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One is but a continuation of the life matter that has been passed down in an unbroken chain for a millinia. To be born is to bring forth something from nothing. Our flesh will decay in an attempt to rejoin that from which it came (okay embalming has mucked up the whole system of the continuous life cycle). True we do not leave our flesh to be eaten by animals, nor do we have our bones ground into meal to return to the life process of the earth. Each person in some sense has existed within the predessors before them.
unless Palzang spills the beans on the Kagu reincarnation / rigpa stuff and we all crack that Bardo / rainbow body thing!
All right, I'll do it. So here it is. Listen carefully for it's the only time.
When Karmapa XVI lay dying (in Zion, Illinois, of all places), one of his Western students was very upset, crying and carrying on. He called the person to his bedside and said, "Nothing is happening!"
All right, I'll do it. So here it is. Listen carefully for it's the only time.
When Karmapa XVI lay dying (in Zion, Illinois, of all places), one of his Western students was very upset, crying and carrying on. He called the person to his bedside and said, "Nothing is happening!"
I believe it was Samuel Johnson who once called out people who claimed not to fear death. He said that any such person would quickly forget what they said if you put a pistol to his heart. I think he's still right. I mean sure, we can convince ourselves in our minds that "nothing dies" and that there is nothing to die. But I think when faced with the actual prospect of death, the majority of sane people will do anything to avoid it.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
....But I think when faced with the actual prospect of death, the majority of sane people will do anything to avoid it.
I'd like to see quite how they'd do it....:D
As the modified saying, goes -
"What doesn't kill you - merely delays the inevitable...!"
And as has been said already, it's not necessarily the dying, it's the 'how'....
I really am truly not in the slightest bit scared of dying. Really, I'm not.
It's the manner of it that causes me consternation.....
Presents a lovely picture doesn't it? A terrorist or bank robber or other malfactor holding a pistol to my head, threatening to shoot and I do a Gene Wilder in Stir Crazy on him or her "Oh please do. You don't know how often I have failed at suicide. Whoopee. Oh thank you Sir. I go to a better place. Oh thank you thank you thank you"
As the modified saying, goes -
"What doesn't kill you - merely delays the inevitable...!"
And as has been said already, it's not necessarily the dying, it's the 'how'....
I really am truly not in the slightest bit scared of dying. Really, I'm not.
It's the manner of it that causes me consternation.....
You kill me, Fede!
Palzang
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Actually it matters a lot what goes on between "conception and destruction" as the karma we create in this life plants the seeds for our future lives. We can plant the seeds of happiness, or we can plant the seeds of suffering. Our choice.
Palzang
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2008
I think we have a tendency to plant both.
It's the ones I water and feed.....
Talking on the topic of death, there was a religious current events, topical programme on TV this morning (hey, guess what? It IS sunday, after all!) and there was an article on how difficult it is for people to dispose of the remains of realtives, when they die in hospital, because Doctors need the vital organsm and they approach the families about donation, and how hard it is for people to come to terms with such a loss, and I thought -
"Don't even hesitate, yes, yes, yes, if anyone can use it, give it away.....! In fact, offer it before it's asked!"
How do others feel about the topic of organ donation?
have you let your family know what your wishes are....?
To my mind, in a way, it makes 'dying' or the thought of it, even easier... knowing that someone somewhere will feel better for my dying, and might actually live longer. At least, it would make a difference......
Absolutely - I'm leaving my entire body to medical science - I won't need it. Anyone who wants to can have a memorial service for me - then they won't have the hassle and expense of disposing of my remains.
Absolutely - I'm leaving my entire body to medical science - I won't need it. Anyone who wants to can have a memorial service for me - then they won't have the hassle and expense of disposing of my remains.
Absolutely - I'm leaving my entire body to medical science - I won't need it. Anyone who wants to can have a memorial service for me - then they won't have the hassle and expense of disposing of my remains.
Ditto. My family already knows to donate anything that can be of use and then give the rest to a medical or forensic school or whoever can use it most. We're meeting at my sister's house this month to get it all down in writing and to make sure everything else is sorted out for the family. My sister wants the same things for herself, too. Neither one of us wants anyone to have to pay for funerals or disposal.
If I die young I imagine there may be a few who might want to have some kind of memorial and if so I hope it will be a happy affair with lots of food and music and someone to read some of the more accessible Buddhist teachings. Maybe I should stipulate that in the living will...hmmm. I'll have to think about it.
There's also the question of flowers because my great great grandfather, when he arrived from County Cavan in 1847 escaping the Famine, built and established a retail flower business (greenhouses, plants, cut flowers etc.) that was handed down for the next 6 generations. We all grew up in the business and although my other sister lost it due to poor management I still like to have as many flowers around as possible when someone dies. For me, the flowers are a major part of funerals not only because I worked with them all my life but because of what it means when people express their emotions and their feelings toward others with flowers. I find the offer of flowers to be an almost heart breakingly beautiful expression of love, respect and admiration, particularly at the time of a death. But even the simple act of offering a handful of wild flowers to someone, maybe someone you're fond of, speaks so sweetly to me. You don't have to say anything when you offer flowers because they say so much more than humans can ever put into words. It's such a simple act with such profound significance and I can't stand the thought of a flowerless funeral or memorial service. I imagine my sister feels the same way (she's not the one who lost the business after almost 150 years). (Was that slightly bitter? )
(Okay, maybe I'm still a little bitter about the whole thing. We were the oldest family florist in North America. My great great grandfather established the business in 1851. That's more than a decade before the American Civil War. More than 15 years before Canada became an actual country of its own. It was quite a long time ago. I used to be really proud of that fact.)
(The whole thing's quite tragic, really. Losing the business the way we did. I worked my ass off for that business. 90 hour weeks. 7am to 7pm, home for a few hours of sleep and back on the bus at 2am to finish work on weddings due for delivery the next morning. I worked like that because I thought the business would be passed down to me one day. She always promised she would give it to me for a dollar when she wanted to get out of the business in a few years. But I was preparing for Easter one day and the bailiffs just showed up to change the locks. My sister never gave me any warning. None. We were bankrupt and she never even warned me. It was horrible. I was destitute as well. Had to give up my apartment and go live with my friend Steph in her apartment on the floor in the corner of her living room. It was horrible. When I look back on it I think I was in shock for a few months after it happened.)
(Why the hell am I saying all this?? :wtf:)
(I'm over it anyway. Really. I am.) (:D) (See, this is what I was talking about when I said I used to get caught in loops of self pity. Thank goodness I never do THAT anymore!)
I'm not sure (on the matter of organ donation after death). If I let my emotions speak, I border on selfishness if I say that I'd like to keep my body intact. I think that's where my haemophobia comes in. I really don't like to see something out of place - in terms of body parts. I pretty much look like this: :eek::eek::eek: if I so much as paper-cut myself.
On karma though, I doubt that I subscribe to that although I am aware many strands of Buddhism nowadays do believe it. I just think of a blankness after death. Nothing. In terms of my Self as I know it now (I'm not a Buddhist, so I don't see it as an entirely fluid concept), I don't think there's a life after death for it. For me, I live once and that's it. Except maybe part of my sentience and soul disintegrates and becomes distributed in the generations of others after me. I have a friend who believes in something like this too, although I don't think he believes in the existence of soul.
And I read today about extremist monks taking up arms in certain parts of the world. It seems so incongruous... :-/
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2008
I feel I should share a morsel of 'goodness' that Nick, my partner came out with...
He's not the most demonstrative of chaps... no midnight flights to Paris for dinner for two on top of the Eiffel Tower... No sudden discoveries of a diamond ring in my glass of champagne.... But when I told him about 'organ donation', this is how it went:
N: Noooooo! you can't give you away!
F: Well, I've got no use for it... and neither would you....! It would go where it is useful.. every bit of it, kneecaps, bones, organs, the lot!
N: Not the heart.
F: What do you mean, not the heart?
N: The heart belongs to me....
(small interval, giggling at how he'd keep it in a jar by the bed, until he decides to put it into a casserole....)
N: well, actually, I suppose they could use the heart. But I'd have to approve the recipient. They'd have to be nice....
F: Now now, be kind....
N: there again, anyone receiving your heart, would automatically become a nicer person, wouldn't they....? They'd have to, with your heart....
Just once - just for once - I really didn't know what to say......
There was a programme on UKTV, some time ago researching organ donation, and absorption by the 'receiver' of the donor's likes, dislikes and characteristics.... apparently it is not as far-fetched as it might first seem....
So, if we ARE going to 'give it all away'.... we owe it to the recipients to be nice, and to be kind.
I feel I should share a morsel of 'goodness' that Nick, my partner came out with...
He's not the most demonstrative of chaps... no midnight flights to Paris for dinner for two on top of the Eiffel Tower... No sudden discoveries of a diamond ring in my glass of champagne.... But when I told him about 'organ donation', this is how it went:
N: Noooooo! you can't give you away!
F: Well, I've got no use for it... and neither would you....! It would go where it is useful.. every bit of it, kneecaps, bones, organs, the lot!
N: Not the heart.
F: What do you mean, not the heart?
N: The heart belongs to me....
(small interval, giggling at how he'd keep it in a jar by the bed, until he decides to put it into a casserole....)
N: well, actually, I suppose they could use the heart. But I'd have to approve the recipient. They'd have to be nice....
F: Now now, be kind....
N: there again, anyone receiving your heart, would automatically become a nicer person, wouldn't they....? They'd have to, with your heart....
Just once - just for once - I really didn't know what to say......
There was a programme on UKTV, some time ago researching organ donation, and absorption by the 'receiver' of the donor's likes, dislikes and characteristics.... apparently it is not as far-fetched as it might first seem....
So, if we ARE going to 'give it all away'.... we owe it to the recipients to be nice, and to be kind.
lol
Wow that's sweet.
About the transference.. that's quite cool. A motivation to be nicer, in case somebody gets my bone marrow or something.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Personally, I find it useful when I see monks getting down and dirty with the rest of us! Although the Noble Sangha is an inspiration, it is also an aspiration, and ideal. It is axiomatic that the Noble Truths will apply.
So, for me, there was a real mixture of emotions when I saw newsreel of supporters of one of the Karmapas attacking supporters of the other and battle ensuing. I really had to sit and examine what it was that I believed about monastics and which I needed to re-examine.
At first, it was a mix of outraged abandonment and schadenfreude - "There you are. They say they're better than us but they're just as bad! And that makes them worse than us!"
But then I had to match that against my direct encounters with monastics because I recognise that personal contact is the 'touchstone' for me rather than reports or analyses or media, all of which is filtered. Among the monks and nuns whom I had met, there were some of the most heart-warming people I knew. Above all, of course, were my encounters in Dharamsala, Prinknash Abbey, Blackfriars and so on which I knew personally.
These people, the men and women I had met, would they go out into street and demonstrate? Would they take up arms? And what would change in my attitude if they did? And, if they are truly my teachers and role models, what new teachings would such actions bring me?
I continue to ask the questions, both about the Sangha and about the Churches. I want to confront the questions because I think that they point to a whole raft of questions about our responsibility for each other and for the world at large.
yeah, they were monks. Although I'm not sure if they're Chinese - or even if some might consider them undeserving of the title 'monk'. Ehh.. that's what the paper said. But someone on this site (can't remember who lol) very wisely said not to trust the newspapers. Especially since this one was a tabloid.
Having trumpetted on here that I am not afraid of death, and that my decision to leave my body to medical science was the right one for me ......... I am about to make an admission.
I realised the other day that when my bag was stolen when a thief broke into our van in Spain (we were in there asleep!) I had also lost my donor card which I have to carry on me at all times. :eek:
So last night I sat down and wrote out the form of words necessary for the Faculty of Medicine at Besançon.
It's easy to think with your head and say "What use is my body to me when I am dead? What better gift than to let medical students learn from it and maybe save loads of lives? Funerals are for the living, not the dead so why not tell people they can have a memorial service it they want to. Who needs a body?"
But I tell you friends - looking at that letter sitting on my desk waiting to be posted brings it all home to one - one's own fragility - the fact that from now on I must remember to have that card on me at all times so if I die suddenly my body can be whisked away for preservation. Mortality and the precariousness of life hits home big time.
So my head is congratulating me on a good decision and my heart is suffering the odd shudder - just to share.
Speaking of which, I got some info from a local funeral parlour about leaving my body to a medical school and now I'm in a bit of a quandary. The medical school in the nearest city would be happy to accept my body but only if there hasn't been an autopsy performed and no organs have been removed except for the eyes. I wanted to help someone, maybe give someone a new life, you know?
So I'm not going to do anything about it until I speak with my doctor. I want to ask him if he thinks any of my organs would be useful for donation anyway. If he says there won't be much anyone can use then I'll go ahead and give the school my remains. All my family will have to pay is the transportation of the body to the medical school about an hour away. All other expenses, like cremation after three years and interment in a special section of the university gardens are assumed by the university. If my family decides they want to keep my ashes all they'd have to do is wait the three years after which the body will be cremated by the university and the ashes given back to my family. Or if my family wants the ashes interred in the gardens at the university, a special memorial service is held every year for all those who have given their remains to the university and family members and friends are welcomed.
So, strange as this may sound, I'm hoping my doctor tells me my organs are pretty much useless for harvest. Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd write...
So, strange as this may sound, I'm hoping my doctor tells me my organs are pretty much useless for harvest. Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd write...
You remind me of a wonderful poem by that strange eccentric Edith Sitwell:
Why do they weep for those in the silent Tomb,
Dropping their tears like grain? Her heart, that honeycomb
Thick Darkness, like a bear devours...See, all the gold is gone!
The cell of the honeycomb is six-sided...But there, in five cells of the senses,
Is stored all their gold...Where is it now? Only the wind of the Tomb can know.
But I feared not that stilled and chilling breath
Among the dust...Love is not changed by Death,
And nothing is lost and all in the end is harvest. "Eurydice"
I used to be an organ donor and carried the card for everything to be recycled but then I heard that over here, not many people leave their whole corpse (some Catholic thing) so I decided that was a better to give the students something to play with.
My reasoning was that someone who learns on my old carcass might go on to develop some live-saving surgery or process or at least not make huge mess-ups with living people
I've also said that my family (all one of him) doesn't want the body back - he can assemble anyone interested and have a party ..... it's Queen's Don't Stop Me Now, if anyone wants to know the music.
Comments
Best laugh I've had all day
As to the moment itself, I want it to be quick and sudden on my 120th birthday and I want my wife to be so upset that she has to drop out of college.
Tell me... what do you think you'd be dying of... with a smile on your face, no doubt....?
All right, I'll do it. So here it is. Listen carefully for it's the only time.
When Karmapa XVI lay dying (in Zion, Illinois, of all places), one of his Western students was very upset, crying and carrying on. He called the person to his bedside and said, "Nothing is happening!"
OK, there it is.
Palzang
Hey, there we are then. A bit kind of Zen like.
Kris
I'd like to see quite how they'd do it....:D
As the modified saying, goes -
"What doesn't kill you - merely delays the inevitable...!"
And as has been said already, it's not necessarily the dying, it's the 'how'....
I really am truly not in the slightest bit scared of dying. Really, I'm not.
It's the manner of it that causes me consternation.....
You kill me, Fede!
Palzang
(Think Victoria Wood - for those UK-ians who know....!!)
Can't .......... I'm laughing too much - whenever I think of Victoria Wood, all I can think of is her comedy song "Let's do it"
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=OZCIKjYDf1g
I know, it's terribly off-topic, and I shouldn't really allow it - but heck, we're all friends here....hopefully you can all let it pass...!
It's very funny!!
I said to someone before that everyone deserves to die.
After a lifetime of toil,
or a lifetime of laziness,
a lifetime of joy,
a lifetime of sadness, suffering etc..
It doesn't matter what goes on between conception and destruction (I'm not dismissing existentialism though), because everybody dies anyway.
I try to think of it as a reward, although I stop myself if I find myself looking too eagerly towards it. Haha.
Palzang
It's the ones I water and feed.....
Talking on the topic of death, there was a religious current events, topical programme on TV this morning (hey, guess what? It IS sunday, after all!) and there was an article on how difficult it is for people to dispose of the remains of realtives, when they die in hospital, because Doctors need the vital organsm and they approach the families about donation, and how hard it is for people to come to terms with such a loss, and I thought -
"Don't even hesitate, yes, yes, yes, if anyone can use it, give it away.....! In fact, offer it before it's asked!"
How do others feel about the topic of organ donation?
have you let your family know what your wishes are....?
To my mind, in a way, it makes 'dying' or the thought of it, even easier... knowing that someone somewhere will feel better for my dying, and might actually live longer. At least, it would make a difference......
Very considerate of you.
Thank you. I do try.
If I die young I imagine there may be a few who might want to have some kind of memorial and if so I hope it will be a happy affair with lots of food and music and someone to read some of the more accessible Buddhist teachings. Maybe I should stipulate that in the living will...hmmm. I'll have to think about it.
There's also the question of flowers because my great great grandfather, when he arrived from County Cavan in 1847 escaping the Famine, built and established a retail flower business (greenhouses, plants, cut flowers etc.) that was handed down for the next 6 generations. We all grew up in the business and although my other sister lost it due to poor management I still like to have as many flowers around as possible when someone dies. For me, the flowers are a major part of funerals not only because I worked with them all my life but because of what it means when people express their emotions and their feelings toward others with flowers. I find the offer of flowers to be an almost heart breakingly beautiful expression of love, respect and admiration, particularly at the time of a death. But even the simple act of offering a handful of wild flowers to someone, maybe someone you're fond of, speaks so sweetly to me. You don't have to say anything when you offer flowers because they say so much more than humans can ever put into words. It's such a simple act with such profound significance and I can't stand the thought of a flowerless funeral or memorial service. I imagine my sister feels the same way (she's not the one who lost the business after almost 150 years). (Was that slightly bitter?
(Okay, maybe I'm still a little bitter about the whole thing. We were the oldest family florist in North America. My great great grandfather established the business in 1851. That's more than a decade before the American Civil War. More than 15 years before Canada became an actual country of its own. It was quite a long time ago. I used to be really proud of that fact.)
(The whole thing's quite tragic, really. Losing the business the way we did. I worked my ass off for that business. 90 hour weeks. 7am to 7pm, home for a few hours of sleep and back on the bus at 2am to finish work on weddings due for delivery the next morning. I worked like that because I thought the business would be passed down to me one day. She always promised she would give it to me for a dollar when she wanted to get out of the business in a few years. But I was preparing for Easter one day and the bailiffs just showed up to change the locks. My sister never gave me any warning. None. We were bankrupt and she never even warned me. It was horrible. I was destitute as well. Had to give up my apartment and go live with my friend Steph in her apartment on the floor in the corner of her living room. It was horrible. When I look back on it I think I was in shock for a few months after it happened.)
(Why the hell am I saying all this?? :wtf:)
(I'm over it anyway. Really. I am.) (:D) (See, this is what I was talking about when I said I used to get caught in loops of self pity. Thank goodness I never do THAT anymore!)
For Boo with love
On karma though, I doubt that I subscribe to that although I am aware many strands of Buddhism nowadays do believe it. I just think of a blankness after death. Nothing. In terms of my Self as I know it now (I'm not a Buddhist, so I don't see it as an entirely fluid concept), I don't think there's a life after death for it. For me, I live once and that's it.
And I read today about extremist monks taking up arms in certain parts of the world. It seems so incongruous... :-/
He's not the most demonstrative of chaps... no midnight flights to Paris for dinner for two on top of the Eiffel Tower... No sudden discoveries of a diamond ring in my glass of champagne.... But when I told him about 'organ donation', this is how it went:
N: Noooooo! you can't give you away!
F: Well, I've got no use for it... and neither would you....! It would go where it is useful.. every bit of it, kneecaps, bones, organs, the lot!
N: Not the heart.
F: What do you mean, not the heart?
N: The heart belongs to me....
(small interval, giggling at how he'd keep it in a jar by the bed, until he decides to put it into a casserole....)
N: well, actually, I suppose they could use the heart. But I'd have to approve the recipient. They'd have to be nice....
F: Now now, be kind....
N: there again, anyone receiving your heart, would automatically become a nicer person, wouldn't they....? They'd have to, with your heart....
Just once - just for once - I really didn't know what to say......
There was a programme on UKTV, some time ago researching organ donation, and absorption by the 'receiver' of the donor's likes, dislikes and characteristics.... apparently it is not as far-fetched as it might first seem....
So, if we ARE going to 'give it all away'.... we owe it to the recipients to be nice, and to be kind.
lol
Wow that's sweet.
About the transference.. that's quite cool. A motivation to be nicer, in case somebody gets my bone marrow or something.
Are you sure there are "extremist monks" taking up arms? Or are they Chinese provocateurs?
Palzang
So, for me, there was a real mixture of emotions when I saw newsreel of supporters of one of the Karmapas attacking supporters of the other and battle ensuing. I really had to sit and examine what it was that I believed about monastics and which I needed to re-examine.
At first, it was a mix of outraged abandonment and schadenfreude - "There you are. They say they're better than us but they're just as bad! And that makes them worse than us!"
But then I had to match that against my direct encounters with monastics because I recognise that personal contact is the 'touchstone' for me rather than reports or analyses or media, all of which is filtered. Among the monks and nuns whom I had met, there were some of the most heart-warming people I knew. Above all, of course, were my encounters in Dharamsala, Prinknash Abbey, Blackfriars and so on which I knew personally.
These people, the men and women I had met, would they go out into street and demonstrate? Would they take up arms? And what would change in my attitude if they did? And, if they are truly my teachers and role models, what new teachings would such actions bring me?
I continue to ask the questions, both about the Sangha and about the Churches. I want to confront the questions because I think that they point to a whole raft of questions about our responsibility for each other and for the world at large.
yeah, they were monks. Although I'm not sure if they're Chinese - or even if some might consider them undeserving of the title 'monk'. Ehh.. that's what the paper said. But someone on this site (can't remember who lol) very wisely said not to trust the newspapers. Especially since this one was a tabloid.
I realised the other day that when my bag was stolen when a thief broke into our van in Spain (we were in there asleep!) I had also lost my donor card which I have to carry on me at all times. :eek:
So last night I sat down and wrote out the form of words necessary for the Faculty of Medicine at Besançon.
It's easy to think with your head and say "What use is my body to me when I am dead? What better gift than to let medical students learn from it and maybe save loads of lives? Funerals are for the living, not the dead so why not tell people they can have a memorial service it they want to. Who needs a body?"
But I tell you friends - looking at that letter sitting on my desk waiting to be posted brings it all home to one - one's own fragility - the fact that from now on I must remember to have that card on me at all times so if I die suddenly my body can be whisked away for preservation. Mortality and the precariousness of life hits home big time.
So my head is congratulating me on a good decision and my heart is suffering the odd shudder - just to share.
So I'm not going to do anything about it until I speak with my doctor. I want to ask him if he thinks any of my organs would be useful for donation anyway. If he says there won't be much anyone can use then I'll go ahead and give the school my remains. All my family will have to pay is the transportation of the body to the medical school about an hour away. All other expenses, like cremation after three years and interment in a special section of the university gardens are assumed by the university. If my family decides they want to keep my ashes all they'd have to do is wait the three years after which the body will be cremated by the university and the ashes given back to my family. Or if my family wants the ashes interred in the gardens at the university, a special memorial service is held every year for all those who have given their remains to the university and family members and friends are welcomed.
So, strange as this may sound, I'm hoping my doctor tells me my organs are pretty much useless for harvest. Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd write...
You remind me of a wonderful poem by that strange eccentric Edith Sitwell:
I used to be an organ donor and carried the card for everything to be recycled but then I heard that over here, not many people leave their whole corpse (some Catholic thing) so I decided that was a better to give the students something to play with.
My reasoning was that someone who learns on my old carcass might go on to develop some live-saving surgery or process or at least not make huge mess-ups with living people
I've also said that my family (all one of him) doesn't want the body back - he can assemble anyone interested and have a party ..... it's Queen's Don't Stop Me Now, if anyone wants to know the music.
Simon,
That poem is utterly beautiful!! Just beautiful!