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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Would you consider somebody that pretends to be nuts to hide their superiority over others to be enlightened?
Pretends? Superior? Other?
Of course not.
You did read the link you posted though, right? That was partly the Holy Fools M.O.
The question for the enlightened is really what is the best way to serve others, considering how people make so many ignorant assumptions and judgements. You might have noticed those assumptions ... if not then it is worth looking out for ...
... and now back to other considerations
...
I'm just shooting the breeze. Answering an open question about whether one has to be enlightened to develop wholesome qualities that are conducive to enlightenment.
I'm simply saying I don't think it works that way. Enlightenment is about more than knowing individuality is convention and cannot be hidden by suggesting an inside joke that only the seemingly crazy can understand.
Why? Because the knowing is easy and it isn't that hard to grasp if it's presented simply. The hard part is living it and always being mindful.
One can have qualities of enlightenment without being enlightened but the enlightened as in the completely awake are hard to find because yes, the delusion would be gone and would not return in my honest opinion.
A knowledge of the truth is one thing but understanding it and living accordingly is another. Osho is a good example here. He knew the dharma and was very good with his words but he still duped many of his students in the 70s.
Was it a lesson for them on attachments to materials and/or gurus? If so did it really serve them better than if he lived an honest example of how to live according to the dharma?
Like I said, I'm just shooting the breeze here and my opinion certainly has no weight but I wouldn't think someone is enlightening unless they actually live the truth as an example.
The enlightened are no good to us if they are not enlightening.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Well gee, @David, I'm doing my best! Sheesh, some people are so demanding!
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@federica said:
Well gee, @David, I'm doing my best! Sheesh, some people are so demanding!
I don't know enough to say whether or not you are enlightened but I've found many a post by you to be enlightening.
@Cinorjer said:
Buddhists insist anyone can be enlightened, but can't find anyone who admits to being enlightened because they believe it means they'd have to be perfect all the time.
Tee hee.
There are Buddhists who claim to be enlightened and are not tinker bells.
Casting Gandhi was always going to be a major problem, but in India, casting anyone as Gandhi was controversial. A female journalist objected to Gandhi being portrayed at all, but if he must be, said he should appear on screen “as a moving light”. In a rare loss of temper, Attenborough snapped back, ‘Madam, I am not making a film about bloody Tinkerbell!’ http://qz.com/257044/gandhi-would-have-been-amused-at-being-played-by-an-englishman-nehru-told-richard-attenborough/
I was enlightened yesterday for an entire hour. I'm enlightened now. But maybe on the way to work I'll lose my temper and not be. Then I'll have to be enlightened all over again. Who knows?
LOL
The 13th Quality has to be handled with care. Competitive spirituality is a team event.
Nothing enfuriates the ego more than to learn enlightenment is real and ego is not required but very useful - much like a trained monkey. Will monkey-mind listen? Not so far ... after all ego is an expert on enlightenment ...
LOL
The 13th Quality has to be handled with care. Competitive spirituality is a team event.
Nothing enfuriates the ego more than to learn enlightenment is real and ego is not required but very useful - much like a trained monkey. Will monkey-mind listen? Not so far ... after all ego is an expert on enlightenment ...
...And where would enlightenment be without it "I" wonder
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@federica said:
Well gee, @David, I'm doing my best! Sheesh, some people are so demanding!
I don't know enough to say whether or not you are enlightened but I've found many a post by you to be enlightening.
14th quality: Always be nice to mods. They could ban you.
Sure, but it's true and I've never been one to collect gold stars.
There are a few people here I could say the same to.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
LOL
The 13th Quality has to be handled with care. Competitive spirituality is a team event.
Nothing enfuriates the ego more than to learn enlightenment is real and ego is not required but very useful - much like a trained monkey. Will monkey-mind listen? Not so far ... after all ego is an expert on enlightenment ...
...And where would enlightenment be without it "I" wonder
@Shoshin quoted:
12. Committed to His Spiritual Practice
The enlightened person never forgets how he achieved enlightenment. He is also aware that it takes continuous effort to remain that way. It takes a great deal of spiritual nourishment to help others along their path, so he's aware that he needs to replenish his spiritual strength on a daily basis. Otherwise, he'll lose his effectiveness as a spiritual messenger.
LOL
So many assumptions.
For example that all awake individuals have a spiritual path, are 'spiritual' 'messengers' or have any interest in being or are capable of being 'effective'. The Buddha was not sure he could be 'effective'.
People dream of enlightenment and consequentially project expectations and assumptions. There is some truth present, just as dreams are based on real events.
@Shoshin quoted:
12. Committed to His Spiritual Practice
The enlightened person never forgets how he achieved enlightenment. He is also aware that it takes continuous effort to remain that way. It takes a great deal of spiritual nourishment to help others along their path, so he's aware that he needs to replenish his spiritual strength on a daily basis. Otherwise, he'll lose his effectiveness as a spiritual messenger.
LOL
So many assumptions.
For example that all awake individuals have a spiritual path, are 'spiritual' 'messengers' or have any interest in being or are capable of being 'effective'. The Buddha was not sure he could be 'effective'.
People dream of enlightenment and consequentially project expectations and assumptions. There is some truth present, just as dreams are based on real events.
... And now back to our favoured zzz...
My dear friend @lobster, it would seem that you are reading too much into it and perhaps you should read what he said beforehand and after the list (it's in the link BTW)
"We sometimes say that some people are enlightened, but do we really know what that means? We might say that because they are kind, loving, and insightful. While these may indeed be qualities of an enlightened person, it’s hard to be sure unless we ourselves are enlightened.
I’ve been on a spiritual path most of my life, and in my experience I’ve seen how people are transformed through spiritual practices. Here is a list of qualities that most of them attain. This is not a comprehensive list, but I think it contains some of their most prominent qualities.
Keep in mind that there are varying degrees of enlightenment. That is, everyone is at a different point in his spiritual development, and some may be more enlightened than others. Also, these qualities can be possessed by both men and women. Enlightenment is not exclusive to either sex."
"This is not a comprehensive list of the qualities of an enlightened person. But I think these are the most prominent. My purpose for examining these qualities is to give us a compass to guide us in our spiritual journey — a vision of the path that lies ahead.
From this list, it seems clear that enlightened people live rich and fulfilling lives. Those who achieve any measure of enlightenment do so through some form of daily meditation practice, a willingness to let go of old views, and a commitment to helping others find peace. It takes work and dedication, but it is well worth it."
@lobster said:
There is some truth present, just as dreams are based on real events.
... And now back to our favoured zzz...
Which reminds me of this : "May I clearly perceive all experiences to be as insubstantial as the dream fabric of the night and instantly awaken to perceive the pure wisdom displayed in the arising of every phenomenon!" Part of a Red Tara dedication prayer....
I’ve been on a spiritual path most of my life, and in my experience I’ve seen how people are transformed through spiritual practices._
Transformation, through self help, yoga, mysticism, life experience, meditation etc changes people often and usually for the better, no doubt. Agreed.
While these may indeed be qualities of an enlightened person, it’s hard to be sure unless we ourselves are enlightened.
Are you enlightened @Shoshin?
From my experience the list is limited and limiting. It has all the right dream aspirations but then dreams are like that ...
On a more serious note, No "I AM" not enlightened and from what "I" gather "I" never will be.... "I" really have no interest in 'becoming' enlightened...(whatever that might be-it's too confusing for this simple mind to comprehend ). However the interest "I" do have is simple, it is just to continue to practice the Dharma as best as I can...
Enlightenment is for those who seek it and good luck to them ...Seeking it is really not my cup of tea... In all honesty I'm too busy with my practice to bother about it ...
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited March 2016
"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity"
-- Shunryu Suzuki
Comments
You did read the link you posted though, right? That was partly the Holy Fools M.O.
...
I'm just shooting the breeze. Answering an open question about whether one has to be enlightened to develop wholesome qualities that are conducive to enlightenment.
I'm simply saying I don't think it works that way. Enlightenment is about more than knowing individuality is convention and cannot be hidden by suggesting an inside joke that only the seemingly crazy can understand.
Why? Because the knowing is easy and it isn't that hard to grasp if it's presented simply. The hard part is living it and always being mindful.
One can have qualities of enlightenment without being enlightened but the enlightened as in the completely awake are hard to find because yes, the delusion would be gone and would not return in my honest opinion.
A knowledge of the truth is one thing but understanding it and living accordingly is another. Osho is a good example here. He knew the dharma and was very good with his words but he still duped many of his students in the 70s.
Was it a lesson for them on attachments to materials and/or gurus? If so did it really serve them better than if he lived an honest example of how to live according to the dharma?
Like I said, I'm just shooting the breeze here and my opinion certainly has no weight but I wouldn't think someone is enlightening unless they actually live the truth as an example.
The enlightened are no good to us if they are not enlightening.
Well gee, @David, I'm doing my best! Sheesh, some people are so demanding!
I don't know enough to say whether or not you are enlightened but I've found many a post by you to be enlightening.
Tee hee.
There are Buddhists who claim to be enlightened and are not tinker bells.
Casting Gandhi was always going to be a major problem, but in India, casting anyone as Gandhi was controversial. A female journalist objected to Gandhi being portrayed at all, but if he must be, said he should appear on screen “as a moving light”. In a rare loss of temper, Attenborough snapped back, ‘Madam, I am not making a film about bloody Tinkerbell!’
http://qz.com/257044/gandhi-would-have-been-amused-at-being-played-by-an-englishman-nehru-told-richard-attenborough/
LOL
Indeed.
https://paidtoexist.com/meaning-of-life-enlightenment/
13th Quality
LOL
The 13th Quality has to be handled with care. Competitive spirituality is a team event.
Nothing enfuriates the ego more than to learn enlightenment is real and ego is not required but very useful - much like a trained monkey. Will monkey-mind listen? Not so far ... after all ego is an expert on enlightenment ...
14th quality: Always be nice to mods. They could ban you.
...And where would enlightenment be without it "I" wonder
I like it....The enlightened person leaves traces of enlightenment in their wake so to speak
If you light a lamp for someone else
You will brighten your path.
Sure, but it's true and I've never been one to collect gold stars.
There are a few people here I could say the same to.
No mud, no lotus.
Um unless...."Hydroponics"
LOL
So many assumptions.
For example that all awake individuals have a spiritual path, are 'spiritual' 'messengers' or have any interest in being or are capable of being 'effective'. The Buddha was not sure he could be 'effective'.
People dream of enlightenment and consequentially project expectations and assumptions. There is some truth present, just as dreams are based on real events.
... And now back to our favoured zzz...
My dear friend @lobster, it would seem that you are reading too much into it and perhaps you should read what he said beforehand and after the list (it's in the link BTW)
"We sometimes say that some people are enlightened, but do we really know what that means? We might say that because they are kind, loving, and insightful. While these may indeed be qualities of an enlightened person, it’s hard to be sure unless we ourselves are enlightened.
I’ve been on a spiritual path most of my life, and in my experience I’ve seen how people are transformed through spiritual practices. Here is a list of qualities that most of them attain. This is not a comprehensive list, but I think it contains some of their most prominent qualities.
Keep in mind that there are varying degrees of enlightenment. That is, everyone is at a different point in his spiritual development, and some may be more enlightened than others. Also, these qualities can be possessed by both men and women. Enlightenment is not exclusive to either sex."
"This is not a comprehensive list of the qualities of an enlightened person. But I think these are the most prominent. My purpose for examining these qualities is to give us a compass to guide us in our spiritual journey — a vision of the path that lies ahead.
From this list, it seems clear that enlightened people live rich and fulfilling lives. Those who achieve any measure of enlightenment do so through some form of daily meditation practice, a willingness to let go of old views, and a commitment to helping others find peace. It takes work and dedication, but it is well worth it."
~Charles Francis~
Which reminds me of this : "May I clearly perceive all experiences to be as insubstantial as the dream fabric of the night and instantly awaken to perceive the pure wisdom displayed in the arising of every phenomenon!" Part of a Red Tara dedication prayer....
Transformation, through self help, yoga, mysticism, life experience, meditation etc changes people often and usually for the better, no doubt. Agreed.
While these may indeed be qualities of an enlightened person, it’s hard to be sure unless we ourselves are enlightened.
Are you enlightened @Shoshin?
From my experience the list is limited and limiting. It has all the right dream aspirations but then dreams are like that ...
What is your basis?
If "I" tell "you" I'll have to kill "you"...
On a more serious note, No "I AM" not enlightened and from what "I" gather "I" never will be.... "I" really have no interest in 'becoming' enlightened...(whatever that might be-it's too confusing for this simple mind to comprehend ). However the interest "I" do have is simple, it is just to continue to practice the Dharma as best as I can...
Enlightenment is for those who seek it and good luck to them ...Seeking it is really not my cup of tea... In all honesty I'm too busy with my practice to bother about it ...
"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity"
-- Shunryu Suzuki