Feeling and perception

upekka

there are three type of volition, citta sankara (volition in mind, thought)

vacci sankara (volition in words)

and kaya sankara (volition in deed)

feeling and perception are citta sankara
lying, hash words, tell-tale and gossip are vacci sankara, in a more sensitive way vitakka and viccara are vacci sankara
killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct are kaya sankara, in amore sensitive way inhale and exhale are kaya sankara

these sankara can be put into another three catagories, punnabhi sankara (wholesome thoughts, words, deeds)
apunnabhi sankara (unwholesome thoughts, words, deeds)
anenjabhi sankara (jhana)

whenever there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling or a thought comes into mind there is five aggregates arise and fall away
that means form, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness arise and fall away

my question is:
even though we can not avoid arising of five aggregates whenever seeing etc. happens, wouldn't it be fruitful if we can stop reacting at feeling and perception?

i mean if we see the absurdity to react to feeling or perception and do not react, the problem would be solved then and there for one thing which arises because of our previous stupidity

our previous stupidity means we have reacted before because we were deluded and five aggregates arise because of that

if we are wise enough now to see that and do not react to the thing arises now, then and there one of the problem is solved

if things written in here are too complicated just ignore this

thanks

David

I think it really depends on what you mean by reacting. If you mean not emoting or acting solely on emotion I could agree to a point but if you mean not reacting when someone is in need I could not.

Or if a thought comes to mind because of perception of hunger and I do not react...

Maybe I am misunderstanding the question.

Fosdick

@upekka said

if we are wise enough now to see that and do not react to the thing arises now, then and there one of the problem is solved

The problem is solved in that moment, but is likely to arise again, and again, and again.
The next time, maybe we are tired, stressed, feeling crappy, and may react rather more badly. It is a reflex that takes a long time to develop, but what you suggest is, in my experience, how it does develop. Reactivity does not die easily.

And, as @David proposes, not all our reactions are undesirable - but all of them have to be examined and understood. All extremely, maddeningly, inefficient.

pegembara

@upekka said:

my question is:
even though we can not avoid arising of five aggregates whenever seeing etc. happens, wouldn't it be fruitful if we can stop reacting at feeling and perception?

Yes

i mean if we see the absurdity to react to feeling or perception and do not react, the problem would be solved then and there for one thing which arises because of our previous stupidity

Yes

our previous stupidity means we have reacted before because we were deluded and five aggregates arise because of that

The five aggregates arise regardless of whether there is stupidity or not. The difference is the "stupid" person assumes the aggregates as me or mine or myself whereas the wise doesn't.

if we are wise enough now to see that and do not react to the thing arises now, then and there one of the problem is solved

Yes

upekka

@pegembara said:

The five aggregates arise regardless of whether there is stupidity or not. The difference is the "stupid" person assumes the aggregates as me or mine or myself whereas the wise doesn't.

True, that is for the present moment

but i meant because of the previous stupidity and reaction the five aggregates arise now

pegembara

The 5 aggregates still arise for the wise.

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

When the 5 aggregates no longer arise, one is no longer alive.

lobster

my question is:
even though we can not avoid arising of five aggregates whenever seeing etc. happens, wouldn't it be fruitful if we can stop reacting at feeling and perception?

My feeling is @pegembara has answered this very well.

It would be fruitful, that does not mean we are sufficiently 'cultivated' to allow feelings and perception to not invoke reaction. Many of us (lobsters guilty claw goes up) are still effected by ... what do they call that near shore place with dukkha ... samsara ... that's it ...

As those of us making formal efforts on the path know, we are calmer and perhaps a little more skilful at dealing with life's kamma chameleon changes ...

If we are swallowed by samsara, captivated by perception and sensation, we really need to practice (just in case anyone was wondering).

Some of us are in the process of generating positive karma/kamma that will slow our hectic ups and downs. The Middle Way is a range of aggregates/factors. Does anyone have a more skilful plan? If so follow it ...

upekka

@lobster said:

Some of us are in the process of generating positive karma/kamma that will slow our hectic ups and downs.

do you mean 'generating positive karma will slow our hectic ups and downs' and would stop hectic ups and down one day
>

The Middle Way is a range of aggregates/factors.

could you explain this a bit further please

thanks

lobster

@upekka said:
do you mean 'generating positive karma will slow our hectic ups and downs' and would stop hectic ups and down one day

Both.
The more of the 8 fold path (aka the Buddhist plan) and precepts we can implement, the better in the immediate and long term. I would also caution people against premature 'biting off more than we can chew'.

The Middle Way is a range of aggregates/factors.

could you explain this a bit further please

The Middle Way is both very personal AND dependent on our personal capacity and level of insight. In other words we are travelling to our Middle Way. This may mean we exhibit temporary extreme measures. For example extreme alignment, sutra or other belief/dependency or practice of the dharma. In essence dharma fanaticism. Just an important phase.
However the more experienced and able/skilful practitioners may utilise BUT never be swamped by these tight assed practitioner stances aka dharma self-policing tactics ...

As I always say when in the Hell realms, 'Get Behind me Lucifer Buddha'.
http://opcoa.st/0bP5v

Hope some of that is helpful ...

DairyLama

@upekka said: > even though we can not avoid arising of five aggregates whenever seeing etc. happens, wouldn't it be fruitful if we can stop reacting at feeling and perception?

Feeling and perception are aggregates though. And according to suttas consciousness, feeling and perception are inseparable.

namarupa

I came in to work this morning and overheard some gossip in the breakroom. Immediately I wondered if they were talking about me. This actually could have ruined my day if had continued to dwell on it throughout the day. I thought about how this is only my perception, and I understand now that I am creating stories because of it. In the end it went from possibly overthinking, to feelings of sympathy, and sympathy wins because I feel sorry for people that run into problems and create it for themselves. I would never want to create it for myself, add to it, or cause it on others.

upekka

@namarupa said:
I came in to work this morning and overheard some gossip in the breakroom. Immediately I wondered if they were talking about me. This actually could have ruined my day if had continued to dwell on it throughout the day. I thought about how this is only my perception, and I understand now that I am creating stories because of it. In the end it went from possibly overthinking, to feelings of sympathy, and sympathy wins because I feel sorry for people that run into problems and create it for themselves. I would never want to create it for myself, add to it, or cause it on others.

this is a good day to day example to know how we can reduce our own suffering by applying Buddha's Teaching into our day to day life

this is called 'be mindful with Right view at the present moment'

@SpinyNorman said:

@upekka said: > even though we can not avoid arising of five aggregates whenever seeing etc. happens, wouldn't it be fruitful if we can stop reacting at feeling and perception?

Feeling and perception are aggregates though. And according to suttas consciousness, feeling and perception are inseparable.

True

when one sees, hears, ets (aware of what is happening at the moment) with one's eyes, ears, etc (these are forms) of form, sound, etc. (these are forms too) feeling and perception (these are fabrication too) also arise at the same time

so whenever one sees, hears, etc. all five aggregates arise and it is not a problem because they arise as a result of previously made conditions (result of previous fabrication)

problem starts when one doesn't see the perception that brings with the experience (seeing, hearing, etc) as perception

@namarupa explains it very well with his/her own experience

upekka

perception = labels

labels comes from within

whenever there is a seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, remembering there is a label

labels has no inherent quality because it is just a given name and it comes from within and there is nothing outside

that is why it is said there is only emptiness (emptiness is form, form is emptiness)

what do you say?

you have to do bit of Insight meditation to answer

if not

the answer would be another perception

it is very hard to get rid of perception unless you are mindful of arising of perception

RuddyDuck9

@upekka I don't think my brain is big enough to answer these questions without using preconceived notions and labels...

DairyLama

@upekka said: it is very hard to get rid of perception unless you are mindful of arising of perception

I don't think we're trying to get rid of perceptions, rather it's seeing that they arise in dependence on conditions - so they are transient and not-self.

The perceptions of "car" and "bus" are actually very useful when crossing a busy road.

upekka

@SpinyNorman said:

@upekka said: it is very hard to get rid of perception unless you are mindful of arising of perception

I don't think we're trying to get rid of perceptions, rather it's seeing that they arise in dependence on conditions - so they are transient and not-self.

The perceptions of "car" and "bus" are actually very useful when crossing a busy road.

Thanks
i see now, even Enlightened ones have to live with perception and other four aggregates

the difference is we worldlings cling to perception and we have have five aggregates of clinging while enlightened ones have five aggregates until they reached their last breath

thanks @SpinyNorman