did, on a regular basis. They were right, I didn't belong there anymore. --I wonder, though, if @Bunks' friends would benefit from that kind of support. It's funny the kind of rapport that can develop with strangers, when your heart is broken.
I understand that. I think it was very kind of you to offer. Now I realize that I am in danger of projecting my own stuff into any response or belief on how to handle this, so I'll just share my stuff.
Like Walker, my wife is my best friend. I endure the company of others. I would be reluctant to respond to your offer at all because my hands are already full with my world crumbling around me and I've found that when someone sincerely offers me what would be help for them and I say 'no', they are very reluctant to let it go at that.
During the best of times, sitting down and chatting with someone who is not my wife is most peoples equivalent of sitting down to a fun filled evening of differential equations. Now I've got to talk you out of it because you think differential equations is a pretty nifty solution to emotional distress. Because you (generic you) are so convinced of this, I've found that my boundaries are not being respected - for my own good of course, so I've got to think up a reason that you'll accept. It's a lot of pressure when I'm already under more than I know how to handle. So I'll typically just ignore the request.
Yes, and it can make a lot of difference knowing that somebody is there, even if you choose not to confide in them. People do deal with things in different ways.
I think we all have a different approach, for example, if it were happening to someone I cared about, I'd try to help someone in the same way I'd want help...without thinking of how they would want (or not want) assistance. And now that I've thought about it, I hope I can remember that.
Hi all
Just thought I'd let you know I've decided to step back from the situation and let them come to me if they want to. I think it's for the best.
Thanks again for your input (as always)!
Sounds good.
If they both come to you, it's best to let each one know. But keep confidences.
"I can't tell you what s/he said to me, I promised I would keep it confidential, and I would promise you the same....; I really suggest you try to speak to him/her yourself. You guys need to communicate, and maybe counselling is what you really both need right now."
(Apply gender as appropriate).