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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@karasti said: @David don't get stuck on the details of the definitions of the words. As long as we are on the same page as we discuss it is fine.
But it doesn't seem like we are all on the same page. The two words have completely different meanings but they are being used as synonyms.
Remember these are words that are many hundreds of years old and do not translate well into modern language much. Nevermind then trying to translate into English.
All the more reason to ponder them out. How can we take something at face value when it's wearing a mask?
What makes more sense - a warning not to contemplate the great mysteries at all or a warning not to form a conclusive belief around them?
Seriously.
I think getting a good translation of the actual words used in the sutra is important. Subtle differences can make a big change in the message. Look how different the Noble Truth is, if you think Dukkha just means pain. Just because a sentence from the old Sanskrit or Pali scrolls gets translated one way back when only a few scholars struggled with it, doesn't mean it is entirely correct.
Exactly. Subtle misunderstandings can and likely will lead to fundamental misunderstandings.
According to the Sanskrit-English translations available on the web, Acintya (Sanscrit) means "incomprehensible, surpassing thought." I didn't know that.
Now to me, incomprehensible is different from imponderable. First, imponderable is a strange word that isn't normally used. Does it mean this subject can't be pondered, or is forbidden to be pondered, or what? And since to ponder is to think about something, obviously people think about karma a lot.
But incomprehensible is a word we're familiar with. The subject is too vast or complicated or removed from our experience to totally wrap our minds around.
Which is why I imagine the message was to stay unattached to any conclusions we may come across while pondering these things.
It's a very different message than saying not to ponder them at all. That's a kind of aversion.
@Will_Baker said:
I believe words are important. In defense of the word conjecture, it seems to me it should be pointed out a conjecture = a theory.
Conjecture is not a theory though. Conjecture is defined as a conclusion based on incomplete information or evidence.
Wheres, when I think of the word ponder, to me (and to merriam-webster) it can mean "prolonged/inconclusive thinking." Perhaps, the limited knowledge-base of the time correlates to the language used in this sutta, and given this limitation, the idea of pursuing a given line of inquiry would simply prove fruitless?
Could be. Then again, finding out the truth isn't always the goal to contemplation. Sometimes it's just an exercise in logic.
I'm not intending to be argumentative. The word "conjecture" is in fact a synonym for the word "theory." The phase "a theory" is synonymous with the phrase "a conjecture." They can have the same meanings:
con·jec·ture
kənˈjekCHər/Submit
noun
1.
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
"conjectures about the newcomer were many and varied"
synonyms: speculation, guesswork, surmise, fancy, presumption, assumption, theory, postulation, supposition; More
verb
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited April 2016
I assumed you meant a real theory as in the scientific sort which is far from a guess and not a synonym for conjecture.
Comments
Exactly. Subtle misunderstandings can and likely will lead to fundamental misunderstandings.
Which is why I imagine the message was to stay unattached to any conclusions we may come across while pondering these things.
It's a very different message than saying not to ponder them at all. That's a kind of aversion.
I'm not intending to be argumentative. The word "conjecture" is in fact a synonym for the word "theory." The phase "a theory" is synonymous with the phrase "a conjecture." They can have the same meanings:
con·jec·ture
kənˈjekCHər/Submit
noun
1.
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
"conjectures about the newcomer were many and varied"
synonyms: speculation, guesswork, surmise, fancy, presumption, assumption, theory, postulation, supposition; More
verb
I assumed you meant a real theory as in the scientific sort which is far from a guess and not a synonym for conjecture.
My bad.