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abortion
what is the buddhist view on abortion? or is there one?
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I always pondered witht he rape thing.
Abortion is a very touchy subject.
It is so touchy, so full of potential for dispute rather than debate, opposition rather than consensus, that I have come to the conclusion that I can reach any absolute conclusion at all.
Some people's answer is to say that the woman can just give the baby up for adoption. I used to think that, too. However, if the woman does choose to stay pregnant and give the child up for adoption, there isn't much guarantee that the children will actually be placed in a good home. The state put my cousins in foster care only for them to end up abused and so messed up that I have to wonder if it would have been better to keep them with their druggie parents. And again, there are still all the problems associated with pregnancy.
Of course, I do believe women should avoid abortion if reasonably possible. If for anything, just to save them the mental anguish they might have if they aren't sure about their decision. However, I don't think I can tell someone else what options they can or cannot have - especially since I have a loving husband with a well paying job, a nice home, a supportive family. etc.
Interestingly enough, I read somewhere that there have actually been MORE abortions in the U.S. during the Bush presidency than the Clinton presidency. That's in part because of the economic downturn we've experienced here. If people really want to reduce abortions, the answer is not outlawing them. The answer is to:
(1) give women the tools to keep from getting unwanted pregnancies in the first place (easy access to cheap contraception including the morning after pill, rape prevention, thorough sexual education, etc.)
(2) reduce the risk of physical harm to the woman as a result of pregnancy (health insurance, help escaping from abusive relationships, etc.)
(3) make sure that they have the tools to where they can support a child if they do decide to keep the baby (such as education, job training, maternity leave, a reasonable minimum wage, etc.)
In truth, there is no hard-and-fast answer to any of these questions, nor should we be tempted to believe there are. They are individuals caught in hard places and each of them will show a unique face of suffering.
Some will need to engage at a wide social level, some at the individual. Whichever is our route to bring relief of suffering, we do no one any good if we simply recite the sutras or fold our hands and say, "Escape from suffering lies in the Noble Eighfold Path". Our own practice of the N8FP aclls us to compassionate action. It is the existential challenge of the Dharma.
And, whatever our own opinion, it is the person(s) in front of us who hurt and that's what matters.
Thanks. As you can probably tell, it bothers me that so many women are portrayed as evil baby killers because they got an abortion. Compassion should definitely go to them as well.
I don't want the government passing laws to restrict reasonable abortion access (other than partial-birth which I have issue with). At the same time, the two people resposible for creating a pregnancy need to step up and deal with their responsibilities. Using abortion as a means of birth control because you were too irresponsible to use a condom is immoral. If you're not ready for the possibility that you might incur a pregnancy then don't take the chance that the condom might break.
It's not my responsibility to pay for the healthcare of the irresponsible. It's not my responsibility to put a condom on them or their partner.
The media and the special interest groups have caused us to just accept that the government (ie. our tax dollars) is responsible for holding our hands and giving us everything. It's not.
I'm more than willing to help people who are in need but I don't think the government should tell me WHO or HOW I'm gonna provide that help.
Personal responsibility should be goal number one.
1. What is this "government" of which you speak, other than the extension of the people?
2. Do people have responsibility for each other?
3. You may not want tax receipts spent on (for example) health care. Does that mean that you do want them spent on weapons?
A healthy nation is more likely to be happier and more productive than a sick one.
In that case what is the general consensus on contraception? And sex for fun rather than pro creation?
Such a definition would be useful at both ends of the incarnation as the sad case of PVS patients can demonstrate.
Yes, the government is supposed to be an extension of the people. The larger it gets, the more outta-touch it becomes with what the people want or need. The People loan power to the government NOT the government loans power to The People...at least that's the way it should be.
I realise though that another person cannot make that call on someone elses life.
I think what I was getting at was abortion in the case of medical problems with the foetus or the mother.
I believe there is a critical issue to consider here: when is this thing life? What is life? Because you have a collection of cells doesn't mean it is necessarily alive. The medical community, for what it's worth, defines life as having certain kinds of brain wave/brain activity. This is why things like viruses aren't life (plus the DNA issue, in the case of viruses). Up to a certain point it is considered that the fetus has the potential to be alive. But until that point (41/2 to 5 months) it is not yet truly life. It's close, but no cigar. An acorn is not the same as an oak tree. It has the potential within it to be an oaktree, but its potential isn't yet initiated or fulfilled.
That being said, there's certainly an argument for when does the soul arrive on the scene? Certainly, the energy flowing off of the mother changes, but this may not reflect changes related to the appearance of a separate soul but may in fact reflect changes in the woman.
I think most of us would agree that people need to make this decision on their own, within their own consciences and with their own ideas of what makes for God, and what makes for morality.
So here's an interesting tidbit that may very well just reflect my own inner struggles and conflicts (no doubt it does) but still, it's interesting. Once, about two years ago, I had this unusual dream. This was in my pre-Buddhist days, even before I really knew it existed. I had been dreaming this spinning things since I was a child which I later learned are in fact mandalas: they spin, and change constantly as they spin, like computer fractals do. I was dreaming a black, white and grey fractal when suddenly the center of it opened up like a camera lens, and I could see deeply into the back of it. Behind the fractal stood my very beloved and deceased grandmother (Grammy). I stepped through the lens opening and hugged her, and I asked her a whole bunch of questions. Relevant to our discussion, I asked her "So Gram, this whole abortion thing: death, not-death, or something totally different?" To which she replied "Totally different. But don't worry about it." Soon after, the lens closed up and I was back on the other side of the thing.
Dreams are all so individual. Freud called them "the royal road to the unconscious." There's a part of me which thinks that dreams just reflect the unconscious processing of the brain, such that the brain is able to stay asleep. There's a part of me which thinks that dreams tap into the universal unconscious, the collective unconscious, like Jung talks about.. And there's part of me which really likes to think my Gram came for a visit. Who knows?
What do you make of it?
Not cheap enough. Have you seen the price of Trojans lately? It really adds up. I have a friend who can only afford the really cheap condoms (same ones they usually give out in clinics). Well, those things don't work worth a darn. They break easily. In fact, most birth control effectiveness lists make a distinction between cheap and expensive condoms. Anyways, I've given her one of my Plan-B pills at least once because she can not afford another kid.
As for me, I'm on Yasmin. That costs me at least $25 a month with insurance picking up the rest. Plus we use Trojans since I'm not taking any chances. And we have to use Trojans because the cheap ones, um, don't fit. $25 plus condoms adds up. That's $300 a year! Fortunately, my husband makes enough money to keep us comfortably in debt (as oppose to uncomfortably like most my friends). Still, it's hard to watch that money go bye-bye. Cheaper than having kids, though.
As for the "free" health care in the U.S., I've known plenty of people who have been on it or tried to get on it. That and other govt. programs aren't enough to sustain a person alone, nor were they meant to. Unfortunately, the first time they get a steady minimum wage job they are suddenly making too much to qualify for all the govt. programs, but not making enough to cover basic expenses.
Imagine trying to support yourself and one child on minimum wage with no health benefits.
I agree with you 100% Jenna, about the state of health care in this country. "free" healthcare? Pah. I tried applying for this supposed "free" healthcare a few years ago when my family was in dire need, and they determined we made "too much money". We were struggling badly (routinely 2-3 months behind on the house payment, car payment, utilities, etc.) and yet we made "too much money". So someone who is barely living paycheck to paycheck must also take on the burden of healthcare expenses. It's pointless. The only ones who get free healthcare are those who understand how to take advantage of the system - and you almost have to be TAUGHT how to do that. It's a labyrinth.
Here in the US have to pay for EVERYTHING. The emergency room personel can't actually turn you away in an emergency situation if you can't pay, but they'll bill the socks off of you. In some states, if you can't pay for your healthcare bills the state can actually lien your home. If you are conscious when you enter a hospital emergency room, the first stop is to the nice lady who tells you to go sit in the waiting room and fill out some forms. The next stop, before you even get to see a doctor or even the lowly intern, is to the nice lady who takes all of your insurance information.
If you go to hospital to have a baby does it cost yoiu as a public patient?
When I had my baby, I went public, as the gap for it would have been thousands. I ended up having several top up epidurals ($$$) an emergency cesarean, loads of drugs cos the epidural did not work. I was public and it did not cost me a cent. If I had used my private health insurance it would have sent us broke!!
The bill? $700
Having a baby can cost around $10,000 here in the US if everything goes smoothly.
I still want to cry seeing this picture.
But this is what she looks like now. :bowdown:
I don't want you to think that I'm ripping on you - because I'm not.
But you have made statements about abortion being a woman's choice (which ultimately it is) or if a woman chooses to carry the child to term and then give it up for adoption. But then you spoke of the fear of giving a child up for adoption and fearing that the child might not go to a good home?
I'm confused. Is death better for the child than adopting parents that might not be perfect? Isn't death a harsher sentence for the infant than a hard life?
Also, with this next statement, please don't think I'm condoning abuse in any form or fashion. But, even people who have been abused in their lives - do they wish they'd never been born? Or have they been able to move on in life and gain happiness or even just be glad they've been able to experience life and the good things it can bring - rather than just never being?
Michael
I'm not sure if death is harsher than a particularly hard life. It's hard to compare because we really don't know what death entails. Even if it's just non-existence, I don't think I could make a value judgement about that.
My main point was not to say that death is better than other options, but rather just to present the mother's side because it is a complex situation and sometimes I don't feel that some people that are 100% pro-life understand the kind of situations a mother might be in. Women who have abortions are often talked about as if they are sluts, lazy, heartless, even blood thirsty killers. For this reason, many women who've had abortions never tell anyone and I think that's sad for any woman to have to carry a secret like that when she needs the emotional support of friends and family. That's why I think we should all try to at least consider where they are coming from. It's not an easy decision.
BTW, no hard feelings. I like a good discussion and that means hearing opposing sides. Personally, I'm by no means 100% on either side of the debate. I do, however, have a habit of being the "Devil's Advocate" in these types of debates. So I'm definitely used to people's objections
I've been thinking about death a lot lately which has kind of got me down. Obviously, I can't avoid death and I won't know what it even entails until I get there (if then). I probably will just cease to be, at least as I define myself. The thought of non-existence is very scary to me, but I've been thinking that if I must die, then perhaps I should try to find good in it. Things were so much easier when I thought I was going to go sing with the angels for eternity