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Mental Illness and Work
Bunks
Australia Veteran
How much compassion and leniency does one give to a colleague who takes numerous days off work due to mental illness (stress / anxiety)?
Just for some context, this person started only two weeks ago and has already taken almost a full week off.
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It gets frustrating when someone is supposed to carry their share of the work and just isn't there. I once worked with a girl who took the job just to get insurance, and within a couple weeks, went for weight loss surgery and then never came back. We ended up with huge changes to our insurance as a result of her
But for the most part, I try to cautiously assume the best of people. I don't know their story, and I know I'd hate to be judged if I were suffering through something difficult. Even if we wouldn't react the way someone else does to the same problem, it's not really for us to assume they are "doing it wrong" so to speak.
It's possible they suffer anxiety disorder and a new job is contributing to it getting worse. Perhaps they need to ease in by working part time or something. or perhaps they have major life stuff going on despite the new job. Perhaps they just left an abusive relationship or a parent just died or a child is chronically ill. It could be a million things. I try not to assume if I don't know and just do by best at work since that is all I can control.
I think the compassionate thing is to talk to your supervisor and suggest that the person in question take the time they need for now, and get feeling better, then return to work when they're able.
I used to deal with new hires when I was an assistant warehouse supervisor, and I'd have to handle absenteeism quite a bit with noobs as well as veterans. The rest of the crew suffers when someone is late/absent frequently. It can be demoralizing as well, when leniency is given to new people, and management decides they want to ride a more experienced person's butt because they're taking more than a usual amount of time off.
Your example above, is about a 50% absentee rate. If the person needs help, (and it seems quite clear they do) it's best they they get it now, and postpone starting until they feel they can handle working every day. Perhaps the job is too much for them to deal with right now, it's not necessarily true that they won't be a good employee someday. Maybe a position won't be available when they are ready, and they may have to wait until one does open up.
We have a new General Manager, who misrepresented himself through a recruiter, that has bolloxed l almost everything he has done for eight weeks - all the while claiming he is an "expert" with thirty years experience! The company has hired a fraud at executive salary, who is for all intents and purposes a "trainee"! Meanwhile, we hump along at significantly lower wages cleaning up the mess he is making of our manufacturing process. He even wangled a $6000.00 advance / loan to assist in paying first, last and security deposit on a rental unit! I suspect ADD or even something on the Asperger's spectrum. He never misses a day, but each day he makes the same mistakes he made the day before, sometimes just hours before. He doesn't listen to instructions, leaves tasks unfinished, doesn't check his work, hides mistakes, talks over people and insists that the staff should "get happy" over the new changes. It is difficult to have compassion for one who seems delusional about his own capability. If the business owners don't correct this dilemma soon the staff may leave, en masse, in a compassionate gesture to themselves. It is sad that mental disorder can wreck one's life but even sadder when it drags everyone around him down too. He has admitted to some staff that he has had 7 jobs in the last 6 years (only three jobs were listed on his resume in the last 10 years) - little wonder.
Each person is different for mental illness and I am saying even with the same diagnosis can be very different. I have schizoaffective disorder and in my experience there are vast differences between patients with the same diagnosis. And even myself over the course of my life (with illness) I have been different at different times and this is especially true with med changes and changes in stressors in my life.
I would suggest never to be miserly with compassion. You seem, to me, to be connecting compassion and leniency though; you may want to rethink that.
That sounds painful although your assessment of them possibly having Asperger's sounds a little off the mark!
It would be more likely they'd be TOO honest on their CV if that were the case........
Thanks everyone - initially this morning she said she "will" be in tomorrow and then sent another message later saying she "might" be in tomorrow.
I reckon we might have lost her which is a shame although I do feel some relief. I want to employ someone who is up for the challenge rather than someone who is going to have to take days off when things get a little tough.
It's challenging quantifying compassion in this way.
If not compassion then what other possible intervention?
Here we are considering a colleague's actions at work and to that extent it may be prudent to consider the scope and extent of your responsibilities at work. If monitoring / reporting on attendance or supervision of your colleague is part of your responsibilities then you will be required to provide an objective assessment and the matter will take its course through the established channels. If that is not your responsibility then it would not serve to try to foster it as in not having the adequate authority to take appropriate steps within the agreed contractual framework, you will not be able to fulfil the responsibility and it may inadvertently lead you to foster otherwise avoidable ill will or more.
@Bunks, I agree with you, it's not Asperger's just because he is such an awkward twit. ADD seems more likely, but I'm no diagnostician. Most likely he's just a phony that fell into a position that is way over his head but he sure does seem to have some problems - and so do we - him.
@Bunks , is there any way you (or the company you work for) could employ her part time?
Perhaps this way will help built her confidence which could gradually lead to her working full time again....
Anxiety, stress, depression as we all know can be quite debilitating and ones self esteem can take a severe blow, if one thinks that others think they are useless/hopeless because they can't operate full time...
However this may not be a viable option for the company you work for....
Just thinking along compassionate lines..... out loud ....
Zig Ziglar talks about calling in healthy, as opposed to calling in sick: "I feel MUCH too good to come to work today!"
@IronRabbit is it really necessary to call names about someone who you determined already has problems? I'm taking it a bit personally perhaps because my son has Asperger's and yes, he is awkward sometimes. But I sure hope his classmates and co-workers don't go all around calling him a twit over something he can't control and has worked very hard to alleviate to the best of his ability. I understand being frustrated, and if he did lie and is being a phony to get a job he isn't qualified for, that needs to be addressed (though I would question the people who chose to hire him more than him, as they clearly did a bad job in vetting him as a candidate for such a position). But if he does have some issues, they aren't his fault and calling him names because of your frustration just isn't very kind. I also have a kid with ADD and he's not a twit, either.
Unfortunately part time is probably not an option at this stage @Shoshin - we need someone full time really.
We agreed that we're happy to give her a chance if and when she decides to come back. However, I'd be surprised of she does come back quite frankly.
Oh well, the roller coaster continues.........
For the most part I agree with you @karasti however people (no matter what diagnosis they may have) need to be responsible for their actions.
If this person lied in their interview they need to be held accountable for that. The blame shouldn't lie with the interviewers.
Trust me, as someone who works for a small business and is involved in the interview process at times, you really have no way of knowing what someone is going to be like until they start working. If they blatantly lie to us (we have no control over this) and their references check out (again, we have no control over this) then what else can you do? We've had a number of candidates over the last year or two seem perfect then turn out to be either unsuitable or walk out the door without explanation shortly after commencing.
You can only do what you can under the present circumstances @Bunks ....
I'm often reminded of how complex karma is....we can be the unknowing agents of another's unwholesome karma as it plays out/unfolds, even if we have their best interest at heart, we are just a cog in the karmic wheel of cause, condition, effect ....
Do I understand correctly that this is your position _irrespective _of what their diagnosis may be? I am not attacking this position, merely clarifying. Two unlikely scenarios spring immediately to mind, which I'll offer just to let you know where I'm coming from. Otherwise, my question reads a bit too much like a set up (to me). One example is based on a physical diagnosis, one on a psychiatric diagnosis.
Employee has agreed to be present on the job from 9am-5pm. Diagnosis: heart disease. He or she has a heart attack at 4:15pm. They have a responsibility to be at work until 5pm. Unlikely? Ridiculous? Sure, but on the other hand, happened to me. Incidentally, I finished my shift. Well, not exactly, it was actually the 4pm - 12am shift and the heart attack happened at 11:15pm. As many people that later told me I was irresponsible to not leave immediately - I'd love to be able to point to you and say, "Hey, Bunks thought I should stay too!"
Employee has agreed to be present on the job from 9am-5pm. Diagnosis: Dissociative Identity Disorder aka multiple personality disorder. Employee heads out for lunch at noon but they switch when her alter sees hot fudge on the menu and after lunch promptly goes home for a nap instead of returning to work. Employee had no control over the switch or anything that happened after that - but they did have control over whether to apply for the job in the first place.
@Bunks I didn't mean that they shouldn't be accountable for their actions or if they lied. I've done hiring as well and I know only so much can be found out based on what they happen to include and most people are going to leave off suspect things from their application process. I was mostly responding to the situation Iron Rabbit is in at his/her job where it seems the problems with that person are probably more obvious and probably were more obvious from the start. And also now that that employee has told others he has had so many jobs that he did not include on his application whether anyone has bothered to tell management/hiring/human resources about it, because obtaining a job by fraud is grounds for termination almost all the time. Sorry I wasn't clear on that, I wasn't really referring to the person you are dealing with at your job.
Generally speaking, in the US you are not supposed to mention any issues you have (mental illness, pregnancy, etc) during the interview. Most potential employers will immediately stop you from talking about it because there is always a risk to them over being sued for not hiring based on those factors. But if you are offered the job, at that point you are supposed to let human resources know what is going on and what accommodations you need. So that can make it tricky, too, at least here. Medical privacy is taken very seriously. With our diabetic kid, my husband qualifies for our family leave act, but his supervisor isn't allowed to know why. just that he is. Only HR knows why my husband is eligible, the supervisor is not allowed to ask because of privacy.
I guess there are always exceptions @yagr - thanks for pointing that out.
I am just feeling frustrated right now - she has been a way for a week now with a "Headache".
We have reached out to her everyday and said call us if you want to chat.
No response.
.....and I have too much work to do, haven't had enough sleep and have drunk too much coffee!!
Uh oh, I feel a pity party coming on.......
As a mental ilness sufferer I know how hard it can be on occasion to keep going to work every day - and especially starting new work. Some days a trully heroic effort is necessary - that nobody notices.
We have no idea what the OP's "problem employee" is really going through or how strong the symptoms are. People usually tend to understate problems - there is much stigma within our societies and people are scared of losing their job.
But I do get the employer and coworker aspect of it. Mental ilness truly is shitty on ocassion!
In my opinion (hunch), the next "human rights" will be that of the mentally ill and animals. As many mentaly ill people cannot compete on the job marketplace, there will be a need to (partially) subsidize their salaries. Work is therapeutic and this is cheaper than benefits. There will be a need for de-stigmatization campaigns. Much work to be done - someone smarter than me will have to operationalize it.
@karasti, I don't know you or your children and certainly did not attack them, so your defensive attitude is competely misplaced, in my opinion.
@IronRabbit No, but you are attacking others by name calling out of frustration regardless. A little understanding goes a long ways. What if you did know the issues the person faced? Right now you feel justified in your feelings because you don't know, but if you did, you might find you feel bad for having said unkind things because you didn't realize. The point is, most often we don't know, and not knowing what someone's issues are isn't justification for name calling out of frustration.
For example, when I shop with my son we talk about diet stuff, because he is a diabetic. Because he is only 7, sometimes people feel justified in giving me dirty looks or even in telling me I shouldn't have my son on a low carb diet. Then when I explain "thanks for your concern, but he is a diabetic, so carbs are something we have to watch" they feel dumb for having made assumptions. It's easier not to go down that road. For everyone.
"Be kind, everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."
I'm not upset, or even really defensive. Just trying to give you another way to think about things. Name calling even just in our minds isn't good for anyone, especially us. It completely influences how we think about that person every time we see them. As someone who has kids who have issues, I just hope people will look upon them with kindness more often than name calling. As a result, I try to do the same for others.
Could you have expressed your frustrations with less offensive word choices? I found it inappropriate too.
You are right we often don't know. For example you don't know my situation at all nor did you bother to inquire, just admonish. You don't know that my son died in my arms at age 21 from stage four t-cell cancer seventeen weeks after he was diagnosed just as he was about to begin his adult life. You think you know frustration? My advice to you is do the best you can with your life and give up chastising those you think should be better. That goes for you too @Steve_B.
Respond if you like, I am finished with this exchange.
Excellent advice. Your general manager, and I suspect some of your coworkers, will probably be glad to see you give up chastising those you think should be better.
>
Owooo goody ....Is it "BYOG" ( Bring Your Own Gripes )
Ha! Feeling better now thanks @Shoshin - had a bit of a whine to my manager and moved on
Good. glad to hear it....
Good Day!
Just a thought. :-)
Assuming that most people(if not all), have experienced at least once in their social life, wherein one member of the group is not helping out( being a burden to the team), one can't help but somehow feel being abused in one way or another. Some may have a sense of some responsibility to do something about it, either to change one self's perspective or to a kind act to help the person change. That being said, it can be viewed as a nice way to achieve harmony.
However, digging deep into the feeling? What does it mean when we asked a question in reference of time and duration ?As to say when enough is enough. What do the individual really feel? Where did the question came from, how did it arises? Is it for the main reason of being concern for the subject? Is it for the business as a whole? Or is it due to the unpleasant experience its bringing in to us? If answered, where does it leads us? These are just a few questions we can ask to oneself. just to be clear, Im not questioning the validity or ever imply that the question is wrong itself. To understand something or someone, one should understand oneself and it can be only done by being honest to oneself.
If a child dint understand what their parents said, at what point can they escalate to another method to communicate? how much patience and leniency does a parent give to their children to make sure that the lesson is conveyed clearly with minimal or no stress to the child?
It was said; "If someone wishes to be strong, they will be given situations wherein they can exercise such characteristics....If one wishes...."
Opportunity comes to people who least expect it..moreover, the ability to recognize one....:-)
OP, I gather you're in some position of authority, so you have to deal with this, or make a decision? Normally a thing like this would be up to the supervisor or boss. My first reaction was, "Why is the person in charge allowing this?" But assuming that you're involved in the chain of command in some capacity--
Most places of employment have rules about this sort of thing. There's a probationary period during which the new hire isn't allowed to take any sick leave. If your employer has such a rule, apply it. Clearly the individual isn't suited for the job or for work in general, and might do better applying for disability. This kind of thing is usually pretty cut-and-dry.
And if she misrepresented herself in the application and interview process, that's normally grounds for immediate dismissal.
Is there a reason why these fairly universal norms aren't being applied?
Yes - because I live in Australia
Seriously though, an employee is entitled to ten days sick leave from the day they commence here so I am not sure we can just dismiss her.
We are trying to be understanding because she obviously has mental health problems.
I fully expect her to resign any day now.
@Bunks Glad to hear you are feeling a bit better
At what point is someone to have considered abandoned their job? Even if she has the 10 days of sick leave, she is going to be nearing that soon. At that point what happens?
That said, I am glad you have better policies. Here, many places have up to 6 months of probation where you cannot take any time off. So if your child is sick or you have an appointment or they have a school play, you cannot do any of it without being at risk of losing your job. It shouldn't be that way. My husband's job used to be that way but it is not anymore. They now get a portion of their paid time off upon hiring, thankfully.
@IronRabbit it's a discussion forum. That means when you say something, others are allowed to comment on it. I'm sorry for the loss of your son. I cannot imagine a worse pain. The man at your job is the son of someone as well.
Hi @karasti - yes, I worked in the US for a year some time ago and I remember being a little shocked at the entitlements people get. I think the people I worked with only got 3 weeks annual leave and no sick leave.
We are lucky in Australia too in that we have something called Long Service Leave. If you stay at one company for ten years you get three months paid leave. I guess it's kind of a thank you for long service!
It's the benefit of having a fairly strongly unionised work force in the early days. As I understand it, when Australia was first settled by Europeans there weren't a lot of people so the employees had a fair bit of power. If they wanted to strike for better conditions the employers hands were tied as there was no-one to replace them. The US was the opposite. With a constant huge influx of migrants, if the workers wanted to strike they were easily replaced so conditions didn't improve as much and the employers had the upper hand.
@Bunks I think you are right. Our state is fairly unionized and it makes a major difference. He is well paid and has much better compensation for time off and sick leave and other such things than many states or un-unionized career fields. He is a state employee so their union is rather large. WI next door used to have the same, and their governor has all but dismantled the entire system
It's now just a mess, and their economy is in the toilet while ours is doing well and our state has a budget surplus. I wish more people understood that when you take good care of others, it helps everyone and your communities and state and country as a whole. I'm glad to live in a decent, progressive state. I wish we had more of it as country, though.