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Some Gripes about Drugs
In America, I have grown up in a culture that is becoming fiercely anti-smoking. Don't smoke. Don't drink. And marijuana is evil. I took all these precepts to heart. I don't smoke drink, or have any desire to smoke marijuana.
But that does not stop me from being troubled by the laws that prohibit drugs, namely marijuana. When I really stopped and took a long hard look at the laws prohibiting marijuana, I found them almost laughable. Essentially, you can receive a draconian sentence for the crime of owning a plant.
I have read that ciggarette smoking is actually more harmful to the body than marijuana smoking. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-05/ats-sfn051706.php
The point is, what somebody does in the privacy of their own home should not be regulated by the government providing that it does not cause danger to another citizen.
If you ban marijuana, why not ban alcohol as well? Surely, alcohol causes far more deaths each year especially from driving accidents. It would seem to make sense that if we banned alcohol, we would be saving countless lives and citizens might behave better.
Novel idea no? But the thing is, we have tried that. The prohibition era of the 1920s. It was quite dangerous to own alcohol back then having to be in constant fear of the government arresting you. Was alcohol the problem in this time? No. It was the laws that were in effect against alcohol. It was only bad to have because it was illegal.
I say that the same applies to marijuana. With it being illegal, you are putting more lives at risk. Consider this. When an item is illegal, it becomes an item on the black market. Since it is more difficult to transport and sell, prices skyrocket. More money gets involved and suddenly gangs and mobs are involved. And that almost always mean more people die.
http://www.aclu.org/drugpolicy/gen/10758pub19950106.html
Here's what the ACLU has to say about it. But please feel free to comment on my little rant here.
But that does not stop me from being troubled by the laws that prohibit drugs, namely marijuana. When I really stopped and took a long hard look at the laws prohibiting marijuana, I found them almost laughable. Essentially, you can receive a draconian sentence for the crime of owning a plant.
I have read that ciggarette smoking is actually more harmful to the body than marijuana smoking. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-05/ats-sfn051706.php
The point is, what somebody does in the privacy of their own home should not be regulated by the government providing that it does not cause danger to another citizen.
If you ban marijuana, why not ban alcohol as well? Surely, alcohol causes far more deaths each year especially from driving accidents. It would seem to make sense that if we banned alcohol, we would be saving countless lives and citizens might behave better.
Novel idea no? But the thing is, we have tried that. The prohibition era of the 1920s. It was quite dangerous to own alcohol back then having to be in constant fear of the government arresting you. Was alcohol the problem in this time? No. It was the laws that were in effect against alcohol. It was only bad to have because it was illegal.
I say that the same applies to marijuana. With it being illegal, you are putting more lives at risk. Consider this. When an item is illegal, it becomes an item on the black market. Since it is more difficult to transport and sell, prices skyrocket. More money gets involved and suddenly gangs and mobs are involved. And that almost always mean more people die.
http://www.aclu.org/drugpolicy/gen/10758pub19950106.html
Here's what the ACLU has to say about it. But please feel free to comment on my little rant here.
0
Comments
What a relief it is to be able to agree with you 100%, KoB. You would have thought that we would have learned something from the disastrous results of Prohibition but it would seem not.
The alleged "war on drugs" is, of course, a "war on drug users" and, in particular, the poorest. Over here, we have heard more and more opinion, particularly from the police, that prohibition and criminalisation are not succeeding in reducing drug use. It really is time for some creative thinking in place of the discredited system we currently have.
I think that all drugs should be decriminalized. I watched a video on Youtube not long ago showing how some people actually drive better under the influence of cannabis.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sLmHL7YznUI
Can't say the same thing about alcohol.
The point I was trying to make is, alcohol does not help anyone, it hurts everyone involved in it. There are no medicinal properties at all, unless you want to debate the anti-oxidant effect of red wine but that's another topic. Medicinal marijuana can help cancer patients, glaucoma patients, it has anti-oxidants in it as well, it helps relieve nausea, relieves pain for people with rheumatoid arthritis, may be valuable in the treatment of brain injuries and diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, treatment of the tremors, muscle spasms and pain of multiple sclerosis and many more POSSIBLE uses. I am not saying it is the greatest thing in the world, but it is natural. It grows from the ground and can be controlled if it were made legal. For thousands of years people have been using it for not only medicinal purposes, but Native American Indians thought it had "spiritual" properties.
I don't agree with legalizing every "drug" because some of them are just as dangerous, if not more so, than alcohol (I've lost two old friends from, heroin alone, in the past 2 years). There still needs to be alot more research done, but we'll all have to see. I'm not condoning drug use at all here folks, don't get me wrong, but there are uses for herbs that grow out of the ground if you catch my drift, and there are alot of people that it helps on a daily basis.
Just drop the subject, y'all make me so derned mad!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, thought police are urgently neeeded here!!!!!
Love,
Nirvana
Well, the thing is. Some people do want to use those drugs. The way I see it, people should be allowed to do whatever they want to do in a just society providing they are not puting other citizens in immediate danger.
I don't understand. This is a pertitent issue in American culture. People are literally dying everyday because the illegal status of drugs. And they are not dying from the drugs themselves. Instead, they are shooting each other for control of the illicit material. Standoffs with police. Life sentences in prison for owning plants.
Some trillions of dollars have been wasted on this 'War on Drugs.' It causes more harm than good and a new solution is desperately needed. I am of the school of thought that says the best solution for this issue is legalization of currently illicit drugs.
The conservative American culture seems hell bent on keeping people from enjoying life and reducing suffering (medical marijuana for instance). It reminds me of an old song from the movie "Duck Soup."
Rufus T. Firefly (Groucho Marx) sings about how he plans to run his new government.
Or tell a dirty joke
And whistling is prohibited
If chewing gum is chewed
The chewer is pursued.
And in the hoosegow hidden...
If any form of pleasure is exhibited
Report to me and it will be prohibited.
I'll put my foot down, so shall it be.
This is the land of the free.
"More Rigid Thinking People would make a straighter world."
People who are adamantly opposed to any kind of drug experimentation and wish to punish any offender are also apt not to be willing to step outside the framework of conventional thinking about most other things.
That's a character flaw, pure and simple
Sorry, KOB, that my attempt at humour failed so badly. But then, lots of people who hold their own opinions so dear are kinda Thought Police in their own little ways.
A kind and gentle exchange of ideas does not usually involve taking apart every word someone has to say and commenting on it as though it was all a big political debate or legal proceeding. That's all so unfriendly. That's not why I spend time on NewBuddhist. I enjoy myself here and garner tidbits and have had avenues of knowledge opened to me.
a serious statement???????
Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but, unlike charity, it should end there.
—Clare Booth Luce
It can be difficult to detect sarcasm in you sometimes. :winkc:
But I wonder, dear Knight of Buddha, from whence does all your real dissatisfaction with things come? I understand you're just in your early teens, but, gracious, lighten up a little: If not for your own good, then just for the sake of those around you.
Wouldn't it be a nice thing to be seen as laid-back, and as a person that kinda just goes with the flow, a friend to anyone? That would be a more Buddhist way of being, it seems to me.
Believe me, I enjoy interacting with the good folks here at NewBuddhist and am interested in what you have to say. I realize that a young man of 14 has a lot more hot-topic buttons that can be pushed than a man my age, but still would hope for more balance (POISE) and some friendly gestures to people with differing ideas. Ultimately ideas come and go, but people remain more or less the same. You gotta love them.
Peace and Joy to You,
Nirvana
Yea sure.
We have the roadside tributes (three of them lining our main street) of the drivers that "drive better" under the influence of cannabis.:skeptical
There is a middle ground in all of this and all we have to do is come to an agreement of what that middle ground is and implement the necessary changes. Perhaps legalizing marijuana and continuing to educate and crack down on impaired driving...?
(Happy Birthday SIS!)
Who knows who is or is not a better driver while intoxicated? is this the assertion made by the person/s under the influence or the innocent/impartial/sober bystander?
cheers!
I was posed with this question last week. I answered it here at....http://www.newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2473 I am happy to answer more questions of this nature.
I am quite laid back in life. I just feel passionate about certain political and social issues. In particular, drugs, war, the Gay Rights movement, and religion.
Oh, I am 17 years old. Not 14. But yes, I do have some hot-topic issues and they are the ones that I have been discussing most recently here.
Not that I espouse drug use of any kind. Just pointing out the ludicrousness of the system.
Palzang
I'm putting this here rather than under Site Discussion under The Sangha, just because I want everyone to know that Palzang is quite alright. It's the sysstem that is/was, well, a bit loopy.
We love you, Palzang! Please, never grow up! And keep us posted, please!
Love,
Nirvy
Grow up?! Whatever for!?!
Palzang
Why did you delete your 142 identical posts?
You NUT!
We still love you, though.
:ot:
:usflag:
Palzang
Palzang
To call a slight hyperbole my gross misstatement of the number of your attempts to post what you had to say, considering the unusual and S-L-O-W connexions, shows what a real Trooper you are.
It's really nice to have people on this site who don't take themselves so derned seriously. When I grow up, if I ever do grow up, I wanna be a decent and sensitive and neat person JUST LIKE YOU, Palzang.
Sincerely,
Nirvy
Palzang
I'd just like to throw in that I think the reason why our classification system is so messed up is because people can't see to seperate the debate over whether using intoxicants is desirable or ethical and what is the most sound governmental policy to reduce harm for all involved. If certain people could get beyond the fear of condoning what they believe to immoral, perhaps they would actually be able to formulate policy that actually helps people. That would be truly moral, imo.
To me, the biggest example of this surrounds the issue of marijuana being a gateway drug. The people who get stuck in the 'not wanting to condone' game use this one as a justification to keep it criminalized. The problem is that the main reason it is a 'gateway drug' is this very fact. This is because of at least 2 reasons that I can see. Firstly, once you cross the line of legality, you are less hesitant to cross it again. Secondly, the fact that it is illegal means that to get it, you are basically required to interact with shady characters & be exposed to other substances. If one could go through legal avenues to obtain it, then this would not be the case. So, decriminalization would largely reduce the 'gateway' effect. Additionally, if officials are truly concerned about their 'war on drugs' then they would realize that this gateway thing works both ways. In other words, this drug is a huge part of their entire business model. It is their 'foot in the door' with a good many people. Declassifying it as an illegal substance would take away a huge source of revenue & cripple their business model. I have my own suspicions that organized crime influence is a large reason it is still illegal, but I don't have a whole lot of facts to back that up.
Anyway, regardless of the morality of using this substance (obviously taking intoxicants is not the good & moral thing to do), the moral thing to do in regards to it's legality is to decriminalize it. I could give a lot of reasons, especially in relation to the buddhist path, not to do it. Personal anecdotes, logic, suttas, etc., but that is beside the point to me. And this is coming from a former hippie-type person.
Just my 3 cents
metta
_/\_
Under the influence is under the influence.
Other than that? I really don't care what people do as long as it doesn't harm themselves or others.
-bf
I am not a big advocate of drugs and alcohol per se. I used both and I suffered the consequences for it. Perhaps those consequences were due to my lack of self-control and not necessarily to the substances themselves; nevertheless, I can see the inherent dangers with indulging in either. Simply put, it is one of the five precepts for a reason—the Buddha was no fool.
That being said, the way that drugs and alcohol are treated today boggles my mind. I cannot understand how people can make tobacco and alcohol "legal" and make an entire industry out it while making a plant that grows naturally "illegal" and then send people to prison for using or even possessing it. I think that this issue is less about morality than it is greed or fear.
Sincerely,
Jason
The whole issue of whether it's a good thing or a bad thing to use drugs or alcohol is an entirely different issue that has nothing at all to do with its legality or illegality. Obviously the best thing is not to use any of it.
Palzang
You forgot the pharma industry. Rumors told me, Prozac abuse is a big business, especially in the US. Mood altering and smart drugs could soon replace the old fashioned evil hedonist tools and if you are lucky, the health insurance even pays for it! It goes like this: It is not a drug, it is a medication. Some people`s credo seems to be "Poison is the cure" and using mood altering drugs mindlessly is the same than using classic drugs.
Oh yes of course, the point I made can fall prey to endless discussions, like "when does abuse start etc", which I won`t join.
Metta
In my year here at the hospital, (I am the hospital chaplain) I have seen more people than I can remember die of tobacco and alcohol related illnesses. These do not include people who died as a result of drunkeness (car accident, shooting, etc), just the people who were killed directly by the substance. And let me tell you, COPD and anoxic alcohol poisoning are tough ways to go.
I have never seen anyone die due to marijuana abuse. I stopped smoking it because it just made me stupid, which is the biggest health problem, IMHO.
As to the other pharmaceuticals, part of what I do is work on the pysch ward, and I am a big fan of "better living through chemistry" for people with certain mental illnesses. The fact is, too many people self medicate, and most self medication tends to end up worse than whatever you had in the beginning. (One of the things I do on the ward is teach meditation, hoping that some might pick that up as a way of self medicating.)
But for someone who is seriously depressed, prozac or other psychotropic drugs can do wonders in the short term. For bipolar and schizophrenic patients, the drugs are often their only lifeline to a seminormal life.
If I had my way, marijuana would be legal, and anyone who smoked would have to pay a very hefty social impact fine, as well as write a note of apology to their loved one everytime they light up.
Oh, and I am an exsmoker, so I do know how hard it is to quit.
Palzang
I've always questioned the efficacy of the "just say no" ideology championed by Nancy Reagan and followed by hard-liners. You have to understand something about addiction and the mind to truly reach someone (or yourself).
Rarely have I ever heard a discussion about the psychological effects of THC (marijuana) where anyone really was able to clearly describe the unique effect this drug has on people. I'm not talking about the physical effects (on your cardiovascular system for one), but on the mind. And no, it's not like alcohol. It's very different.
Most of the common adjectives are: "like different people"; "stupid" or "wasteoid". Please try to get beyond the cliches and understand the allure and the danger of this drug.
Like other drugs, it affects people differently. However, there is a common thread among most people's reaction. You hear the canonical tale of the first time user getting paranoid or getting a case severe munchies. Some people adapt and enjoy it, others have bad reactions.
As someone with more than a passing knowledge of this particular drug, I have observed in myself and others certain common traits. The best description of the effects of pots I can come up with is this:
Both the appeal and the danger of marijuana lie in the "attachment" or "tightening" that comes with it. You really "get into" whatever you're doing. You really "enjoy" that 55th Oreo cookie. The craving aspect is legendary.
The thrill comes from an increasedly attached view of the world, so it's seems more exciting - or frightening, depending on "set and setting".
But it can't last. The "loosening: comes from not using it. Followed by the tightenting again. Ask any pot smoker what it's like to smoke again after not using for a while. They all say it's more intense. This contraction/expansion has a jarring effect on the mind.
This attachment is both the point of the drug, as well the danger. The attachment is more than TO the drug. It is the craving thet results FROM the drug as well.
As AA says, there is no pharmacological solution to a spritual problem. But the pharmacological problem may be an opportunity to see the spritual solution that's right in front of our noses.
::
ps. Chuck, why are you shouting?
I certainly agree with this statement because that is essentially what I have experienced myself in regard to my own past addictions. In fact, I wrote a short post about it here.
Jason
These experiences ought not to be provided to children, who should already have enough mind expansion going on around them every day without drugs. But for the young or older adult, some experience with a mind-enhancing agent may indeed be very beneficial.
Occasional "Re-Creational" use of cannabis in safe and unharried environs, I expect, can yield good fruit. A sort of Retreat, if done right. But perhaps such things should be paid for, just as you'd pay for any vacation. Go away to a cannabis ranch for a few days and enjoy the break. Something like that. I think legalization per se would not be good, as too many people would irresponsibly avail themselves of the drug at the wrong time in all the wrong places around the wrong sort of people, &c.
And then, also, there could be medical retreat areas for those in need of cannabis for pain management, etc.
In short, having special drug-enhanced communities or enclaves within which it's legal, but not having the drug legalized generally. I'd be for that, as I put the safety and well-being of people above their desire for variety and the like.
All the best to everybody at this very busy season.
Nirvy
Hi Magwang,
Thanks for a superb 'insiders' description of the effects. I've never done any kind of drugs myself. Never smoked and I dislike the effect alcohol has on me, so I limit it to those 'just can't squirm out of a glass' social occasions. I'm veggie, so I have to cut the long-suffering circle some slack right? It's not a 'moralistic' thing, just where my life has brought me to.
Would you say that this "tightenting" effect makes you feel more alive, or 'more in the situation'? Does the subsequent "loosening" leave you feeling dull? I ask because this is the effect of my Anapanasati / thregchod style meditation (but in reverse).
I start of with a certain level of tightness and then 'relax' out into a spaciousness which is pure relief. Coming back from meditation - into daily life - the tightness feels tedious and unpleasant (dukkha I think Buddha called it).
So, it's strange to see a mirror process described. I am coming to the conclusion that there is only this process within our consciousness - tightening and loosening. It's what we do with it that makes the difference.
Regards
Kris
I used to use marijuana for pain management and it was amazingly effective for my nerve pain. I don't use it anymore though, because I just can't meditate when I'm high on it and if something interferes with my meditating it's a deal breaker. Period.
But I would never prevent others who experience pain from injury or disease from using it for relief. Ever. I think that's horribly cruel. Especially because it's so amazingly effective for so many things like the terrible effects of chemo, HIV/AIDS, glaucoma and arthritis. In fact, my brother uses it for his arthritis. He's kind of a genius, makes flight simulators for a huge company in Montreal. But his arthritis is completely debilitating and he credits the marijuana with allowing him to continue working. He's 50 and he'll be able to retire within the next ten years. He's not a Buddhist, though. But a very spiritual guy nonetheless.
I think making a medicinal drug illegal is the height of ignorance and cruelty.
To the subject of cannabis and pain control we should add the value of cannabinoids (THC) as an anti-emetic. I am sure that Deb would confirm that the cocktail of chemotherapy drugs used in the treatment of cancers causes violent and crippling nausea and vomiting. When discussing the management of this problem with my late wife's oncologist, he suggested that the use of herbal cannabis was far more effective than any of the available legitimate medication. "But we haven't had this conversation," he added. As I cared far more for Chris than for some temporary and recent legislation, we tried it and it worked.
When I consider the matter, I am struck by the fact that tobacco and alcohol, known to be among the most addictive substances, provide vast revenues to governments which get all moralistic about other chemicals. Could it be the classic attitude of the drug dealer towards competition? Do we really want to live under the aegis of 'drug baron' governments?
Yes, I can confirm Simon's comment about cemo and what it does to it's patients....
I also have it on very good authority that when you take the prescribed medications from a physician and even use them all in combination as prescribed that they do not always work to stop the violent and crippling nausea and vomiting.... Cannabis far out weights all the others even combined and it works....and I can't imagine how patients who do not have access to cannabis when going thro cemo make it....
Bless their hearts...........
I think it is safe to say from what I personally have seen over the last 8 months is that without it....
It's very possible ppl I know would not have made it thro.......
A person told me a few months ago........his thoughts on cemo and raditation.....(I may have stated them before on another thread but I will state them again now)
They take you to the brink of death, and right before they kill you, they stop, and they say to you... ok, now, try and get better......
What Simon and I have seen and many others also.....Should never have to see and ppl should not have to live it.......But they do and isn't it sad that something so so simple can make their lives better and give them some much needed relief is illegal.
Shame on our governments for forcing so many ppl to suffer more than they should have to....and the ones who step outside the law should not have to fear being arrested......They already have enough on their plates to deal with.......just trying to make it thro another minute of another day.....
I've never been great with words but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.......
with a tear in my eye, remembering what our loved ones have had to go thro...
I will now step off my soap box
Deb
Drug trafficking funds terrorism.
Nor would it solve the problem for any one government to go alone, short of a global agreement to legalise.
---
If our governments stopped making money through the sale of addictive substances to us, would they be able to make terror-war?
According to what account does a government make money from addictive substances?
The tax on tobacco and alcohol helps to cover the cost of eventual medical treatment, not to mention countless ancillary costs to the government that would of course occur anyway. Legislation to prohibit is notoriously ineffective.
---
I recently had to do research on gathering the contact names of as many SA airlines as I could, in order to invite them to a specific exhibition relating to Air/ground safety equipment, and four SA airlines have directors who are also connected to the Governments, or in Politics there. Two airlines had their licenses and activities currently suspended, because these said Directors are being araigned on money laundering and drug-smuggling charges.
Governments make money from addictive substances, but don't for one moment believe that a fair proportion of profits garnered from Alcohol or tobacco sales goes on curing or treating these apposite addicitions. In fact, I would suggest that as an awful lot of Hospitals in the UK are reluctant - and on occasions, refusing - to treat patients with alcohol or tobacco-related illnesses, unless they give them up, because costs to continue treatment are prohibitive, it's possible that funds provided by the Government, from relevant sales, are woefully inadequate.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_company_file/459157.stm
Drug trafficking funds terrorism because it is illegal and a black market has grown around it. If it was decriminalized, then we would be capable of controlling its source. Your argument about a world agreement being the only way to impact the funding terrorism gets from drug trafficking seems to be without basis, imo. Any amount of money that is no longer filling terrorist pockets seems like a good thing to me.
_/\_
"Here, we NEED the income brought in by these taxes on cigarettes. It funds the art museums and even builds our sports stadiums. But smoking is evil and unhealthy and we are going to make a government mandate barring smoking in any restaurants. Because we care about your health!"
Such hypocrisy.
The black market to smuggle untaxed tobacco and alcohol is considerable, and guess who profits from that?
For a while there was virtually no enforcement of drug laws in Amsterdam and nobody was better pleased by that than the IRA, to use as a safe haven to distribute from, nor did it do so much for the social fabric of the Netherlands.