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Realisation
lobster
Crusty Veteran
On the path, which does still exist and work for those wondering, realisation is the goal. You might have read that.
What is it like? Many descriptions exist that allude to awakening and these are reinforced by personal experience. Early on when joining this forum I asked who was enlightened. A couple of people affirmed without any fuss they were awake. Can not even remember who. It did not seem of any consequence to others as they had no questions either. Must have been distracted by dukkha ...
Then we have the 'test methodology':
Anyone like to announce their realisation?
1
Comments
I'm definitely undoubtably totally, ignorant and deluded.
I will endeavour to let you guys know if I wake up totally. Maybe I won't. But id like to think sharing is a good thing.
Thanks @lobster good post.
Ive had a few insights but something wacks me on the head **this isn't it! Keep going dumbass!***
I just got out of bed, therefore I must be awake.
Unless your a butterfly dreaming you are a person -Chuang Tzu
Butterflies don't dream, their eyes are always open.
@lobster
This is really an un-measureable thing. One can be awake to certain things, but not others. One is constantly being awoken to new realizations. It is not an on-off / all-or-nothing proposition. If, however, you mean -fully- awake, then I cannot answer. If one has any doubt, one is probably not completely awakened. I am not even sure I would recognize one who is fully awake, for what they are. I would also caution against basing your own condition against those of others, as that is ego-centric. Rather, focus on your own path and destination.
WHICH ONE?
Random selection:
That you can not tell true intelligence from a chart and and everyone really is precious.*
They daydream
"What is it like ?"
It's Nothing Special
(According to Shunryu Suzuki )
In that case I shall teach mindfulness to butterflies.
That would be like teaching grandmother to suck eggs
Surely someone is fully realised on this forum?
"I" fully realise you @Earthninja , if that's any consolation
Perhaps....
The sooner one stops trying to shoehorn full realization into the limited identity constructs of self and other, the sooner that one can stop hindering all realizations.
You can read about the Boddhisattva Bhumis (levels) in the Jewel Ornament of Liberation by Gampopa. The text includes the entire Buddhist path. It is rather concise though maybe need to further search out for more thorough explanations elsewhere.
I shall make mindful egg-sucking an exercise on my Money-based Stress Reduction workshops (MBSR ).
Ha! Would knowing I was enlightened help you in any way? Then sure, I'm enlightened. But don't tell anyone else. It'll be our secret.
Oh, because I'm enlightened, you expect words of wisdom from me now? How about this: Enlightenment is nothing special. In fact, you're enlightened too -- you just don't want to admit it to yourself because that would mean you don't have an excuse for indulging in your selfish desires.
So, anyone want to ask the Enlightened Dog a question? I have a bag full of answers to give out. I don't need them anymore, but it seems a shame to throw them out. They're such pretty answers.
Yay!!! It's just nice to know. I don't have any questions for mr dog.
I'm stoked
No, wrong way round, we have selfish desires because we're not enlightened.
The Enlightened Dog says: Sorry, that's not a question. Only questions get answers.
One woof or two?
Enlightened Dog says: Not one woof, not two woofs. Not one mind, not two minds.
How can there be two minds, enlightened and the unenlightened, when it is the same person looking through your eyes from cradle to grave? Does that mean there is one mind only? Yet how can there be only one mind, if Buddha achieved enlightenment? If there is only one mind, then he didn't achieve anything!
Not one, not two. What, then? The dog goes "woof!" but what does that mean?
If you have to ask, you're barking up the wrong tree.
But not many dogs climb trees.
They do however raise a leg... Oh hang on....
Sorry.
"family show" an' all that.
One mind, different contents. I hope that answers your question, grasshopper.
"There is no such thing as a master of zen, and there never will be"~ Roshi Philip Kapleau
Ha!
I'm not talking about zen. I'm taking about a permanent shift in perception
Zen, Ch'an, Mahamudra, Tao and Dzogchen aren't simply names used to refer to systems of practice. The terms refer to the Original state or Buddha nature.
As in, "He has realized Ch'an." or "she has attained Mahamudra."
Zen, Ch'an, Mahamudra, Tao and Dzogchen is our inherent nature. No one can be master of that. If you think yourself to be a person who is master then you haven't realized.
You speak as if enlightenment were somehow leaving one mind and entering another or being unrelated to ordinary or un-enlightened. It is one mind. The difference is in the awakening. Buddha, in achieving enlightenment changed from Buddha latent (potential) or ordinary human being to Buddha manifest. In other words, he awoke from the condition of ordinary human being to the condition ( some say 'world') of Buddha.
Or, as @SpinyNorman put it, 'One mind different contents.'
That does seem to be what is involved, seeing things in a quite different way. Some kind of transformation.
I had many realizations along the path, but I don't think I should talk about them here (two notebooks of text). Anyway, there is one which revealed reality as it is, without conceptual areola.
Does this count as announcement?
If we look at some of the metaphors and descriptions:
Like a lotus blooming or an awakening
'Perceptual' transformation
Imagine you have been in a massive pitch dark room for years. One day a flashlight appears and you begin searching, and eventually you come across a mirror and see your face in it. Even though you haven’t seen your face for many years, it’s instantly recognizable. You know that’s “you”.
You have been in a coma for many decades, only to finally wake up one day and see your parents. Even though their appearance has changed, you instantly know they are your parents.
You were born blind, and have never seen what the world looks like.
You receive surgery that gives you vision and you can finally see the world around you.
http://www.alanpeto.com/buddhism/understanding-enlightenment/
If you feel realisation is not the goal of Buddhism then keep hitting the snooze button ...
Otherwise I would recommend a good cushion, dedicated practice and mindfulness.
Doesn't this notion of seeing your "original face" or "true self" fly in the face of anatta and sunyata?
Who is it that has had a change in perception?
Ah, @Lionduck and @SpinyNorman then you are of the one mind camp. So the mind is nothing but an empty bowl, and we fill and empty it like cooks serving stew? So if the mind is the bowl, who is it empties the bowl?
There is nothing special about Buddha's mind after awakening? It was the same mind he had before? Then all this talk of Enlightenment sounds like a lot of fuss about nothing. If it is a matter of just realizing the truth of the world, then why aren't you a Buddha also?
It sounds like you're playing around with the idea that the mind is inherently empty. Is this correct?
I'm not saying I agree or disagree. Anyone who knows me from my posts in the past can imagine the grin on my face. Just seeing if I can get a clarification.
Yes.
These are not perfect descriptions. The Vedanta and mystic enlightenment descriptions often stop at I AM A YAM type realisations.
In other words they are tied to an object of being eg:
etc.
However as realisation deepens an emptying occurs, then we have:
etc.
A spiritual being may be part being and increasingly 'non-being'.
From the suttas it looks like a replacement job, skillfull mental states gradually substituted for unskillfull ones. That makes sense to me from experience too.
Pretending we are already enlightened doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Who is our original self?
Hee. But a transformed mind is not the same mind. A butterfly is not a caterpillar. So it's not one mind. But the butterfly is the caterpillar, transformed. Where did the caterpillar go to? You can only point to the butterfly and say, there it is! So we also can't say they are two separate things. The mind is not two, either.
Enlightened Dog says: Not one, not two. Woof!
The brain...
Hey @Cinorjer just out of plain curiosity,
How do you perceive "the world" now?
Does any of that stuff matter provided there is a transformation?
The snark in me wants to say, "With my eyes."
I have no great wisdom to present that hasn't been spoken much better by wiser people than me. I look around the world and see people doing what people have always done since we looked into a pool of water and realized that hairy upright ape man was us looking back.
I suppose after many years of practicing the 8-Fold Path, the biggest difference I can see is that there are no good guys and bad guys, only people creating their own suffering because all in all, we're a pretty screwed up mess of desires and hatreds and impulses. And people cling to all this. And really, didn't Buddha already tell you this in his Noble Truths?
Not a bit.
Who's brain is it?
Good question! Ha!
So nobody exists in the first place and nobody gets enlightened, so what's it all abart then? Oi dunno!
Ha! Whoever said nobody exists? Who is it sitting there reading this, then, if you don't exist? But that's a common direction out of the paradox that leads nowhere.
Oi dunno!
( "oi dunno" is quite helpful, I learned it off Ajahn Chah who is a closet Zennie )
Perhaps it's our dear (and often neglected) friend "Awareness"
Who's flower is it that's out the window?
When a snow flake falls, who us doing the falling?
Who's awareness is it? Ha!