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A kindred spirit! I find myself being the Devil's Advocate if for no other reason - just to argue the other side of the debate
True, since we don't know what death entails - we all might be getting ripped off hanging around here. But, on the flip side - even a hard life has man beautiful things in it a person can enjoy. Which, if they're aborted - no way for them to find out.
You know what's pretty tough too? Being a male who is in a relationship and not having a say so regarding whether or not you get or don't get to have your child. I've had that happen where I've been in a relationship - I wanted the child. The mother didn't. Very difficult to have something like "life" happen in your existance and have someone else take it away from you.
What scares me when faced with these subjects, is that I wonder if it isn't almost as important how you treat, support, and judge the individuals who are facing these situations, as the decsision the person eventually makes? Something as simple as stating the "rightness" or "wrongness" of possibly the most difficult and confusing decision in a persons life, may cause that person an undue burden or add to their confusion about the situation. Especially when the solution is not a clear black or white, yes or no, or true or false one. That could lead to them making decisions based on others opinions, rather than their own intuition and heart-felt intention. This may possibly lead them to regrets and anger at a later point in time. It may also lead to feelings of guilt or responsibility on the part of the person who offered the opinion, but maybe did not intend it as advice. None of these being conducive to waking up. So usually I don't offer an opinion on a subject like this, but prefer to say something like, "this is clearly a difficult subject on which to have an opinion, which is correct in all circumstances. Clearly, the persons intention will determine the significance of the event in their life, and I can only offer up my most heart-felt empathy for the difficult situation they are facing and pray that the decision they make is the right one for them." I am finding that the older I get, and the more books on Buddhism I read, the less "safe" I feel about speaking because I am afraid of where inside me the intention is coming from (for instance I have rewritten this post about nine times). Does the post sound judgemental? Will it confuse anyone or make them feel negatively? Does it have hints of my own person bias that I have yet to identify? Where does my need to respond to it come from in the first place? Or maybe it is all one big cop-out on my part
I didn't think that anything you had written was too judgemental. I think you made some really good points.
I think that, sometimes, debating for debates sake can be kind of weak if there is no sharing of knowledge or ideas. If there is a sharing of knowledge and ideas - it can be very beneficial.
Welcome takingitdownanotch. I just had a thought about your post. Let's say you say something on any subject. Now here I am or anyone for that matter reading your post. Let's say you mean one thing in your post but the person reads your post differently but it helps that person all the same. Of course it could backfire and make them feel worse. The point is your intention. Don't be afraid to say what's going on in you because you might make all the difference in someone's line of thinking. From my personal experience reading szome of the member's posts here have helped me to see things differently. If I disagree I say so. Then someone else will tell me something else and I may or may not change my thought process. We all need more views. We do not always see the whole picture. One person is always looking at a different part of the picture than another. We need to sometimes get together to describe what we have seen.
Takingitdownanotch...
Don't fall prey to the politically correct position that we shouldnt be judgmental. A culture is at least partially defined by its definition of right and wrong.
In practicing buddhism we strive for "right intention" etc. For there to be a "right" there must be a "wrong" to compare it to.
Please be careful about comparing wordly opinions about a subject with what is in line with the Dhamma. Sometimes we may overlook the dangers lurking in our deepest held beliefs. In the teachings of the Buddha there is no thing such as "politically correct" or "politically incorrect". There is only Dhamma (Truth). As Ajahn Boowa once said,
"Those who bare their teeth and boast that they are arguing to
champion a just cause are, without exception, already badly defeated.
No one is right, for arguing is always wrong. Just like two
boxers slugging it out in the ring: both the winner and the loser
come away battered and bruised. Who can take pride in that? It’s
not something to boast about. Arguing fosters bitterness and resentment
in both parties. It becomes a battle of views and opinions,
an attempt to glorify oneself that degenerates into a shouting
match where no one listens to reason."
May I also add that being careful of where your intentions come from is a wise thing to do. Where indeed are our intentions born? Is it out of compassion? Is it more so out of conceit? Is it pride in a view? Is it none of these? Is it all at once? Is it out of an opinion? Is it out of lust? Is it born of becoming? Is it born from truth? For as much as it may arise out of wisdom, it can even more so arise out of avijja. In our current state we may not know for sure. The precepts are our restraint which protects us from these things we do not know or understand in terms of the Dhamma. It is our shield. Without this shield wisdom is not free to arise. We must restrain our speech, our thoughts, and our actions until we can be positive we know where they come from.
In Buddhism it is true we are to cultivate the good, but only to a point. There is a time when we must see with wisdom that to be truly a follower of the Buddha we must go beyond good and evil, right and wrong. The other shore cannot be reached with all of these burdens on our shoulders. We will surely drown in the deep waters of samsara.
The Dhammapada
Chapter 25. The Bhikkhu
(Not only does it mean monk but as Ajahn Chah says, "Bhikkhu -- one who sees the danger of Samsara."
Restraint of the eyes is good. So is restraint of the ears. Restraint of the nose is good, and so is restraint of the palate. 360
Restraint of the body is good. So is restraint of speech. Restraint of mind is good, and so is restraint in everything. The bhikkhu who is restrained in everything, is freed from all suffering. 361
Restrained of hand, restrained of foot, restrained of speech and restrained in his highest faculty, with his joy turned inwards, his mind still, alone and contented -- that is what they call a bhikkhu. 362
When a bhikkhu is restrained of tongue, quotes wise sayings, and is peaceful, expounding both letter and spirit -- his speech is good to hear. 363
With joy in the Teaching, delighting in the Teaching, and pondering over the Teaching, the bhikkhu who remembers the Teaching does not fall away from the Teaching. 364
One should not underestimate what one has got, and one should not live envying others. A bhikkhu who envies others does not achieve stillness of mind in meditation. 365
Even if he has only received a little, if a bhikkhu does not look down on what he has received, even the devas praise him, pure of life and determined as he is. 366
When a man is without self-identification with any object or idea, and does not grieve for what does not exist -- that is what is called a bhikkhu. 367
The bhikkhu who lives full of goodwill, with faith in the religion of the Buddha -- he will reach the place of peace, the satisfaction of stilling the functions of the mind. 368
Empty the boat, bhikkhu. Empty it will sail lightly for you. When you have cut away desire and aversion, you will come to nirvana as a result. 369
Cut away the five (lower fetters), abandon the five (remaining fetters), and then develop the five (faculties). The bhikkhu who has transcended the five fetters is said to be "crossed over the flood". 370
Meditate, bhikkhu, don't be careless, don't let your mind take pleasure in the senses. Don't have to swallow the iron ball for being careless. Don't have to cry out, "This is terrible" as you burn. 371
There is no meditation without wisdom, and there is no wisdom without meditation. When a man has both meditation and wisdom, he is indeed close to nirvana. 372
When he has gone off to a lonely building, the bhikkhu whose mind is at peace experiences a more than human joy, when he recognises the supreme Truth. 373
Whenever he meditates on the rise and fall of the constituent elements of existence, he experiences joy and rapture. It is immortality for men of discrimination. 374
Therefore in this religion, this is what comes first for a wise bhikkhu -- guarding of the senses, contentment, and discipline in accordance with the rules of the Order. He should cultivate friends of good character, of pure behaviour and resolute. He should be friendly in his manner, and well-behaved. As a result he will experience great joy, and put an end to suffering. 375, 376
In the same way that the jasmine drops its withered flowers, you too should discard desire and aversion, bhikkhus. 377
Peaceful of body, peaceful of speech and with his mind thoroughly stilled, the bhikkhu who has rid himself of attachment to the world -- is called "at peace". 378
You should encourage yourself, yourself. You should restrain yourself, yourself. When you are self-protected like that, you will live happily as a bhikkhu. 379
One is one's own guard. What other guard could one have? One is one's own destiny. Therefore one should train oneself, like a merchant does a thoroughbred horse. 380
The bhikkhu who experiences great joy, and has faith in the religion of the Buddha, will attain the place of peace, the satisfaction of stilling the functions of the mind. 381
I think I would have to disagree with you here. isn't one of the Buddhist learnings that there is no "right" or "wrong" or "good" or "bad" because we're implying dualism? I thought that instead creating dualism in this manner - one is just supposed to view things as "this is appropriate", "this works" or "this is in sync with Reality" - as in "something that is conducive to awakening" rather than something that can be compared to as being wrong.
Am I thinking in a manner that is not conducive to awakening?
The balance, here, is between nihilism and eternalism. The former says there is no right and wrong but that all is pragmatic. The latter says that there are rules which are the very definitions of right and wrong.
Whilst both have elements of truth, neither is the Dhamma. None of the skillful means revealed by the Buddha in the Noble Eightfold Path exists alone. They are a matrix, a network. As thich Nhat Hanh says
Arya ashtangika marga ("a noble path of eight limbs") suggests the interbeing nature of these eight elements of the path. Each limb contains the other seven.
This is the touchstone by which we assess mind, body and action. It is also the map by which we strive to find a way through the labyrinth of samsara and by which we may be able to find, meet and, perhaps, learn, teach, help or be helped by others.
It is true that the Noble Eightfold Path does not lay down absolutes. It may even be advisable to see them as irrelevant. This, however, ignores the reality that the Path is supported by and points us towards compassion. Compassion appears, to the opened eye, as the non-contingent absolute.
Buddhist pragmatism is best described in the story of the Buddha's parinibbana:
Thus have I heard:
A young monk called Subhadda presented himself with a question for the Buddha. The Tathagata was now 80 years old and near to death. Subhadda asked, "World-Honoured One, are other religious teachers enlightened?"
The Buddha sighed. If only the young could ask useful questions! But a skillful answer to an unskillful question can change a life, so the Buddha replied, "Subhadda, it is really not important if they are enlightened or not. What matters is: do you want to be free? If you do, practice the Noble Eightfold Path. Wherever the Noble Eighfold Path is practised, joy, peace and insight are there." As in his first sermon, in the Deer Park, so in his last, the Wish-Fulfilling Jewel spoke of the Noble Eightfold Path as the way of the enlightened.
(adapted from Mahaparinibbana Sutta, Digha Nikaya 16.)
buddhafoot...
I agree that buddhist teaching warns us about duality but I think the warning is that one should be aware of the judgements the mind makes rather than ignore them. While "right" and "wrong" exist only in our minds, they are illusions that define our decisions. Everyone's definitions differ somewhat and when someone's definitions are completely out of whack with what is the norm in a given society then they are "defined" as "outcasts", "weirdos", or "criminals".
Unfortunately, few people on this planet live by buddhist-thought. Therefore, we have "outcasts", "weirdos", and "criminals".
Someone who practices buddhist thought would not run through a shopping-mall with a machinegun blowing everyone away for fun. People who do this are JUDGED to be "outcasts", "weirdos", and "criminals". Anyone who is afraid to judge this person as "wrong" is utterly impotent.
If everyone on the planet practiced buddhist thought then (and only then) could we all completely let go of the duality of "right and wrong". As long as one single person on the planet does not act from emptiness then duality will exist in the mind of all. When everyone is on the same page in emptiness, perhaps dukkha will POOF! disappear.
Just a thought.
Ive read everybodies messages in response to this question and I am really down. Dont know why .... not everybodies comments were negative or upsetting.
Ive had an abortion ... suppose thats why I found this question both interesting and very personally close to the bone.
Let me just say, I agree with everyone it is a very personal issue so while I have my experiences I certainly dont want you to think I am pushing any agenda here. I can only give a deeply personal response to an issue that is extremely difficult for everybody.
I feel a need to be honest and hope that my own experience can help others.
I decided to have an abortion primarily due to a very real fear that I could not bring a child up with out emotionally or physically damaging it. I was also petrified of my mothers response to a pregnancy and really couldn't imagine in a million years telling her about it. I knew when I got pregnant I disappear and have the baby somewhere because I was in University and would have to answer too many questions about my dropping out. Also would have to go abroad and it would have been practically impossible to not come home for 9 months. Somebody in my family would have wanted to visit me if I had made up a story about going to see the world.
The other problem is when you are pregnant and terrified and physically sick as I was you have a very small time frame to make your decisions. Ontop of which abortion is illegal in Ireland and I had to travel to the UK to carry out the abortion. Also, this was in pre-internet days when finding information was not only difficult but nearly or judged to be illegal in this country.
So for so many reasons but mostly I felt I didn't have the ability emotionally to bring up a child in a nurtured enviornment with little or no money and no support I decided to have an abortion.
For many people it is not an issue that is taken lightly and in my case it is a shadow that is always on my mind. I have nieces and nephews, friends who have babies and it is always a compare and contrast issue .... ie:"If I hadn't had the abortion my baby would be aged 7,8,9,10 ... by now" and so on. For the rest of my life every friend and relatives birth will be an issue. Those baby scan's that proud future parents show are beyond painful, because I know, like most women, that my baby looked like that or would have if the pregnancy continued.
Every relationship with a man I have it becaomes an issue, becuase sooner or later the "baby" conversation happens and you have to deal with the guilt of having murdered a baby but also as to if you should lie about it also and what about all those people who you love who have very personal views on abortion, would they love you less if they knew the truth. Every opinion voiced on this issue becomes almost a personal criticim, who am I to say that the anti-abortionists aren't completly right and that I am a murderer?
Believe me for sombody who was and is every day there on the subject of abortion it is not something which a woman who takes that decicision can very easily deal with on any level because all those issues which have been raised on the bulletin board are really issues in my head most of the time and if they are not in the forefront of your mind everyday you also feel guilty beause its almost like you have diminished this terrrible thing you have done.
I was emotionally and physically abused by my mother and have had alot of problems as a result. My mother is a great woman who is very strong, extrodinarily intelligent and very loving to some people however she was very badly abused as a child and I believe that while she really did her best to bring me up some of the terrible things she suffered as a child where the ways she learnt to deal with a children and so I too got a bit of what she suffered. This was really not her intention and |I am really sure she does on some level love me, but how could I do that to a child. I really was worried that I would physically hurt or emotionally hurt a child. I still have that fear and have not and probably wont have any children. You may see this as an excuse or a justification but believe me there is no justification in MY OWN head for my abortion.
Back to the Religious end of this discussion, Having being brought up as a Catholic, there is no way no how, ever any justification for abortion in the Catholic church. Abortion and Buddhism was a question which was obviously always on my mind, but one I was afraid to ask. :et me just say this to all of you who haven't been there ... be glad that you do not have to really know the answers to these questions. I wish I could not know but at some stage I will, if it's hell as the Catholics may predict or bad Karma for eternities...... I will find out some day!
There is no hell. Maybe you've already "served" your share of bad karma (I don't believe in karma). Remember: Worrying about something you cannot change makes one problem into two problems.
Am I a fan of abortion? No. But you seem to have a clear head in regards to why your choices were made so you owe it to yourself to let it go (easy for me to say, I know).
There is nothing that anyone can say that fills the hole left by the loss. I hope that you find love and support.
There are times when, in the darkest moments, all I can hang onto are the words that Mother Julian heard: "All will be well and all will be well and all manner of things will be well". And this, even when the world appears to be a place of infinite pain.
Thanks for the positive messages and thanks especially to those who may have not felt positive towards what I said but didn't slam me for my thoughts.
I had a rotten day yesterday when I read the thread and today I really didnt want to check the boards but having done so Ive found consolation in what ye have said.
Sorry my message wasn't very coherant but I was upset typing it. Thanks again all!
One of the great joys of Buddhism, for me, is that there is no notion of punishment and reward.
Nothing so puzzled me, when I became a Christian, as the notion of 'sin'. Looking back, I can laugh at my naivety. I actually took the words of Jesus about 'salvation', forgiveness and transformation seriously. And I still do!
On the other side, I had a friend (now moved away) who had an abortion and she swore it was one of the simplest decisions in her life and that she has had no guilt about it whatsoever. Of course, she could just have been saying that, but I do believe her. She had it more than a few years ago, so she's definitely has had time for regrets to form - and she's definitely a deep thinker type. Of course, this is just me presenting other views. I don't expect to change anyone's opinion on the matter with this post. What I think is really important is that women consider how they themselves will feel after the abortion emotionally - at least, as best as they can. Also, I don't think certain people in society should try so hard to make women feel even more guilty about abortions.
Whilst Buddhism has come a long way in 2500 years, its roots are still apparent. The Vedas speak about the world being a "field of action": we cannot be alive without taking action. And each action is, because dependent, is freighted with karma. An abortion is an outcome of multiple actions and decisions which stretch back through all the ages.
The clutching at "good" karma is as unproductive as "bad" because each action must also evoke its opposite. There is no "up" without "down", "left" without "right".
For some schools, there is much emphasis on "neutral" karmic action, whereas others focus on spontaneity in the Taoist sense of wu-wei.
Comments
True, since we don't know what death entails - we all might be getting ripped off hanging around here. But, on the flip side - even a hard life has man beautiful things in it a person can enjoy. Which, if they're aborted - no way for them to find out.
You know what's pretty tough too? Being a male who is in a relationship and not having a say so regarding whether or not you get or don't get to have your child. I've had that happen where I've been in a relationship - I wanted the child. The mother didn't. Very difficult to have something like "life" happen in your existance and have someone else take it away from you.
Michael
I didn't think that anything you had written was too judgemental. I think you made some really good points.
I think that, sometimes, debating for debates sake can be kind of weak if there is no sharing of knowledge or ideas. If there is a sharing of knowledge and ideas - it can be very beneficial.
Michael
Don't fall prey to the politically correct position that we shouldnt be judgmental. A culture is at least partially defined by its definition of right and wrong.
In practicing buddhism we strive for "right intention" etc. For there to be a "right" there must be a "wrong" to compare it to.
"Those who bare their teeth and boast that they are arguing to
champion a just cause are, without exception, already badly defeated.
No one is right, for arguing is always wrong. Just like two
boxers slugging it out in the ring: both the winner and the loser
come away battered and bruised. Who can take pride in that? It’s
not something to boast about. Arguing fosters bitterness and resentment
in both parties. It becomes a battle of views and opinions,
an attempt to glorify oneself that degenerates into a shouting
match where no one listens to reason."
May I also add that being careful of where your intentions come from is a wise thing to do. Where indeed are our intentions born? Is it out of compassion? Is it more so out of conceit? Is it pride in a view? Is it none of these? Is it all at once? Is it out of an opinion? Is it out of lust? Is it born of becoming? Is it born from truth? For as much as it may arise out of wisdom, it can even more so arise out of avijja. In our current state we may not know for sure. The precepts are our restraint which protects us from these things we do not know or understand in terms of the Dhamma. It is our shield. Without this shield wisdom is not free to arise. We must restrain our speech, our thoughts, and our actions until we can be positive we know where they come from.
In Buddhism it is true we are to cultivate the good, but only to a point. There is a time when we must see with wisdom that to be truly a follower of the Buddha we must go beyond good and evil, right and wrong. The other shore cannot be reached with all of these burdens on our shoulders. We will surely drown in the deep waters of samsara.
The Dhammapada
Chapter 25. The Bhikkhu
(Not only does it mean monk but as Ajahn Chah says, "Bhikkhu -- one who sees the danger of Samsara."
Restraint of the eyes is good. So is restraint of the ears. Restraint of the nose is good, and so is restraint of the palate. 360
Restraint of the body is good. So is restraint of speech. Restraint of mind is good, and so is restraint in everything. The bhikkhu who is restrained in everything, is freed from all suffering. 361
Restrained of hand, restrained of foot, restrained of speech and restrained in his highest faculty, with his joy turned inwards, his mind still, alone and contented -- that is what they call a bhikkhu. 362
When a bhikkhu is restrained of tongue, quotes wise sayings, and is peaceful, expounding both letter and spirit -- his speech is good to hear. 363
With joy in the Teaching, delighting in the Teaching, and pondering over the Teaching, the bhikkhu who remembers the Teaching does not fall away from the Teaching. 364
One should not underestimate what one has got, and one should not live envying others. A bhikkhu who envies others does not achieve stillness of mind in meditation. 365
Even if he has only received a little, if a bhikkhu does not look down on what he has received, even the devas praise him, pure of life and determined as he is. 366
When a man is without self-identification with any object or idea, and does not grieve for what does not exist -- that is what is called a bhikkhu. 367
The bhikkhu who lives full of goodwill, with faith in the religion of the Buddha -- he will reach the place of peace, the satisfaction of stilling the functions of the mind. 368
Empty the boat, bhikkhu. Empty it will sail lightly for you. When you have cut away desire and aversion, you will come to nirvana as a result. 369
Cut away the five (lower fetters), abandon the five (remaining fetters), and then develop the five (faculties). The bhikkhu who has transcended the five fetters is said to be "crossed over the flood". 370
Meditate, bhikkhu, don't be careless, don't let your mind take pleasure in the senses. Don't have to swallow the iron ball for being careless. Don't have to cry out, "This is terrible" as you burn. 371
There is no meditation without wisdom, and there is no wisdom without meditation. When a man has both meditation and wisdom, he is indeed close to nirvana. 372
When he has gone off to a lonely building, the bhikkhu whose mind is at peace experiences a more than human joy, when he recognises the supreme Truth. 373
Whenever he meditates on the rise and fall of the constituent elements of existence, he experiences joy and rapture. It is immortality for men of discrimination. 374
Therefore in this religion, this is what comes first for a wise bhikkhu -- guarding of the senses, contentment, and discipline in accordance with the rules of the Order. He should cultivate friends of good character, of pure behaviour and resolute. He should be friendly in his manner, and well-behaved. As a result he will experience great joy, and put an end to suffering. 375, 376
In the same way that the jasmine drops its withered flowers, you too should discard desire and aversion, bhikkhus. 377
Peaceful of body, peaceful of speech and with his mind thoroughly stilled, the bhikkhu who has rid himself of attachment to the world -- is called "at peace". 378
You should encourage yourself, yourself. You should restrain yourself, yourself. When you are self-protected like that, you will live happily as a bhikkhu. 379
One is one's own guard. What other guard could one have? One is one's own destiny. Therefore one should train oneself, like a merchant does a thoroughbred horse. 380
The bhikkhu who experiences great joy, and has faith in the religion of the Buddha, will attain the place of peace, the satisfaction of stilling the functions of the mind. 381
I think I would have to disagree with you here. isn't one of the Buddhist learnings that there is no "right" or "wrong" or "good" or "bad" because we're implying dualism? I thought that instead creating dualism in this manner - one is just supposed to view things as "this is appropriate", "this works" or "this is in sync with Reality" - as in "something that is conducive to awakening" rather than something that can be compared to as being wrong.
Am I thinking in a manner that is not conducive to awakening?
Michael
Whilst both have elements of truth, neither is the Dhamma. None of the skillful means revealed by the Buddha in the Noble Eightfold Path exists alone. They are a matrix, a network. As thich Nhat Hanh says
This is the touchstone by which we assess mind, body and action. It is also the map by which we strive to find a way through the labyrinth of samsara and by which we may be able to find, meet and, perhaps, learn, teach, help or be helped by others.
It is true that the Noble Eightfold Path does not lay down absolutes. It may even be advisable to see them as irrelevant. This, however, ignores the reality that the Path is supported by and points us towards compassion. Compassion appears, to the opened eye, as the non-contingent absolute.
Buddhist pragmatism is best described in the story of the Buddha's parinibbana:
Thus have I heard:
A young monk called Subhadda presented himself with a question for the Buddha. The Tathagata was now 80 years old and near to death. Subhadda asked, "World-Honoured One, are other religious teachers enlightened?"
The Buddha sighed. If only the young could ask useful questions! But a skillful answer to an unskillful question can change a life, so the Buddha replied, "Subhadda, it is really not important if they are enlightened or not. What matters is: do you want to be free? If you do, practice the Noble Eightfold Path. Wherever the Noble Eighfold Path is practised, joy, peace and insight are there." As in his first sermon, in the Deer Park, so in his last, the Wish-Fulfilling Jewel spoke of the Noble Eightfold Path as the way of the enlightened.
(adapted from Mahaparinibbana Sutta, Digha Nikaya 16.)
I agree that buddhist teaching warns us about duality but I think the warning is that one should be aware of the judgements the mind makes rather than ignore them. While "right" and "wrong" exist only in our minds, they are illusions that define our decisions. Everyone's definitions differ somewhat and when someone's definitions are completely out of whack with what is the norm in a given society then they are "defined" as "outcasts", "weirdos", or "criminals".
Unfortunately, few people on this planet live by buddhist-thought. Therefore, we have "outcasts", "weirdos", and "criminals".
Someone who practices buddhist thought would not run through a shopping-mall with a machinegun blowing everyone away for fun. People who do this are JUDGED to be "outcasts", "weirdos", and "criminals". Anyone who is afraid to judge this person as "wrong" is utterly impotent.
If everyone on the planet practiced buddhist thought then (and only then) could we all completely let go of the duality of "right and wrong". As long as one single person on the planet does not act from emptiness then duality will exist in the mind of all. When everyone is on the same page in emptiness, perhaps dukkha will POOF! disappear.
Just a thought.
Ive had an abortion ... suppose thats why I found this question both interesting and very personally close to the bone.
Let me just say, I agree with everyone it is a very personal issue so while I have my experiences I certainly dont want you to think I am pushing any agenda here. I can only give a deeply personal response to an issue that is extremely difficult for everybody.
I feel a need to be honest and hope that my own experience can help others.
I decided to have an abortion primarily due to a very real fear that I could not bring a child up with out emotionally or physically damaging it. I was also petrified of my mothers response to a pregnancy and really couldn't imagine in a million years telling her about it. I knew when I got pregnant I disappear and have the baby somewhere because I was in University and would have to answer too many questions about my dropping out. Also would have to go abroad and it would have been practically impossible to not come home for 9 months. Somebody in my family would have wanted to visit me if I had made up a story about going to see the world.
The other problem is when you are pregnant and terrified and physically sick as I was you have a very small time frame to make your decisions. Ontop of which abortion is illegal in Ireland and I had to travel to the UK to carry out the abortion. Also, this was in pre-internet days when finding information was not only difficult but nearly or judged to be illegal in this country.
So for so many reasons but mostly I felt I didn't have the ability emotionally to bring up a child in a nurtured enviornment with little or no money and no support I decided to have an abortion.
For many people it is not an issue that is taken lightly and in my case it is a shadow that is always on my mind. I have nieces and nephews, friends who have babies and it is always a compare and contrast issue .... ie:"If I hadn't had the abortion my baby would be aged 7,8,9,10 ... by now" and so on. For the rest of my life every friend and relatives birth will be an issue. Those baby scan's that proud future parents show are beyond painful, because I know, like most women, that my baby looked like that or would have if the pregnancy continued.
Every relationship with a man I have it becaomes an issue, becuase sooner or later the "baby" conversation happens and you have to deal with the guilt of having murdered a baby but also as to if you should lie about it also and what about all those people who you love who have very personal views on abortion, would they love you less if they knew the truth. Every opinion voiced on this issue becomes almost a personal criticim, who am I to say that the anti-abortionists aren't completly right and that I am a murderer?
Believe me for sombody who was and is every day there on the subject of abortion it is not something which a woman who takes that decicision can very easily deal with on any level because all those issues which have been raised on the bulletin board are really issues in my head most of the time and if they are not in the forefront of your mind everyday you also feel guilty beause its almost like you have diminished this terrrible thing you have done.
I was emotionally and physically abused by my mother and have had alot of problems as a result. My mother is a great woman who is very strong, extrodinarily intelligent and very loving to some people however she was very badly abused as a child and I believe that while she really did her best to bring me up some of the terrible things she suffered as a child where the ways she learnt to deal with a children and so I too got a bit of what she suffered. This was really not her intention and |I am really sure she does on some level love me, but how could I do that to a child. I really was worried that I would physically hurt or emotionally hurt a child. I still have that fear and have not and probably wont have any children. You may see this as an excuse or a justification but believe me there is no justification in MY OWN head for my abortion.
Back to the Religious end of this discussion, Having being brought up as a Catholic, there is no way no how, ever any justification for abortion in the Catholic church. Abortion and Buddhism was a question which was obviously always on my mind, but one I was afraid to ask. :et me just say this to all of you who haven't been there ... be glad that you do not have to really know the answers to these questions. I wish I could not know but at some stage I will, if it's hell as the Catholics may predict or bad Karma for eternities...... I will find out some day!
Am I a fan of abortion? No. But you seem to have a clear head in regards to why your choices were made so you owe it to yourself to let it go (easy for me to say, I know).
My heart goes out to you.
There is nothing that anyone can say that fills the hole left by the loss. I hope that you find love and support.
There are times when, in the darkest moments, all I can hang onto are the words that Mother Julian heard: "All will be well and all will be well and all manner of things will be well". And this, even when the world appears to be a place of infinite pain.
I had a rotten day yesterday when I read the thread and today I really didnt want to check the boards but having done so Ive found consolation in what ye have said.
Sorry my message wasn't very coherant but I was upset typing it. Thanks again all!
Nothing so puzzled me, when I became a Christian, as the notion of 'sin'. Looking back, I can laugh at my naivety. I actually took the words of Jesus about 'salvation', forgiveness and transformation seriously. And I still do!
The clutching at "good" karma is as unproductive as "bad" because each action must also evoke its opposite. There is no "up" without "down", "left" without "right".
For some schools, there is much emphasis on "neutral" karmic action, whereas others focus on spontaneity in the Taoist sense of wu-wei.