seeing Dhamma

upekka

'can' 'you' 'see' 'Dhamma' 'in these writing'?

if you see there is no point in this question, please let others to response

theruwan saranai

Shoshin

@upekka the eye makes contact with what appears on the screen (form to form), consciousness arises giving form to perception (neurons firing up-likes dislike -whatever), then sensation, (subtle tensing of the body), after which mental formation concludes WTF ?

In other words I'm not quite sure what it is 'you' wish to convey ....Perhaps others will have a better grip on the question....Good luck

BTW WTF stands for "What The Fish" For some strange reason a Singaporean friend whom I use to work with would always say "What the fish" instead of using the other more popular word that begins with "F"

David

May you be protected by the triple gem.

I can see the dharma expressed by the feeling of the words but I am not sure if I understood the question.

Shoshin

@upekka

On the wall in the lounge I have the following reminder :

"Whoever Sees Dependent Origination Sees The Dharma-
Whoever Sees The Dharma Sees Dependent Origination - !"

pegembara

can ...........you...............see................Dhamma........................................................

All that rises passes away. Their stilling is peace.

lobster

Tee Hee.

The fault always remains with us.

http://www.uua.org/re/tapestry/children/loveguide/session12/168913.shtml

upekka

@Shoshin said:
the eye makes contact with what appears on the screen (form to form), consciousness arises giving form to perception (neurons firing up-likes dislike -whatever), then sensation, (subtle tensing of the body), after which mental formation concludes

this is correct
but
how could we know when the eye contact the writing on the screen, there is 'form to form'

where is the first 'form' and where is the second 'form'

and

how can be so sure they are 'form'?

@pegembara said:
can ...........you...............see................Dhamma........................................................

All that rises passes away.

this is correct

but how can we know these writing rises and passes away?

yes, we read it and heard it and believe it

but are we sure about it?

to be sure we should know a way to see the form and know it is form
and
see that form rises and passes away

do we know and see it or do we believe it on the basis of what we have heard and what we have read?

Shoshin

@upekka said:

@Shoshin said:
the eye makes contact with what appears on the screen (form to form), consciousness arises giving form to perception (neurons firing up-likes dislike -whatever), then sensation, (subtle tensing of the body), after which mental formation concludes WTF ?

how could we know when the eye contact the writing on the screen, there is 'form to form'

correct

but where is the first 'form' and where is the second 'form'

and

how can be so sure they are 'form'?

Sure of the illusion ??? Form is Emptiness....Emptiness is Form @upekka

federica

@upekka said: this is correct
but
how could we know when the eye contact the writing on the screen, there is 'form to form'

where is the first 'form' and where is the second 'form'

and

how can be so sure they are 'form'?
.......

>

this is correct

but how can we know these writing rises and passes away?

yes, we read it and heard it and believe it

but are we sure about it?

to be sure we should know a way to see the form and know it is form
and
see that form rises and passes away

do we know and see it or do we believe it on the basis of what we have heard and what we have read?

No, we believe it on the basis of what we experience and of what the Buddha taught.

What's your point?
Jeesh, honestly, all these cryptic questions.

The answers lie in the Kalama Sutta with a pinch of the simsapa sutta for suitable seasoning.

Take a section of the Dhammapada as the dessert course, and you're done.

One of the best bits of advice I received from a Bikkhuni was "Simplify! Don't overload your Mind with excessive thinking; There is really nothing to work out....!"

upekka

@Shoshin said:

Sure of the illusion ??? Form is Emptiness....Emptiness is Form @upekka

thanks shoshin, i went through the link you provided

but how can we see 'form is (equal) emptiness'
there should be a way to see 'form is emptiness and emptiness is form'

when we see these writing do we see form or do we see emptiness? or do we see both in these writings?

@federica

please let someone who knows these things explains

Jeffrey

If I were blind would I see dharma in those writings? (don't ask how I got blind )

pegembara

@upekka said:

@pegembara said:
can ...........you...............see................Dhamma........................................................

All that rises passes away.

this is correct

but how can we know these writing rises and passes away?

yes, we read it and heard it and believe it

but are we sure about it?

to be sure we should know a way to see the form and know it is form
and
see that form rises and passes away

do we know and see it or do we believe it on the basis of what we have heard and what we have read?

No need to believe anything. See for yourself that you are not a thought nor thinker.

Can.............
you..............
see................
these.............
words...............
arising...................
and.................
passing........................
and ..............
arising...............
and.................
passing................
and....................
finally.............................
ceasing............................
.......................................
......................................

Shoshin

@upekka
"Awareness is fundamentally non conceptual, before thinking splits experience into subject and object...It is empty and so can contain everything, including thought...It is boundless...And amazingly it is intrinsically knowing !"

namarupa

Maybe in this lifetime or the next I'll be able to see the "dhama" in that writing or in anything, as for now, I only see food then I eat it lol.

David

The emptiness of form is the tendency toward change.

If one can see change they can see the emptiness of all things.

It isn't like emptiness is a negative quality, lol.

federica

@upekka said:

@federica

please let someone who knows these things explains

I did.
I quoted the Bikkhuni, who explained by telling me to basically cut through all the diatribe, and simplify.

You can tie yourself into knots if you want, but to be honest, I find it all rather pointless, personally.
I mean, where exactly does it get you?

sova

@namarupa said:
Maybe in this lifetime or the next I'll be able to see the "dhama" in that writing or in anything, as for now, I only see food then I eat it lol.

Eating happens and enjoying happens, but to say that food was eaten would be a mistake!

reading no reader
hearing no hearer
smelling no smeller
tasting no taster
touching no toucher
knowing

no know-er.

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html

'can' & 'you' is more than enough to question !

with love and splendidness, traveling

upekka

@federica said:

I did.
I quoted the Bikkhuni, who explained by telling me to basically cut through all the diatribe, and simplify.

You can tie yourself into knots if you want, but to be honest, I find it all rather pointless, personally.
I mean, where exactly does it get you?

no where

but

@Shoshin , @pegembara ,@Jeffrey, @namarupa and @sova helped me a lot to go forward

i used there answers during my meditation and i happily announce you that i could go forward and 'i' can go forward without anyone's help here after

that is what 'i' have been doing from the 5:00 am up to now

if you (federica) let me ask few more questions 'i will happili do so'

if not

still 'i will happili do what i have been doing from5:00 am up to this point'

metta to you all

theruwan saranai

May 'you' all be protected by the Tripple Gem

federica

'And also with you'.

pegembara

"We" are life.

Listen, Shariputra, all dharmas are marked
with emptiness.
They are neither produced nor destroyed.

“All dharmas are marked with emptiness,” we are saying, “Everything has emptiness as its own nature.” And that is why everything can be. There is a lot of joy in this statement. It means nothing can be born, nothing can die.

Every day in our lives, we see birth and we see death. When a person is born, a birth certificate is printed for them. After they die, a death certificate is made. These certificates confirm the existence of birth and death. But Avalokita said, “No, there is no birth and death.” We have to look more deeply to see whether his statement is true. What is the date on which you were born, your birth date? Before that date, did you already exist? Were you already there before you were born? Let me help you. To be born means from nothing you become something. My question is, before you were born, were you already there?

Suppose a hen is about to lay an egg. Before she gives birth, do you think the egg is already there? Yes, of course. It is inside. You also were inside before you were outside. That means that before you were born, you already existed—inside your mother. The fact is that if something is already there, it does not need to be born. To be born means from nothing you become something. If you are already something, what is the use of being born?

So, your so-called birthday is really your continuation day. The next time you celebrate, you can say, “Happy Continuation Day.” I think that we may have a better concept of when we were born. If we go back nine months to the time of our conception, we have a better date to put on our birth certificates. In China, and also in Vietnam, when you are born, you are already considered one year old. So we say we begin to be at the time of our conception in our mother’s womb, and we write down that date on our birth certificate.

But the question remains: Even before that date, did you exist or not? If you say “yes,” I think you are correct. Before your conception, you were there already, maybe half in your father, half in your mother. Because from nothing, we can never become something. Can you name one thing that was once a nothing? A cloud? Do you think that a cloud can be born out of nothing? Before becoming a cloud, it was water, maybe flowing as a river. It was not nothing. Do you agree?

We cannot conceive of the birth of anything. There is only continuation. Please look back even further and you will see that you not only exist in your father and mother, but you also exist in your grandparents and your great-grandparents. As I look more deeply, I can see that in a former life I was a cloud. This is not poetry; it is science. Why do I say that in a former life I was a cloud? Because I am still a cloud. Without the cloud, I cannot be here. I am the cloud, the river, and the air at this very moment, so I know that in the past I have been a cloud, a river, and the air. And I was a rock. I was the minerals in the water. This is not a question of belief in reincarnation. This is the history of life on Earth. We have been gas, sunshine, water, fungi, and plants. We have been single-celled beings. The Buddha said that in one of his former lives, he was a tree. He was a fish; he was a deer. These are not superstitious things. Every one of us has been a cloud, a deer, a bird, a fish, and we continue to be these things, not just in former lives.

This is not just the case with birth. Nothing can be born, and also nothing can die. That is what Avalokita said. Do you think that a cloud can die? To die means that from something you become nothing. Do you think that we can make something a nothing? Let us go back to our sheet of paper. We may have the illusion that to destroy it, all we have to do is light a match and burn it up. But if we burn a sheet of paper, some of it will become smoke, and the smoke will rise and continue to be. The heat that is caused by the burning paper will enter into the cosmos and penetrate other things. The heat is the next life of the paper. The ash that is formed will become part of the soil, and the sheet of paper, in his or her next life, might be a cloud and a rose at the same time. We have to be very careful and attentive in order to realize that this sheet of paper has never been born and it will never die. It can take on other forms of being, but we are not capable of transforming a sheet of paper into nothingness. Everything is like that, even you and I. We are not subject to birth and death.

Emptiness and Form
Thich Nhat Hanh

DairyLama

@upekka said: but how can we see 'form is (equal) emptiness'

Close observation of experience is the method here, mindfulness in other words. Can you find anything in your experience which is permanent and independent?

upekka

**_what 'we' see do not stay (impermanent,emptiness)

what is there (eight elements) 'we' can not see (emptiness)_**

set of elements arises and disappears because the inherent characteristic of water-element is 'collecting and disintergrating'
it is happening all the time

again

another set of elements arises and disappears

consciousness arises and shows a magic (form, perception, feeling, volition) and disappears

'we' get deluded and think
'i see a thing'
'i hear a thing'
'i smell a thing'
'i taste a thing'
'i feel a thing'
'i remember a thing'
'i think i am thinking'
'i think i am talking'
'i think i am doing'

but only five aggregates(five skandha), name and form (nama-rupa), seeing, hearing, feeling smell, feeling taste, feeling touch, rmembering, thinking, talking and doing arises and falls away

again and again and again and again continuously

this process is permanent until 'we' see the process and stop thinking otherwise

just seeing this process is the first hurdle

to stop the process there is more to do

once one see the process one would know what to do

what we have to do is

Try to see the process

how can we try?

using 'our' sense bases
(you already know these things and i do not think i have to explain them)

Lionduck

Can you see dharma? It's all around you. Every moment of every day/night, it surrounds you, permeated you. You breath it, see it, feel it, hear it, touch it, taste it. Nothing is outside the dharma. Pai, leasure, thought, non-thought, it does not matter. To ask, 'Can you see dharma?' is akin to asking if a fish can see the water in which it swims.

Peace to all

David

Is the dharma self aware?

JohnMac

No, I haven't got my glasses.....

Lionduck

Which pair?

upekka

after one year of dhamma discussions, reading dhamma , listening to dhamma, peactising dhamma/meditation

do you think your own answer has been changed or is it still the same?

Kundo

@upekka said:

@federica

please let someone who knows these things explains

lobster

@upekka said:
after one year of dhamma discussions, reading dhamma, listening to dhamma, peactising dhamma/meditation

do you think your own answer has been changed or is it still the same?

Yes.
Essentially the same despite changing.

In other words, the nature/arising/understanding changes in expression but not in refuge/essence/empty form.