Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
@SpinyNorman I think only you can say what your goal is. You can read teacher's ideas to search out your wishes/goals but when it comes down to it you have your goal and while reading may influence your thinking the bottom line is it is your goal. And that is part of the path. My teacher (not Pema Chodron) calls that 'the heart wish' and those terms ('heart wish') are in the context of my teachers other teachings and dialogue she has with her students. Part of the idea of 'heart wish' is to really examine your goals and motives and see what is true and perhaps what is hidden. For instance why do we like to go shopping? Pure greed? Or are there heart qualities about liking shopping? What is inside liking to feel happy about a new thingabob? Rather than have a sermon about the negativity of greed perhaps take a look inside the greed and see what that is?
For Pema in the context of the talk where she was saying pleasure was not the goal she also said that the good news is that pain is not the goal either. In that dharma talk she listed 5 things you can do in meditation. 1 Be a friend to yourself 2 See what is there 3 sit with difficult states 4 be in the present 5 make no big deal.
But it's always going to be quite important what YOUR honest goal is and not so much what is in a book.
For the Buddha I think at some point he was interested in the fact that he saw the four sights. The story was that he escaped the control his father had of him to prevent him seeing the sights. These sights I think were sickness, old age, and death. And also he saw 'holy' people meditating. So probably during that time Buddhas goal in meditation had something to do with those sights.
I dont think duration or timing matters much for beginners. For example a beginner at swimming would not be able to keep above water for very long anyways. They just need to learn all the techniques and carry it out properly at first, and should not worry at all about how long they can keep afloat I think.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I think keeping afloat is extremely important - not to say vital - for a person who can't swim, as the alternative holds very little advantage.
I am going to 'spare one minute to my swimming' is ridiculous if one is already drowning.
That really is the situation and the one minute advice may suit the fickle minded and latest Facebook fad generation but frankly it is [lobster puts on wrathful hat] feeble.
What I would say is a seasoned meditator can make a great deal of a minute but that option is not really open to the instant meditators ...
I would recommend a little effort. Gentle effort of course ...
Attachment to enjoyment in meditation is tricky, just as attachment to stillness can be. Meditation is, regardless of the warnings on attachment, one of the most compassionate acts one can do for oneself (for a minute or for nine years). Once one wades through the pain of posture, the gyrating monkey mind, the settled upon technique - the suffering - there is refuge. In beginning, a visualization of lovingly potty training an adorable puppy by returning her to the paper on the floor is one way (of many) to return to awareness of breath when the mind-kite soars among the clouds of thought. Some relate such self absorption to nihilism, but holding the thought of being kind to oneself only enhances the ability to be kind to others (would that be a goal @SpinyNorman?) Results are less important than repetition. Sort of like writing code for awareness, its a lot of work but the program runs when it is done and done and done.
I am going to 'spare one minute to my swimming' is ridiculous if one is already drowning.
That really is the situation and the one minute advice may suit the fickle minded and latest Facebook fad generation but frankly it is [lobster puts on wrathful hat] feeble.
What I would say is a seasoned meditator can make a great deal of a minute but that option is not really open to the instant meditators ...
I would recommend a little effort. Gentle effort of course ...
Why is starting with one minute feeble? It's a starting point, not just that, but an invitation... an invitation that states 'this is NOT intimidating, you can begin now, it's easy, just do one minute, that's enough'. What is feeble about that? This isn't about meditating for one minutes, this is about creating conditions where more people feel comfortable giving meditation a go.
“You can search throughout the entire universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and affection than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found anywhere. You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”
― Gautama Buddha
@how said:> While I do understand the temptation to luxuriate in stillness,
not caring about becoming attached to that stillness is an odd meditative affect.?
The first rule we should begin with, if we want meditation to be in our life for a long time, is: Don’t make a rigid structure and then chastise ourselves when we don’t live up to it. Better to keep a limber mind and develop a tenderness toward existence.
In soto Zen...
a mind that is calm, excited, dull or clear, is actually not the meditative point.
The issue is less about having the mind that we may or may not want, and is more about learning how not to cling to, push away or ignore whatever thoughts, forms, sensations, activities or consciousness, happen to be arising or passing away in this moment.
This is very interesting to me. "Learning how not to cling to, push away, or ignore..." how can I neither cling to nor ignore these stimuli? I always try to imagine distractions like an echo that slowly recedes and then I'd eventually gone... But isn't that considered "pushing away?" How do I succeed in quieting my mind without having to push away the distractions?
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Just experience them. "See" them observe them, but let them pass. Do not examine them or question them. As a small cloud floats by, so let these phenomena arise, be seen, and let them float by.
@SpinyNorman ... So instead of actively pushing away, simply let it fade on its own? That's a tall order for me! I'm the type of person who always has a handful of things spinning about in my noggin, or at the very least, a catchy tune over and over again (this morning it was the old standard "feelin good"). I find myself constantly refocusing back on my breath or my white noise or what have you because those catchy brass notes keep resurfacing! Is this something that can really be taught, or will I have one if those "aha!" moments some day?
It does take time, and patience, but in the meantime just be aware of your state of mind, whatever that is. I find that re-establishing mindfulness of the body is usually helpful, it brings me back to the present, makes me more grounded and less "in my head". The breath is one option, but I mostly use an exercise I call "feeling your weight", just being aware of sensation of pressure due to gravity at various points.
Comments
@SpinyNorman I think only you can say what your goal is. You can read teacher's ideas to search out your wishes/goals but when it comes down to it you have your goal and while reading may influence your thinking the bottom line is it is your goal. And that is part of the path. My teacher (not Pema Chodron) calls that 'the heart wish' and those terms ('heart wish') are in the context of my teachers other teachings and dialogue she has with her students. Part of the idea of 'heart wish' is to really examine your goals and motives and see what is true and perhaps what is hidden. For instance why do we like to go shopping? Pure greed? Or are there heart qualities about liking shopping? What is inside liking to feel happy about a new thingabob? Rather than have a sermon about the negativity of greed perhaps take a look inside the greed and see what that is?
For Pema in the context of the talk where she was saying pleasure was not the goal she also said that the good news is that pain is not the goal either. In that dharma talk she listed 5 things you can do in meditation. 1 Be a friend to yourself 2 See what is there 3 sit with difficult states 4 be in the present 5 make no big deal.
But it's always going to be quite important what YOUR honest goal is and not so much what is in a book.
For the Buddha I think at some point he was interested in the fact that he saw the four sights. The story was that he escaped the control his father had of him to prevent him seeing the sights. These sights I think were sickness, old age, and death. And also he saw 'holy' people meditating. So probably during that time Buddhas goal in meditation had something to do with those sights.
I dont think duration or timing matters much for beginners. For example a beginner at swimming would not be able to keep above water for very long anyways. They just need to learn all the techniques and carry it out properly at first, and should not worry at all about how long they can keep afloat I think.
I think keeping afloat is extremely important - not to say vital - for a person who can't swim, as the alternative holds very little advantage.
^^^
Exactly so.
I am going to 'spare one minute to my swimming' is ridiculous if one is already drowning.
That really is the situation and the one minute advice may suit the fickle minded and latest Facebook fad generation but frankly it is [lobster puts on wrathful hat] feeble.
What I would say is a seasoned meditator can make a great deal of a minute but that option is not really open to the instant meditators ...
I would recommend a little effort. Gentle effort of course ...
Attachment to enjoyment in meditation is tricky, just as attachment to stillness can be. Meditation is, regardless of the warnings on attachment, one of the most compassionate acts one can do for oneself (for a minute or for nine years). Once one wades through the pain of posture, the gyrating monkey mind, the settled upon technique - the suffering - there is refuge. In beginning, a visualization of lovingly potty training an adorable puppy by returning her to the paper on the floor is one way (of many) to return to awareness of breath when the mind-kite soars among the clouds of thought. Some relate such self absorption to nihilism, but holding the thought of being kind to oneself only enhances the ability to be kind to others (would that be a goal @SpinyNorman?) Results are less important than repetition. Sort of like writing code for awareness, its a lot of work but the program runs when it is done and done and done.
Why is starting with one minute feeble? It's a starting point, not just that, but an invitation... an invitation that states 'this is NOT intimidating, you can begin now, it's easy, just do one minute, that's enough'. What is feeble about that? This isn't about meditating for one minutes, this is about creating conditions where more people feel comfortable giving meditation a go.
For me the goal is stillness and spaciousness as a basis for exploration.
I'm a bit attached to stillness, but frankly I don't care. It seems like such a nice attachment!
While I do understand the temptation to luxuriate in stillness,
not caring about becoming attached to that stillness is an odd meditative affect.?
Where do you think quietism, spiritual door mats and pretchekka Buddhas, come from?
Do you think a "nice" attachment somehow results in a "nice" suffering or that the 4NT doesn't apply here?
“You can search throughout the entire universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and affection than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found anywhere. You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”
― Gautama Buddha
I know, I'm a reprobate.
http://tricycle.org/magazine/rules-for-a-long-term-relationship/?utm_source=Tricycle&utm_campaign=466fcec0e4-Daily_Dharma_May_18_201605_18_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1641abe55e-466fcec0e4-307236489
Mr. T. doesn't agree.
The Dude minds.
This is very interesting to me. "Learning how not to cling to, push away, or ignore..." how can I neither cling to nor ignore these stimuli? I always try to imagine distractions like an echo that slowly recedes and then I'd eventually gone... But isn't that considered "pushing away?" How do I succeed in quieting my mind without having to push away the distractions?
Just experience them. "See" them observe them, but let them pass. Do not examine them or question them. As a small cloud floats by, so let these phenomena arise, be seen, and let them float by.
A popular approach is to focus on an object like the breath.
@SpinyNorman ... So instead of actively pushing away, simply let it fade on its own? That's a tall order for me! I'm the type of person who always has a handful of things spinning about in my noggin, or at the very least, a catchy tune over and over again (this morning it was the old standard "feelin good"). I find myself constantly refocusing back on my breath or my white noise or what have you because those catchy brass notes keep resurfacing! Is this something that can really be taught, or will I have one if those "aha!" moments some day?
It does take time, and patience, but in the meantime just be aware of your state of mind, whatever that is. I find that re-establishing mindfulness of the body is usually helpful, it brings me back to the present, makes me more grounded and less "in my head". The breath is one option, but I mostly use an exercise I call "feeling your weight", just being aware of sensation of pressure due to gravity at various points.
Body is required.