six elements and its movement

upekka

four elements (earth, water, fire and air) in space (another element) change because of the change of consciousness (another element)

(food for thought, not for over-thinking but to observe through own six sense bases)

pegembara

The six sense objects are sights, sounds, smells, taste, tactile sensations and mind objects.

The 4 elements belong to the 4th group("touch/temperature") above in terms of direct experience, doesn't it?

DairyLama

@upekka said:> four elements (earth, water, fire and air) in space (another element) change because of the change of consciousness (another element)

Could you explain this further?

The six elements are described in this sutta:: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html

upekka

see your post (consciousness), didn't let go of it, in other words hold on to it (another consciousnes) and typing an answer (more consciousnesses) movement of fingers (change four element of the body/ internal four elements) in space
which make an effect on external four elements in space

upekka

after we understand what is happening with six sensory bases,

what remain is to understand through six sensory bases which can be called practising the 'feelings in and of themselves'? because by this time we know everything is a mirage
and
because everything we experience comes back to the body as we were discussing in another thread related to pain?

jumping over 'that fence' is what we have to do?

@pegembara, @SpinyNorman, @namarupa and other members, your explanation will be much appreciated

thanks in advance

pegembara

The Chachakka Sutta basically gives the lay out of the path from true understanding of how the "world" is build via the six sense bases.

Vinnana/namarupa paccaya salayatana --->phassa ---->vedana ---->tanha

The description is so analytical and dry. Like an experiment using the six senses and their objects as tools.

The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known. The six external media should be known. The six classes of consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six classes of craving should be known.

Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving.

The default view of the unenlightened beings who be like this. I see, I hear, I taste, I smell, I feel, I think. I want/hate ...

"This, monks, is the path of practice leading to self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.'

The correct practice is described.

"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'

The crux of the matter lie with feelings or rather how one has to avoid getting pulled/pushed by them.

"Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession gets obsessed. That a person — without abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, without abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, without uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, without abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing isn't possible.

If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat one's breast or become distraught, then one's resistance obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, & escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession doesn't get obsessed. That a person — through abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing is possible.

What is this clear knowing(sati sampajanna)?

The Pali word for awareness is sampajañña. In the suttas it is frequently linked with mindfulness (sati) in the compound sati-sampajañña, mindfulness and awareness. In the Satipatthana Sutta, awareness (of bodily actions) is included in the section on mindfulness of the body, so we can perhaps conclude that, while it is not different from mindfulness, awareness is rather more specialised in meaning. Mindfulness is general recollectedness, not being scatterbrained; whereas awareness is more precisely keeping oneself under constant observation, not letting one’s actions (or thoughts, or feelings etc.) pass unnoticed.

http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_heed.htm

Verse 21. Freedom Is Difficult

Heedfulness is the Deathless path,
heedlessness, the path to death.
Those who are heedful do not die,
heedless are like the dead.

Explanation: The path to the Deathless is the perpetual awareness of experience. The deathless does not imply a physical state where the body does not die. When an individual becomes totally aware of the process of experiencing, he is freed from the continuity of existence. Those who do not have that awareness are like the dead, even if they are physically alive.

upekka

thanks @pegembara
i found that Buddha had talked about 18 elements (18 dhathu)
could you kindly provide the relevant sutta or suttas, if you aware of it/them
thanks in advance

pegembara

As far as I know the so called 18 elements are just the six sense organs, six sense objects and six sense consciousness that make up our "world". Anything beyond cannot be known and lies beyond range.

In the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, the Buddha sets about deconstructing the "person" in these terms.

The Blessed One said: "A person has (1) six properties, (2) six media of sensory contact, (3) eighteen considerations, & (4) four determinations. He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace. One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm. This is the summary of the analysis of the six properties.

1. "'A person has six properties.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the six properties: the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, the wind property, the space property, the consciousness property. 'A person has six properties.'

2. "'A person has six media of sensory contact.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the six media of sensory contact: the eye as a medium of sensory contact, the ear... the nose... the tongue... the body... the intellect as a medium of sensory contact. '

3. "'A person has eighteen considerations.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the eighteen considerations: On seeing a form with the eye, one considers a form that can act as a basis for joy, a form that can act as a basis for distress, or a form that can act as a basis for equanimity. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an aroma with the nose... On tasting a flavor with the tongue... On feeling a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, one considers an idea that can act as a basis for joy, an idea that can act as a basis for distress, or an idea that can act as a basis for equanimity. Thus there are six considerations conducive to joy, six conducive to distress, & six conducive to equanimity. 'A person has eighteen considerations.'

4. These are the four determinations: the determination for discernment, the determination for truth, the determination for relinquishment, the determination for calm.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html

upekka

thanks @pegembara
you are an asset

upekka

if i say as follows:

there are six elements
moving of them is natural
knowing (consciousness) of the moving (within space) of four elements (apo, thejo vayo and patavi) is the only thing happening in this world (cosmos)

when we check what is happening within us and around us using our six sense media we can come to the conclusion that there is nothing in this world other than our thoughts/ perceptions about the things that we see, hear, smell, taste, feel and thought

thought/perception have no inherent quality, they are empty
that is why it says 'emptiness is form, form is emptiness'
what we see, hear, smell, taste, feel are forms (four elements and derivatives of them)

so only valid thing in this world (cosmos) is changing of six elements
this change is (aniththa) and it is itself 'dukka' (suffering) and if so who would want to say the change is my or mine or my soul

if we can be mindful about the above whenever a form arises, then there is no craving, so no becoming, so no birth, so no getting old, getting sickness etc.

@pegembara and other members, what do you have to say?

thanks in advance

pegembara

Actually more importantly, what did the Buddha have to say?

"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."

"In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.101.than.html

Of course one can choose to ignore the advice. After all some things are worth suffering for (or are they?)

DairyLama

@pegembara said:
Actually more importantly, what did the Buddha have to say?

"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."

"In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.101.than.html

Of course one can choose to ignore the advice. After all some things are worth suffering for (or are they?)

I think it's worth noting that "letting go" here is a result of insight, and not an act of will or intellectual understanding. Directly observing the transience and conditionality of the elements is one method of developing insight.

"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.
"Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.
"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html

pegembara

Another form of insight is through direct experience.

The sorrows, lamentations,
the many kinds of suffering in the world,
exist dependent on something dear.
They don't exist
when there's nothing dear.
And thus blissful & sorrowless
are those for whom nothing
in the world is anywhere dear.
So one who aspires
to the stainless & sorrowless
shouldn't make anything
dear
in the world
anywhere.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.08.than.html

_ Lord, how could there not be an aberration in my faculties? My dear & beloved little son, my only child, has died. Because of his death, I have no desire to work or to eat. I keep going to the cemetery and crying out, 'Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone, my only little child?'"

"That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear."

"But lord, who would ever think that sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear? Happiness & joy are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear." So the householder, not delighting in the Blessed One's words, rejecting the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat and left._

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.087.than.html

upekka

i have just listened to a dhamma talk given by a Monk

He says even the consciousness is made up of four elements and there are only four elements in the space

in other words, even though we talk of our body and consciousness there are only four elements

only the wisdom faculty could see it and what the ordinary folks have to do is develop their faculties (confidence, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom)

to develop faculties one has to practice mindfulness (four frames of reference)

(this particular dhamma talk is given in sinhala, so no use providing the link here)

it is much appreciated if anyone can provide any relevant sutta/suttas

thanks

i found this in another thread

@seeker242 said:

"And what is the still greater unworldly equanimity? When a taint-free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred and freed of delusion, then there arises equanimity. This is called a 'still greater unworldly equanimity.'

upekka is, by definition, not Dukka

@seeker 242, could you please provide the source, it seems you have taken this from a sutta

thanks